Bounce-back has been cut back drastically on mailers. Brad and I went from $400 a month to $75 although we played more than usual recently!!!!! Have heard about cuts on all levels, not just the higher ones.
Must be a new Sherman's-march-to-the-sea policy at the Palms?
________________________________________
Jean $�ott
"FRUGAL VIDEO POKER" - Pre-pub
orders for this new book now taken at
http://www.FrugalGambler.biz
Bounce-back has been cut back drastically on mailers. Brad and I
went from
$400 a month to $75 although we played more than usual
recently!!!!!
Same thing with me...cut from $280 down to $120...
Don the Dentist
--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "Jean Scott" <QueenofComps@...> wrote:
Jean wrote: Bounce-back has been cut back drastically on mailers. Brad
and I went from
$400 a month to $75 although we played more than usual recently!!!!! .
. . Must be a new Sherman's-march-to-the-sea policy at the Palms?
I've always wondered what makes one statement by Jean worth five
exclamation points, while others are only worth three or four, or
possibly even a question mark. If one of her former students only used
three exclamation points on a sentence like that, do you think she
slashed his/her grade?
Anyway, what's different about the Palms is the promotions that have
been run recently. In June/July (which affects the September mailers)
they had a slot marathon and a 2x-cash-back+sunglasses promotion, among
other things. A number of players who haven't played there a lot
recently played $2+ million or more during those events. That changed
the dynamics of what it took to get the highest mailers this month.
It's a guess, but I've always assumed that the $400 or $450 (do they
have those anymore?) mailers go to the top x% during the current period
--- while the definition of "x" and what all is taken into consideration
is somewhat of a secret. (Some players here have passed along tips
they've heard from various sources. Thank you very much, Brian et al.)
If you have played your normal amount or even a little more during a
particular 3-month period, and dozens of others played a LOT more due to
the promotions, you are going to be bumped downward. Not because the
casino is changing their rules but merely because you are no longer in
the top x%.
In August and September, with multiple uncapped 3x point days for
EVERYBODY, I expect the minimum requirements for the top mailers in the
future to be MUCH higher than they've been in the past. I suspect the
Palms is banking on these points being considered valuable by players,
many of whom will never spend them once they accumulate them.
For people who want to know a fixed number of dollars to play there to
get a certain level of mailer, I think you're bound to find that quest
elusive. It varies considerably from month to month, depending on what
everyone else is playing. And what everybody else is playing depends on
the promotions (and whether NSU is eligible for those promotions). One
individual player inducing that since his/her mailer has been cut that
the casino is slashing it for everybody is simply not valid. My mailer
stayed the same ($400), and Shirley's increased (from $0 to $120). You
need a LOT of particulars to correctly induce the pattern. And even if
you correctly figure out the pattern for September, it will be different
in October.
It may soon take $1,000,000 a month at the Palms for the top mailer.
This puts these mailers out of reach for most, and many players will
decide that it is no longer a smart place for them to play. So be it.
Every winning player continually makes these kinds of assessments and
adjustments. If enough players cut back drastically because of this (as
I did when they stopped letting NSU players participate in promotions),
the casino may or may not make adjustments in order to bring those
players back in. It's a very dynamic game with both the casino and the
players constantly making adjustments. Both casinos and players are very
greedy and wish to make a profit. You don't have to like this, but
that's the way the game is played.
Bob Dancer
For the best in video poker information, visit www.bobdancer.com
or call 1-800-244-2224 M-F 9-5 Pacific Time.
Or as they say on the street, don't hate the player, hate the game.
--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "Bob Dancer" <bob.dancer@...> wrote:
Both casinos and players are very
greedy and wish to make a profit. You don't have to like this, but
that's the way the game is played.
Apparently The Palms is trying to limit the number of keys an individual can win towards the upcoming "Mercedes-Benz" drawing, as they have set a maximum of 700 entries per individual, per week
vpFREE Links: http://members.cox.net/vpfree/Links.htm
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I've always wondered why Bob Dancer makes statements such as
the ones below. What point could he be attempting to make by
belittling people as he does? It's just rude.
On 8/31/06, Bob Dancer <bob.dancer@compdance.com> wrote:
Jean wrote: Bounce-back has been cut back drastically on mailers. Brad
and I went from
$400 a month to $75 although we played more than usual recently!!!!! .
