If dealt a hand such as Qs Js 9s 8h 4c, how many penalties are there for the QJ suited? Is the 9s both a straight and a flush penalty?
--Rita
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Penalty Card Question
Rita wrote:
If dealt a hand such as Qs Js 9s 8h 4c, how many penalties are there
for the QJ suited? Is the 9s both a straight and a flush penalty?
Yep, so there are a total of 3 penalties.
- Harry
"If dealt a hand such as Qs Js 9s 8h 4c, how many penalties are
there for the QJ suited? Is the 9s both a straight and a flush
penalty?"
There are many ways to look at penalty cards, and talking about
penalty cards usually give people grief. Try this article by by Dan
Paymar: http://www.casino.com/video-poker/article.asp?id=429
In a traditional 9/6 JOBs game, the 9s will be both a straight and a
flush penalty. The QJ9s is commonly known as 3card-SF w/ 2 High
cards and 1 Gap or 3SF+1 per Liam Daily notation. The correct choice
would be QJ9s > QJs > QJ9s8.
···
--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, <s001vegas@c...> wrote:
If dealt a hand such as Qs Js 9s 8h 4c, how many penalties are
there for the QJ suited? Is the 9s both a straight and a flush
penalty?
--Rita
There are some games where penalty card considerations are
relatively frequent (FPDW, and to a lesser extent, FPJW), and there
are games where the slim positive EV will be forfeited by ignoring
penalty cards (DB). Neither of these factors figure into 9/6 JOB.
Therefore, the effort involved in these sorts of discussions really
only pays off in THEORY. The practical value may be negative (you
may be diverting mental effort, increasing fatigue, etc.).
If you play FPDW without considering penalty cards, you lose a
little less than .2% of total return, dropping you from 100.7% to
100.5% return. This is quite obviously a significant loss. DB has a
similar deficit and in this case, your tiny 0.015% edge is
completely wiped out. The benefit from JOB penalty-card
considerations is only about 0.05 of 1 percent,
If you are playing JOB in the first place, you are shouldering a
negative EV of -0.5%, for whatever reason. Maybe it's the best game
in the house and you are playing for comps or cashback; maybe it's
tagged to a promo of some kind that brings the game positive; or
maybe it's just the best game available and you want to have fun,
and are willing to absorb the small theoretical loss. In most of
these cases it's somewhat contrdictory to spend a huge amount of
mental effort to maximize one's return when that return will still
be negative.
Of course, if you already know the strategy perfectly, and can
handle the mental effort associated with learning penalty rules,
then please go ahead and do so.
···
--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, <s001vegas@c...> wrote:
rockofjello333 wrote:
If you play FPDW without considering penalty cards, you lose a
little less than .2% of total return, dropping you from 100.7% to
100.5% return. This is quite obviously a significant loss. DB has a
similar deficit and in this case, your tiny 0.015% edge is
completely wiped out. The benefit from JOB penalty-card
considerations is only about 0.05 of 1 percent,
"rock", I hope I've shown considerable respect for you here to date.
However, in this case you've gone off your rocker. The cost incurred
in applying a penalty-free strategy to these games is MUCH smaller.
In the case of JOB, for example, I believe the penalty is closer to
.002% (not 25x that), and most likely less than .1% for FPDW. DB is
not turned into a negative game as a consequence of ignoring penalty
cards (and, by the way, where'd that .015% DB edge value come from?
In my book it's been .17%, even when ignoring penalties.)
I'm writing on the fly so I don't have hard facts to back me up just
now. Admittedly, sometimes I wing out a little in left field myself.
But if you want to hold fast to these comments I'll return with a
little ammo.
What I will say with 100% confidence is that if ignoring penalties in
play involved the magnitude of error cost you suggest, Jean Scott
would have never permitted her "Frugal" moniker to be applied to
Frugal Video Poker -- which ONLY presents penalty free strategies.
- Harry
--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "Harry Porter" <harry.porter@v...>
wrote:
"In the case of JOB, for example, I believe the penalty is closer to
.002% (not 25x that), and most likely less than .1% for FPDW. DB is
not turned into a negative game as a consequence of ignoring penalty
cards (and, by the way, where'd that .015% DB edge value come from?
