vpFREE2 Forums

Palms Hand-pays below $1200

#1

Within this week, the Palms has re-verted to their opening policy of
handpaying the regular $1000 25c Royal Flush. What an irritation and moreover a
real management blunder.

Here you are, in your rhythm, and a Royal Flush comes up. Usually, you're
playing the next hand(s) within a second or two. But no, now the following:
1. The machine locks
2. Wait time for the payout which gives you a chance to re-assess where
you are
     and if this might be a good stopping place.
3. You are "cashed out" for the $1000 which now can be rat-holed backed in
your
      wallet.
4. The obvious pressure for a "tip" and the momentum of where you were is
gone.

In a way, this is a safety stop for the player. The casino is slowing down
your "handle" and cashing you out. Just imagine the manpower and
administrivia connected with a handpay. So, on one hand, the change machines
eliminated the need for too many people cashiers and now these hand pays put more
work in the hands of the floor personnel and the cage cashier to document the
handpay.

The rumored explanation is to give the floor employees a bit more
opportunity to increase their tokes. The three (3) incidents that I know of had the
player closing up shop and walking shortly after the payout. I normally tip
something on the W-2G
handpay; I will not do so on this "make work" handpay situation.

Anteroz

PS The Tuscany does this routinely and on the higher jackpots ($2 and $4K)
come with a entourage of change person, security, and slot and casino
managers.</HTML>

#2

Well, this is something that happens every like 50 hours if your grinding away. But what if it happens every 2 hours?

At Mohegan Sun, a handpay starts at $600 (PE Quads for this example).
I can see monitor 12 PE's on a bank of all occupied when I'm there.
Quads occur every 2400 hands and SF every 38K hands. RF ever 350K.

So, if your putting through $3K at a liesurely 600 hands/hour. You get hung up with a handpay every 4 hours. With a SF and some luck maybe every 2 hours and 5 minuts and with RF every 2 hours and 5 minutes and like 10 seconds.

So, IMO,when a handpay is at $600, it's not a big deal EXCEPT when it takes more than 10 minutes. That's the key. Get me my $600 handpay in a safe and efficient manner and you get your $5 toke and I get back to either at a leisurely 600 HPH or Grinding.

Just tell management why it's a great idea to keep my favorite machines!:slight_smile:

···

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, anterozlv@... wrote:

Within this week, the Palms has re-verted to their opening policy of
handpaying the regular $1000 25c Royal Flush. What an irritation and moreover a
real management blunder.

Here you are, in your rhythm, and a Royal Flush comes up. Usually, you're
playing the next hand(s) within a second or two. But no, now the following:
1. The machine locks
2. Wait time for the payout which gives you a chance to re-assess where
you are
     and if this might be a good stopping place.
3. You are "cashed out" for the $1000 which now can be rat-holed backed in
your
      wallet.
4. The obvious pressure for a "tip" and the momentum of where you were is
gone.

In a way, this is a safety stop for the player. The casino is slowing down
your "handle" and cashing you out. Just imagine the manpower and
administrivia connected with a handpay. So, on one hand, the change machines
eliminated the need for too many people cashiers and now these hand pays put more
work in the hands of the floor personnel and the cage cashier to document the
handpay.

The rumored explanation is to give the floor employees a bit more
opportunity to increase their tokes. The three (3) incidents that I know of had the
player closing up shop and walking shortly after the payout. I normally tip
something on the W-2G
handpay; I will not do so on this "make work" handpay situation.

Anteroz

PS The Tuscany does this routinely and on the higher jackpots ($2 and $4K)
come with a entourage of change person, security, and slot and casino
managers.</HTML>

#3

Perhaps it is an attempt to catch more people playing on other people's cards. Their slot club literature has strong wording against this practice and they do enforce it against video poker players.

···

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, anterozlv@... wrote:

Within this week, the Palms has re-verted to their opening policy of
handpaying the regular $1000 25c Royal Flush. What an irritation and moreover a
real management blunder.

#4

Most of us are aware that casino marketing departments as well as many hosts monitor vpFREE posts. Perhaps one of these "spies" can enlighten us on this issue as to their reasoning.

My own explanation takes a completely different route from the one you mention.

I recently cashed out from a machine and took the ticket to the cage. It was for about $2000. There had been no taxable jackpots, just some accumulated winnings plus my own initial investment being returned to me.

Instead of simply scanning and cashing the ticket the cage staffer asked for identification! I was astounded and demanded immediate payment, stating that there is no requirement printed on the payment ticket that any ID be presented. Eventually, after the argument continued a supervisor arrived, I "won" and was paid.

Anyway, in returning to the "under $1200 hand pay" issue you discuss, I have a theory as to why that cage staffer wanted to know who I am.

Marketing purposes? Perhaps.