. . Must be a new Sherman's-march-to-the-sea policy at the Palms?I've always wondered what makes one statement by Jean worth five
exclamation points, while others are only worth three or four, or
possibly even a question mark. If one of her former students only used
three exclamation points on a sentence like that, do you think she
slashed his/her grade?
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
<<Apparently The Palms is trying to limit the number of keys an individual can
win towards the upcoming "Mercedes-Benz" drawing, as they have set a maximum
of 700 entries per individual, per week>>
Actually I think this is a good marketing move by the Palms. I heard loud mumbling during previous drawings that "the same people get called all the time." Even though Brad and I were some of these "same people" at times, I felt sorry for the "little guy."
When I talk to casino executives at seminars, etc. I suggest that they have at least some promotions where the lower level of players have a equal/decent chance. I always thought the Coast properties jacket promotion was a good one. You got a jacket for a royal flush no matter what the denomination of the machine.
Just because we play at a higher level these days, I never forget the years we were quarter players!!!!! (I add just as many exclamation points as I feel strongly about the subject! I talk in exclamation points and therefore I write the same way! That's just me, the person - not me, the retired English teacher!!)
________________________________________
Jean $�ott
"FRUGAL VIDEO POKER" - Pre-pub
orders for this new book now taken at
http://www.FrugalGambler.biz
Thank you Jean, for that sentiment towards the low-rollers!!!!
(yeah, four is enough)
--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "Jean Scott" <QueenofComps@...> wrote:
Just because we play at a higher level these days, I never forget the
years we were quarter players!!!!! (I add just as many exclamation
points as I feel strongly about the subject! I talk in exclamation
points and therefore I write the same way! That's just me, the person
not me, the retired English teacher!!)
Bob, my understanding is that 1) bounceback is based on daily average,
and 2) you've had a continuing relationship with the Palms as a
consultant. I use as reference previous articles in Strictly Slots for
which both you and your business partner Jeff Compton write for.
To discuss (1) briefly, the theos are the lowest I've seen in any
casino. Essentially, take the maximum payout and subtact .5% and there
you go (although the NSUD appears to be even less-only about .67%).
The short lived 10-6 DDB (and Paladin regrettably didn't get a chance
to play it) in high limit was 1.5% and that was assuming the game was
9-6, although DDB is one of the easiest games to play.
I'm actually interested in your response to (2) because it seems, for
better or worse, when the Palms takes restrictive action against VP
players, the logic is better thought out than normal, like a
consultant of AP level talent would think. Moreover, the policies tend
to protect very high end players (despite your protestations to the
contrary), while eliminating profitable situations for the remainder.
Without this being meant as an attack, it appears to many of us that
your game has long been not to be the biggest star in the VP horizon,
but the only one. It's something a lot of APs try, but I've seen this
more with blackjack players than with machine players. Then again, the
Vegas VP culture is, as you have noted previously in your column,
Darwinian. By the contrast, the AC VP culture is significantly more
cooperative, but then again, there are fewer pros and the plays are
generally more everyday type as opposed to something special or a
mistake.
You remind me a little bit of a superstar LA blackjack pro who tried
to parlay his exploits to Hollywood, both in the AP sense and in the
business sense. The Hollywood side died on Jerry Bruckheimer's desk,
the business side, which was employing him as a hedge fund trader
never really took off. Although we'll see how televised blackjack
does, being an AP and having media access generally do not go
together-larger and better connected names have tried and failed. I
mean, the AP by nature must be stealthy, you just don't walk into a
casino and declare, "I've got the best of it and I can prove it!" Not
good if you're trying to take the money out and leave them laughing.
Which is kind of the reason I'm here. Because guys like you cost me
money. There is nothing more hated in our world than a guy who can't
keep his mouth shut, and we both know that.
You see, your idol, Stanford Wong, cost me several hundred thou by his
insisting on educating the blackjack masses. Trouble was, the only
people who really Got It were the casino suits who were Green and
occaisonally Black Chip members on his site. Stanford always made more
money writing then actually playing, of which he had virtually no clue
regarding casino comportment. I mean, if you're going to rat out VP to
the other side, which is what Compton-Dancer essentially does, I'm
hoping you at least get paid well for it, although it takes no genius
to tell a casino to offer NSUD and .25% cb. Because it makes no sense
otherwise. Not a bad thought, but I wonder about the execution.