In my book it's been .17%, even when ignoring penalties.)"
I was originally going to repond to Kevin's (rockofjello's) post,
and realized he won't get it. In contrast, people like Harry and
others might use the information.
The following is from Jazbo's website (NOTICE the 100.164% number):
"Full pay" Double Bonus is found many places in Las Vegas (I'd be
interested in hearing sitings of this game in other locales). The
pay table is 1,1,3,5,7,10,[80,50,160],50,800. The Quad pay off is 80
units for Quad 2's, 3's and 4's, 160 units for Quad Aces and 50
units for the rest. My strategy (no penalty decisions required)
gives an expectation of **100.164%** (off optimal by just over
0.005%). This is only slightly positive, but it can be quite
profitable with cash back plus comps.
Now for 9/6 JOB, Jazbo wrote the following:
"My Best Basic strategy for the popular Full Pay (9/6) Jacks or
Better game. It's only 0.00097% below optimal strategy in
expectation." and "Full pay Jacks or Better gives an Expected Value
(EV) of 99.544% when played optimally. ... The bulk of the strategy
is "basic", meaning that it does not require consideration of
penalty cards. The five additional rules to get optimal EV are given
following the basic strategy, but they add only about 0.001% to the
basic strategy, and so can be ignored unless you demand perfection."
As for Deuces Wild, here's Jazbo's comment with 2 penalty card
adjustments:
"Once you get used to it, the strategy for FPDW is pretty easy to
play. Amazingly, I was able to get an EV of 100.761% for my strategy
using only two, fairly simple penalty rules. That's within 0.001% of
optimal. (For a $1 player playing 800 hands an hour at max coins,
the EV difference is less than a nickle an hour!)"
I'm a new video poker player. I just purchased Bob Dancer's program to
teach myself how to play. I'm concentrating on Double Bonus. It's been
very frustrating. I don't know when to hold a three flush, for example,
especially if two of the cards are part of a royal. Also, it's difficult to
know when to hold another high card with an Ace. I've figured out that if
there's no other card of the same suit as the Ace in the original hand, then
the correct strategy is to just hold the ace instead of holding the ace and
another high card. I had hoped that the program would come with a
pre-figured strategy available to be printed out, but it doesn't. Does
anyone know where I can find an accurate strategy for this game on the
internet? Thanks in advance!
Irv
I'm a new video poker player. I just purchased Bob Dancer's program to
teach myself how to play. I'm concentrating on Double Bonus. It's been
very frustrating. I don't know when to hold a three flush, for example,
especially if two of the cards are part of a royal. Also, it's
difficult to
know when to hold another high card with an Ace. I've figured out
that if
there's no other card of the same suit as the Ace in the original
hand, then
the correct strategy is to just hold the ace instead of holding the
ace and
another high card. I had hoped that the program would come with a
pre-figured strategy available to be printed out, but it doesn't. Does
anyone know where I can find an accurate strategy for this game on the
internet? Thanks in advance!Irv
DB is a difficult game to master, If there are any other decent games
to play in your area you might consider learning one of them first.
On to you question. VP Strategy Master is the compliment of WinPoker.
It prints out strategys for most common VP games, although they are
coming out so fast it is hard to keep up/track. It also allows you to
change the values of the paytables to exactly match those in your
local casinos. This is very helpful when you have an error and are
not sure why. I also like to look at the 'details' when I have an
error in WinPoker and that usually will help me figure out if there
was some penalty or other factor I overlooked. Also you can adjust
the error sensitivity of WinPoker, so that errors of x.xx value and
lower are ignored, althought you dont want to raise it too much.