But what if the casino has been having a problem lately with losses due to cashing "bogus" computer-generated tickets? I could see where they now want to hand-pay $1000 rather than blindly cash a ticket for that amount when they may have been burned by perhaps thousands of those recently.

After all, show me anything run by computer and you'll find hackers out there working around the clock trying to figure out how to manipulate that system.

Just a thought.

Enjoy your holiday weekend,

Mikey

···

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "vegasvpplayer" <vegasvpplayer@...> wrote:

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, anterozlv@ wrote:
>
> Within this week, the Palms has re-verted to their opening policy of
> handpaying the regular $1000 25c Royal Flush. What an irritation and moreover a
> real management blunder.
>

Perhaps it is an attempt to catch more people playing on other people's cards. Their slot club literature has strong wording against this practice and they do enforce it against video poker players.

From my standpoint, it was not a question of revealing my identity. My driver's license and SS card is readily available for hand pays where that documentation is necessary. But in any other instance you are going to have to give me an appropriate reason for seeing my ID.

#5

They wanted to see your ID because they are required to track your
accumulated cash transactions each day in order to file required reports to
the Federal government. You are not required to show ID, but they are
required to ask.

If you don't show it and they know who you are, they may file a suspicious
person report because you're probably a terrorist or drug dealer.

I'd show it.

Cogno

···

-----Original Message-----
From: vpFREE@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vpF…@…com] On Behalf
Of mikeymic
Sent: Friday, May 28, 2010 10:36 AM
To: vpFREE@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [vpFREE] Re: Palms Hand-pays below $1200

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "vegasvpplayer" <vegasvpplayer@...>
wrote:
>
> --- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, anterozlv@ wrote:
> >
> > Within this week, the Palms has re-verted to their opening policy
of
> > handpaying the regular $1000 25c Royal Flush. What an irritation
and moreover a
> > real management blunder.
> >
>
>
>
> Perhaps it is an attempt to catch more people playing on other
people's cards. Their slot club literature has strong wording against
this practice and they do enforce it against video poker players.
>

Most of us are aware that casino marketing departments as well as many
hosts monitor vpFREE posts. Perhaps one of these "spies" can enlighten
us on this issue as to their reasoning.

My own explanation takes a completely different route from the one you
mention.

I recently cashed out from a machine and took the ticket to the cage.
It was for about $2000. There had been no taxable jackpots, just some
accumulated winnings plus my own initial investment being returned to
me.

Instead of simply scanning and cashing the ticket the cage staffer
asked for identification! I was astounded and demanded immediate
payment, stating that there is no requirement printed on the payment
ticket that any ID be presented. Eventually, after the argument
continued a supervisor arrived, I "won" and was paid.

From my standpoint, it was not a question of revealing my identity. My
driver's license and SS card is readily available for hand pays where
that documentation is necessary. But in any other instance you are
going to have to give me an appropriate reason for seeing my ID.

Anyway, in returning to the "under $1200 hand pay" issue you discuss, I
have a theory as to why that cage staffer wanted to know who I am.

Marketing purposes? Perhaps.

But what if the casino has been having a problem lately with losses due
to cashing "bogus" computer-generated tickets? I could see where they
now want to hand-pay $1000 rather than blindly cash a ticket for that
amount when they may have been burned by perhaps thousands of those
recently.

After all, show me anything run by computer and you'll find hackers out
there working around the clock trying to figure out how to manipulate
that system.

Just a thought.

Enjoy your holiday weekend,

Mikey

------------------------------------

vpFREE Links: http://members.cox.net/vpfree/Links.htm

Yahoo! Groups Links

#6

You probably already know that casinos (and financial institutions etc.) are required to file a Currency Transaction Report for any cash transaction in excess of $10,000, or any combination of transactions that in aggregate exceed $10,000 in a single day.

Therefore they by and large also keep track of transactions even below $10,000, if they think there is a reasonable chance that you might accumulate several such transactions that, together, would exceed the $10K limit.

However in my experience $2000 seems like an abnormally low threshold for them to ask for ID -- $3K seems more common in my experience, and also a slot/players club card usually suffices.

Further reading material for anyone really interested :slight_smile: :

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Currency_transaction_report

http://www.fincen.gov/forms/files/fin103_ctrc.pdf

http://www.fincen.gov/forms/files/fin104_ctr.pdf

···

On Fri, 28 May 2010, mikeymic wrote:

I recently cashed out from a machine and took the ticket to the cage. It was for about $2000. There had been no taxable jackpots, just some accumulated winnings plus my own initial investment being returned to me.

Instead of simply scanning and cashing the ticket the cage staffer asked for identification! I was astounded and demanded immediate payment, stating that there is no requirement printed on the payment ticket that any ID be presented. Eventually, after the argument continued a supervisor arrived, I "won" and was paid.

#7
#8

I encountered this "sub $1200" hand pay situation at the MGM Grand of all places. It was a cash out, no royal was hit.