Frankly, I really think you didn't think it through when MGM bounced
you. I mean, you got more than your EV, you won well over half a
million when the smoke cleared, what did you expect them to do? I
mean, you weren't the only casualty, consider how many suits got
bounced for letting you play, and consider how many got bounced for
the brilliant idea of pulling MGM's advertising from Casino Player
because they wouldn't fire you, which of course only cost them money
as well. Protecting a slot machine is significantly simpler than
protecting a table game, although it amazes me how many casinos have
trouble doing either. But I'd like the information flow to remain that
way, thanks.
Getting back to the Palms, it seems to me the only people who have a
long term expectation there are the half dozen or so pros who play
NSUD in high limit. I know the play(s), and won't rat them out here,
that's not my business nor my style. I will say this much though: nice
work if you can get it.
--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "Bob Dancer" <bob.dancer@...> wrote:
It may soon take $1,000,000 a month at the Palms for the top mailer.
This puts these mailers out of reach for most, and many players will
decide that it is no longer a smart place for them to play. So be it.
Every winning player continually makes these kinds of assessments and
adjustments. If enough players cut back drastically because of this (as
I did when they stopped letting NSU players participate in promotions),
the casino may or may not make adjustments in order to bring those
players back in. It's a very dynamic game with both the casino and the
players constantly making adjustments. Both casinos and players are very
greedy and wish to make a profit. You don't have to like this, but
that's the way the game is played.
_______________________________________________________________________
<<Apparently The Palms is trying to limit the number of keys an
individual
can
win towards the upcoming "Mercedes-Benz" drawing, as they have set a
maximum
of 700 entries per individual, per week>>
Maybe it's because of the controversy on a recent car giveaway. I had
heard the screaming from 2000 miles away, that the key giveaway was
not as random as one would think it might have been. Paladin is
greatly amused when he hears this sort of thing, because in my
experience there are very few ticket drawings that aren't gaffed in
Vegas. I really tend to avoid them like the plague. The Palms is an
exception to that rule, IMHO. The guy who won the car I'm discussing
is just a total luckbox, he's a solid pro who is entitled to be lucky.
I don't know about currently, but there was this 9 month period not
too long ago where he smacked pretty much everything I was playing in
town. While I trust my Vegas sources usually, I felt like they were
wrong on this one, even though one semi-interested party felt the same
way as the others.
I think this is a bad idea overall, it hurts their profitability in
the long run. The idea behind a ticket promotion is to encourage play,
not discourage it. Again, it sounds like a jealous AP thought up this
one.
--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "Jean Scott" <QueenofComps@...> wrote:
_________________________________________________________________________
I've always wondered why Bob Dancer makes statements such as
the ones below. What point could he be attempting to make by
belittling people as he does? It's just rude.>
> Jean wrote: Bounce-back has been cut back drastically on mailers.
Brad
> and I went from
> $400 a month to $75 although we played more than usual
recently!!!!! .
> . . Must be a new Sherman's-march-to-the-sea policy at the Palms?
>
>
> I've always wondered what makes one statement by Jean worth five
> exclamation points, while others are only worth three or four, or
> possibly even a question mark. If one of her former students only used
> three exclamation points on a sentence like that, do you think she
> slashed his/her grade?
You obviously don't know about the time he thanked one of his students
for playing so badly on the high limit machines at MGM, because it let
guys like him take the money out, and this was a guy paying $200 or so
an hour for the privilege of communing with him. Even Mrs. Dancer
didn't speak to him for a couple of days, at least that how the story
went.
Bob and Jean are kind of like oil and water, they're both protecting
their own turf, nothing more. I wouldn't analyze it any further than
that.
--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "Curtis Rich" <LGTVegas@...> wrote:
On 8/31/06, Bob Dancer <bob.dancer@...> wrote:
________________________________________________________________________
<<Bob and Jean are kind of like oil and water, they're both protecting
their own turf, nothing more.>>
Hey, I don't think I have any turf - at least not any I know about - unless you count one exciting experience on a picnic blanket laid in the grass at a secluded park once. As for oil and water. I take showers in the latter and use the former for exotic pleasures nice ladies don't talk about in public and I don't think Brad is talking either!!!!!!!!!!