Have fun, and hope this was helpfull
Jim
···
--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "Irv Siegel" <isiegel@s...> wrote:
double bonus strategy:
4RF>PAT>4SF>HP>4FL>
3RF>4STo>MP>JT9s>QJ9s>
3SF0>4STi3H>
3FL2H>3SF1>2RF2H>
4STi2H>KQJ>QJT>QJ>
4STi1H>JTs>3SF2>3FL1H>
2H>QTs>1H>4STi>3FL
frugal vp: er=100.14% variance=27
--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "rockofjello333" <rockofjello333@y...>
wrote:
···
--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, <s001vegas@c...> wrote:
> If dealt a hand such as Qs Js 9s 8h 4c, how many penalties are
there for the QJ suited? Is the 9s both a straight and a flush
penalty?
> --Rita
>
There are some games where penalty card considerations are
relatively frequent (FPDW, and to a lesser extent, FPJW), and there
are games where the slim positive EV will be forfeited by ignoring
penalty cards (DB). Neither of these factors figure into 9/6 JOB.
Therefore, the effort involved in these sorts of discussions really
only pays off in THEORY. The practical value may be negative (you
may be diverting mental effort, increasing fatigue, etc.).If you play FPDW without considering penalty cards, you lose a
little less than .2% of total return, dropping you from 100.7% to
100.5% return. This is quite obviously a significant loss. DB has a
similar deficit and in this case, your tiny 0.015% edge is
completely wiped out. The benefit from JOB penalty-card
considerations is only about 0.05 of 1 percent,If you are playing JOB in the first place, you are shouldering a
negative EV of -0.5%, for whatever reason. Maybe it's the best game
in the house and you are playing for comps or cashback; maybe it's
tagged to a promo of some kind that brings the game positive; or
maybe it's just the best game available and you want to have fun,
and are willing to absorb the small theoretical loss. In most of
these cases it's somewhat contrdictory to spend a huge amount of
mental effort to maximize one's return when that return will still
be negative.Of course, if you already know the strategy perfectly, and can
handle the mental effort associated with learning penalty rules,
then please go ahead and do so.
--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "Harry Porter" <harry.porter@v...>
wrote:
In the case of JOB, for example, I believe the penalty is closer to
.002% (not 25x that), and most likely less than .1% for FPDW. DB
is
not turned into a negative game as a consequence of ignoring
penalty
cards (and, by the way, where'd that .015% DB edge value come
from?
In my book it's been .17%, even when ignoring penalties.)
I'm writing on the fly so I don't have hard facts to back me up
just
now.
Harry; Here is an incomplete but pretty representative sample of
maximum return versus the return without pen cards, and the diff.
A/A 100.722/100.718 -.004
9/6 BP 99.642/99.640 - .002
10/7 DB 100.173/100.167 - .006
10/6 DDB 100.067/100.065 - .002
FPDW 100.762/100.758 - .004
9/6 JB 99.544/99.543 - .001
KBJW 100.646/100.633 - .013
15/8 LD 100.150/100.145 - .005
9/5 Super DB 99.695/99.692 - .003
These differences are not worth consideration IMHO, and as ROJ/KL
suggests, dealing with them may actually be counterproductive and
introduce more errors with a greater cost.
Games like Two pair Joker Poker and Double Joker Poker are affected
more by pens. I think a limited pen card strategy is best for those
two games.
Skip
Skip Hughes wrote:
Harry; Here is an incomplete but pretty representative sample of
maximum return versus the return without pen cards, and the diff.A/A 100.722/100.718 -.004
9/6 BP 99.642/99.640 - .002
10/7 DB 100.173/100.167 - .006
10/6 DDB 100.067/100.065 - .002
FPDW 100.762/100.758 - .004
9/6 JB 99.544/99.543 - .001
KBJW 100.646/100.633 - .013
15/8 LD 100.150/100.145 - .005
9/5 Super DB 99.695/99.692 - .003
Thanks, Skip. I was hoping you might chime in in short order while I
was away. In a quick scramble for relevant facts I'm notoriously
inaccurate.
So, a few wordy comments I didn't have time for earlier:
As you suggest, there's little mileage to be gained from taking
penalty cards into account in your play strategy.
I'll fault WinPoker for leading many novice to intermediate players to
prematurely look to tackle penalty considerations, likely to their
detriment.
Speaking for myself, I'm hardly a pro player. Even under the best of
circumstances I'm sacrificing at least .05% to play errors -- not
because I don't have the strategy down but because I suffer modest
attention lapses that invoke relatively costly errors each hour. The
cost of those errors far overwhelms any advantage from correct penalty
play.
Maybe I'm just a sloppy player because I'm surprised at the number of
players who highly stress penalties. Trust me when I say I envy their
play prowess.
(And I haven't even touched on those games that I play infrequently
for which my error cost is reasonably shoddy at .2%+ until I've spent
numerous hours recapturing a decent basic strategy proficiency.)
···
------
The greatest contribution Frugal VP has made to the scene has been a
an aid that accomodates penalty-free strategy play. It's a godsend.
I hope to unleash my wife onto All American at some point and you can
bet I won't let her within a mile's distance of winpoker. Just
listening to her dealing with the basic penalties flagged in her FPDW
practice when first learning it was enough to turn a seasoned sailor's
face red.
I'm not the biggest fan of the general play interface in FVP, but I
heartily recommend it to any novice/intermediate player.
- Harry
<< I had hoped that the program would come with a
pre-figured strategy available to be printed out, but it doesn't.>>
This is one of the good things about Frugal VP software and why I recommend it so highly. It has a good tutor feature AND generates strategies you can print out to take to the casino with you - all in one program.
Plus, as Harry pointed out, you can play in either a "perfect" strategy mode or one that does not gig you on small errors due to penalty card situations. That encourages peace in a family of players who have different goals/standards - Brad used to just hate when he was gigged on WinPoker and I would hear it even when I was in another room! "Now just how many pennies would that cost me per hour - I have enough money to skip this aggravation!!!"
···
________________________________________
Jean $¢ott - Go to http://www.FrugalGambler.biz
for VP software and strategy cards and for the
Frugal series of books.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Jean Scott wrote:
That encourages peace in a family of players who have different
goals/standards - Brad used to just hate when he was gigged on
WinPoker and I would hear it even when I was in another room! "Now
just how many pennies would that cost me per hour - I have enough
money to skip this aggravation!!!"
···
------
Brad truly is a gentle soul, Jean.
Don't get me wrong: Bev is the epitome of grace, wit, and kindness
under most circumstances. But you don't want to piss her off.
Winpoker in her hands posed a true threat to the longevity of our PC.
- H.
vpFREE to the rescue......
Go to the following link, scroll to the bottom and you will find the Video Poker Strategy Master (VPSM) Basic strategy.
http://members.cox.net/vpfree/CDDB.htm
Regards
A.P.
···
----- Original Message -----
From: Irv Siegel
To: vpFREE@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Tuesday, October 12, 2004 12:40 PM
Subject: Re: [vpFREE] Re: Penalty Card Question (Harry & 10-7 DB et al)
I'm a new video poker player. I just purchased Bob Dancer's program to
teach myself how to play. I'm concentrating on Double Bonus. It's been
very frustrating. I don't know when to hold a three flush, for example,
especially if two of the cards are part of a royal. Also, it's difficult to
know when to hold another high card with an Ace. I've figured out that if
there's no other card of the same suit as the Ace in the original hand, then
the correct strategy is to just hold the ace instead of holding the ace and
another high card. I had hoped that the program would come with a
pre-figured strategy available to be printed out, but it doesn't. Does
anyone know where I can find an accurate strategy for this game on the
internet? Thanks in advance!
Irv
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
I reccommend going to http://gamblingtools.net
I'm a new video poker player. I just purchased Bob Dancer's
program to
teach myself how to play. I'm concentrating on Double Bonus. It's
been
very frustrating. I don't know when to hold a three flush, for
example,
especially if two of the cards are part of a royal. Also, it's
difficult to
know when to hold another high card with an Ace. I've figured out
that if
there's no other card of the same suit as the Ace in the original
hand, then
the correct strategy is to just hold the ace instead of holding the
ace and
another high card. I had hoped that the program would come with a
pre-figured strategy available to be printed out, but it doesn't.