________________________________________
Jean $�ott
"FRUGAL VIDEO POKER" - Pre-pub
orders for this new book now taken at
http://www.FrugalGambler.biz
!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
<<Bob and Jean are kind of like oil and water, they're both
protecting
their own turf, nothing more.>>
Hey, I don't think I have any turf - at least not any I know about -
unless
you count one exciting experience on a picnic blanket laid in the
grass at a
secluded park once. As for oil and water. I take showers in the
latter
and use the former for exotic pleasures nice ladies don't talk
about in
--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "Jean Scott" <QueenofComps@...> wrote:
public and I don't think Brad is talking either!!!!!!!!!!
________________________________________
Jean $¢ott
"FRUGAL VIDEO POKER" - Pre-pub
orders for this new book now taken at
http://www.FrugalGambler.biz
I'm sure it's all about the money.
I've always wondered why Bob Dancer makes statements such as
the ones below. What point could he be attempting to make by
belittling people as he does? It's just rude.>
> Jean wrote: Bounce-back has been cut back drastically on mailers.
Brad
> and I went from
> $400 a month to $75 although we played more than usual
recently!!!!! .
--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "Curtis Rich" <LGTVegas@...> wrote:
On 8/31/06, Bob Dancer <bob.dancer@...> wrote:
> . . Must be a new Sherman's-march-to-the-sea policy at the Palms?
>
>
> I've always wondered what makes one statement by Jean worth five
> exclamation points, while others are only worth three or four, or
> possibly even a question mark. If one of her former students only used
> three exclamation points on a sentence like that, do you think she
> slashed his/her grade?
>[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
This would be a poorer place without our racy, hot grandmother!!---
<<Bob and Jean are kind of like oil and water, they're both
protecting
their own turf, nothing more.>>
Hey, I don't think I have any turf - at least not any I know
about - unless
you count one exciting experience on a picnic blanket laid in the
grass at a
secluded park once. As for oil and water. I take showers in
the latter
and use the former for exotic pleasures nice ladies don't talk
about in
In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "Jean Scott" <QueenofComps@...> wrote:
public and I don't think Brad is talking either!!!!!!!!!!
________________________________________
Jean $¢ott
"FRUGAL VIDEO POKER" - Pre-pub
orders for this new book now taken at
http://www.FrugalGambler.biz
Paladin wrote: Bob, you've had a continuing relationship with the Palms
as a consultant.
Only to a very minor degree. I did meet with the GM once last
fall at my instigation when they originally took out the NSU and told
him that now the Palms high limit room was slightly tighter than the
Rio's. That got his attention, and he put the games back --- along with
9/6 Jacks for the first time --- although NSU games frequently aren't
included in promotions.
Other than that, I've had informal, irregular, semi-monthly
3-minute chats with Don Hallmark, the slot director when we run into
each other on the floor. Although he's asked my opinion on a few things,
(I told him, for example, that the August slot tournaments would not be
popular with the stronger players). This hardly falls under the category
of a consulting relationship. I've had similar conversations with
executives of many casinos --- as have many other players. Keeping a
friendly relationship with people who have the power to demand you don't
play there any more is smart business. Plus, most of the decisions about
promotions at the Palms are made by the GM/owner, and the slot
department has rather little input. They do send me the rules to the
promotions via email so I can write them up for the Friday column in the
Neon.
Whoever it was who noted that there was a limit of 700 tickets
for the drawings, thank you. That wasn't in the rules I saw. I
appreciate the information.
Bob Dancer
For the best in video poker information, visit www.bobdancer.com
or call 1-800-244-2224 M-F 9-5 Pacific Time.
Bob, this is what I wrote originally: Bob, [b]my understanding is
that....you've had a continuing relationship with the Palms as a
consultant [/b]. I use as reference previous articles in Strictly
Slots for which both you and your business partner Jeff Compton write
for. Although I'm sure you meant no harm, please keep my comments in
context. I certainly wouldn't make such an assertion without at least
seeing an admission or already knowing the answer.
You know, I've had my share of half-million and million ci trips over
the years, and I've rarely had to deal with a really big suit. When I
was playing blackjack, I was always being sized up. I kind of felt it
to be a bad sign when you started interfacing with those higher up the
food chain, but machines are different. OTOH, if you can work the deal
to your advantage and eliminate competition at the same time by
maintaining relationships with said people, by all mean, more power to
you. I just play the game differently than you.