Does
anyone know where I can find an accurate strategy for this game on
the
···
--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "Irv Siegel" <isiegel@s...> wrote:
internet? Thanks in advance!
Irv
Irv Siegel wrote:
I'm a new video poker player. I just purchased Bob Dancer's
program to teach myself how to play. I'm concentrating on Double
Bonus. It's been very frustrating. I don't know when to hold a
three flush, for example, especially if two of the cards are part of
a royal. Also, it's difficult to know when to hold another high
card with an Ace.
Irv,
I did a quick readthrough of your post and I've only now realized that
you are learning with winpoker without the benefit of strategy card.
I'll add to the previous replies by saying that no one should
contemplate learning a game without a strategy card in hand.
Alternatively, you should wear a good crash helmet because it's
inevitable you'll do a lot of head banging against the wall.
There are a number of strategy card sets available on the market.
However, my preference has been to prepare cards using the software
that Jim mentioned in his post -- VP Strategy Master (VPSM).
It has the advantage of not only being able to prepare tailored cards
without paying out sizable fees for commercially prepared strategies
for each game you're interested in, but you can also prepare optimized
strategies to get the most out of your progressive vp play (playing
more aggressively for a high RF meter, for example, maximizing your EV).
The software is available from a number of sources. I recommend Dean
Zamzow's website (WinPoker developer):
http://www.zamzone.com/tomski/VPSM.asp
For those who demand immediate gratification (guess who? ;), there's
an option to immediately download the software. (Just copy the
install file to a floppy and you've got a backup in the event of a
disk crash.) Alternatively, you can have a CD-ROM shipped to you.
The software produces both a basic strategy, ignoring penalty
considerations, and also an advanced strategy - which will tell you
exactly how to handle those close calls where the presence of another
card can shift things just enough to make an alternative hold the best
by a thin margin.
···
------
It again bears noting that Frugal VP holds a couple of advantages over
WinPoker.
Frugal VP incorporates a strategy card facility within the software.
Not only can you prepared a printed card directly from the software
but you can also reference the card right on the screen as you practive.
Also, as previously noted, FVP has two practice modes -- one of which
ignores penalty card considerations and determines optimal hold
strictly according to basic strategy. This can be a great relief
during practice vs. winpoker practice, where the flagging of penalty
related errors can only be avoided through very meticulous tweaking of
error flagging thresholds -- a haphazard task at best.
A perfect play mode will still allow you to challenge yourself to
penalty card perfect play.
You can purchase FVP from: http://www.frugalgambler.biz/
-----------
Personally, I'm a creature of habit. I cut my teeth on WinPoker and
VPSM before the much more recent advent of FVP and I strongly prefer
WinPoker graphics. So, I largely continue to use these, although FVP
includes some great advanced analysis tools that I wouldn't do without.
On the other hand, FVP is the tool of choice for my less experienced
wife, particularly with any game where penalty cards frequently come
into play (which she has no desire to deal with ;).
- Harry
Thank you to everyone who replied to my messages. I received some valuable
information
Irv
···
----- Original Message -----
From: "Irv Siegel" <isiegel@sbcglobal.net>
To: <vpFREE@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Tuesday, October 12, 2004 9:40 AM
Subject: Re: [vpFREE] Re: Penalty Card Question (Harry & 10-7 DB et al)
I'm a new video poker player. I just purchased Bob Dancer's program to
teach myself how to play. I'm concentrating on Double Bonus. It's been
very frustrating. I don't know when to hold a three flush, for example,
especially if two of the cards are part of a royal. Also, it's difficult
to
know when to hold another high card with an Ace. I've figured out that if
there's no other card of the same suit as the Ace in the original hand,
then
the correct strategy is to just hold the ace instead of holding the ace
and
another high card. I had hoped that the program would come with a
pre-figured strategy available to be printed out, but it doesn't. Does
anyone know where I can find an accurate strategy for this game on the
internet? Thanks in advance!Irv
vpFREE Links: http://members.cox.net/vpfree/Links.htm
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