I do find it fascinating that the Maloofs (who really should know
better) sweat every little detail about the promotions and games,
usually going the wrong way in the process, while at the same time
giving the high limit players some very strong promotions to play.
It's almost like a guy like you wrote the promo rules and not the
Maloofs. They certainly can't be dreaming up this stuff on their own.
To the rest of you out there, you want the top mail from the Palms, be
prepared to give them $75K/day on the NSUD, or $50K/day playing Jacks.
Both translate to -$225 in EV.
--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "Bob Dancer" <bob.dancer@...> wrote:
Paladin wrote: Bob, you've had a continuing relationship with the Palms
as a consultant.Only to a very minor degree. I did meet with the GM once last
fall at my instigation when they originally took out the NSU and told
him that now the Palms high limit room was slightly tighter than the
Rio's. That got his attention, and he put the games back --- along with
9/6 Jacks for the first time --- although NSU games frequently aren't
included in promotions.Other than that, I've had informal, irregular, semi-monthly
3-minute chats with Don Hallmark, the slot director when we run into
each other on the floor. Although he's asked my opinion on a few things,
(I told him, for example, that the August slot tournaments would not be
popular with the stronger players). This hardly falls under the category
of a consulting relationship. I've had similar conversations with
executives of many casinos --- as have many other players. Keeping a
friendly relationship with people who have the power to demand you don't
play there any more is smart business. Plus, most of the decisions about
promotions at the Palms are made by the GM/owner, and the slot
department has rather little input. They do send me the rules to the
promotions via email so I can write them up for the Friday column in the
Neon.
<<Bob and Jean are kind of like oil and water, they're both protecting
their own turf, nothing more.>>Hey, I don't think I have any turf - at least not any I know about -
unless
you count one exciting experience on a picnic blanket laid in the
grass at a
secluded park once. As for oil and water. I take showers in the
latter
and use the former for exotic pleasures nice ladies don't talk about in
public and I don't think Brad is talking either!!!!!!!!!!
It's the 21st Century, Jean, ladies can talk about that sort of thing
in public now. Especially at Caesars or MGM around 3a. As for your
"turf" issue, well, that's between you and Brad....
--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "Jean Scott" <QueenofComps@...> wrote:
<<It's the 21st Century, Jean, ladies can talk about that sort of thing
in public now.>>
I am of the old school that thinks talking about an excess of anything shows a lack of class. Leaving a little to the imagination is the sexiest ploy of all!
________________________________________
Jean $�ott
"FRUGAL VIDEO POKER" - Pre-pub
orders for this new book now taken at
http://www.FrugalGambler.biz
Re: "I told him, for example, that the August slot tournaments would not be
popular with the stronger players."
What are 'stronger' players? Players, who play more than most other
players? Players, whose average bet is higher than most other players?
Players, who play better than most other players? Somthing else?
On 9/1/06, Bob Dancer <bob.dancer@compdance.com> wrote:
Paladin wrote: Bob, you've had a continuing relationship with the Palms
as a consultant.Only to a very minor degree. I did meet with the GM once last
fall at my instigation when they originally took out the NSU and told
him that now the Palms high limit room was slightly tighter than the
Rio's. That got his attention, and he put the games back --- along with
9/6 Jacks for the first time --- although NSU games frequently aren't
included in promotions.Other than that, I've had informal, irregular, semi-monthly
3-minute chats with Don Hallmark, the slot director when we run into
each other on the floor. Although he's asked my opinion on a few things,
(I told him, for example, that the August slot tournaments would not be
popular with the stronger players). This hardly falls under the category
of a consulting relationship. I've had similar conversations with
executives of many casinos --- as have many other players. Keeping a
friendly relationship with people who have the power to demand you don't
play there any more is smart business. Plus, most of the decisions about
promotions at the Palms are made by the GM/owner, and the slot
department has rather little input. They do send me the rules to the
promotions via email so I can write them up for the Friday column in the
Neon.Whoever it was who noted that there was a limit of 700 tickets
for the drawings, thank you. That wasn't in the rules I saw. I
appreciate the information.Bob Dancer
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]