I'm so conditioned to being excitied when the light on top goes off I had no idea what I possibly could have hit.

Turns out I didn't.

I asked the attendant (who took 15 minutes to arrive, by the way) why I was getting a hand pay instead of a ticket. I didn't really get much of a response.

If the casino thinks this is a way to fund underpaid help it will have to come from your "donations", not mine. My policy is that no tip is due when no taxable jackpot has been paid. And if I am well down for the session and do hit a small jackpot, then that situation unfortunately is going to result in bad news for the attendant as well.

···

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "nudge51" <nudge51@...> wrote:

Mikey
I would assume that this has nothing to do with marketing but instead is
related to the casino's policy regarding CTR ( currency transaction
reporting ) to Uncle Sam. Seems like every casino is different as to how
they handle it and there have been some changes in the laws in recent years.
The most important part of this incident is that you took the money. As far
as hand pays for sub W2G events, this is just the casino's friendly way of
having you subsidize their payroll to underpaid help.
                                                                        Nudge

#9

A smart operator would set up many hand pays. I know they annoy advantage
players, but look at the business need.

Before TITO machines would lock up frequently, a nickel VP machine could
lock up at $40. So the customers got longer playing time and could see lots
of people on a busy night hitting jackpots.

Fast-forward to today where few machines lock up below $1200. Not only does
the average customer lose his money much quicker (and therefore has better
places than casinos to spend their entertainment money) but he also
remembers when "everyone was hitting lots of jackpots but the machines don't
pay off anymore".

In addition, the bookkeepers who run these places think they are saving
money by eliminating floor people but are actually costing themselves much
more by providing bad service and losing customers. It's like Silverton
thinking they are saving money by closing the buffet not only for breakfast
but for lunch, as well.

At least the Palms is smart enough to know that it is in their best interest
to have more machines lock up more often.

And it's in our interests, as well. If they start getting more customers and
making money they still won't understand that it is in their interests to
offer good games but they might, anyway.

Bill

···

-----Original Message-----
From: vpFREE@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vpF…@…com] On Behalf Of
anterozlv@aol.com
Sent: Friday, May 28, 2010 5:36 AM
To: vpFREE@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [vpFREE] Re: Palms Hand-pays below $1200

Within this week, the Palms has re-verted to their opening policy of
handpaying the regular $1000 25c Royal Flush. What an irritation and
moreover a
real management blunder.

#10

<<Within this week, the Palms has re-verted to their opening policy of
handpaying the regular $1000 25c Royal Flush. What an irritation and moreover a
real management blunder.>>

This is really a time-killer on the quarter 100-play.

···

________________
Jean $�ott, Frugal Gambler
http://queenofcomps.com/
You can read my blog at
http://jscott.lvablog.com/

#11

Point well taken. I forgot about frequency of handpays before TITO.

···

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "Bill Coleman" <vphobby2@...> wrote:

A smart operator would set up many hand pays. I know they annoy advantage
players, but look at the business need.

Before TITO machines would lock up frequently, a nickel VP machine could
lock up at $40. So the customers got longer playing time and could see lots
of people on a busy night hitting jackpots.

Fast-forward to today where few machines lock up below $1200. Not only does
the average customer lose his money much quicker (and therefore has better
places than casinos to spend their entertainment money) but he also
remembers when "everyone was hitting lots of jackpots but the machines don't
pay off anymore".

In addition, the bookkeepers who run these places think they are saving
money by eliminating floor people but are actually costing themselves much
more by providing bad service and losing customers. It's like Silverton
thinking they are saving money by closing the buffet not only for breakfast
but for lunch, as well.

At least the Palms is smart enough to know that it is in their best interest
to have more machines lock up more often.

And it's in our interests, as well. If they start getting more customers and
making money they still won't understand that it is in their interests to
offer good games but they might, anyway.

Bill

-----Original Message-----
From: vpFREE@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vpF…@…com] On Behalf Of
anterozlv@…
Sent: Friday, May 28, 2010 5:36 AM
To: vpFREE@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [vpFREE] Re: Palms Hand-pays below $1200

Within this week, the Palms has re-verted to their opening policy of
handpaying the regular $1000 25c Royal Flush. What an irritation and
moreover a
real management blunder.

#12

I remember the Sahara used to hand pay a $400 winner on a Bonus Poker machine, but this was before that had many..if any TITO machines. Maybe it was to give the workers a chance to make a few extra bucks. I know I used to throw them a fiver when they had to hand pay me.

I must be missing your point about the Silverton. If a buffet is losing money by staying open for breakfast and lunch because they don't get enough customers and they have a lot of spoilage, then WHY should they stay open?

- It's like Silverton

···

> thinking they are saving money by closing the buffet not only for breakfast
> but for lunch, as well.
>
> At least the Palms is smart enough to know that it is in their best interest
> to have more machines lock up more often.
>
> And it's in our interests, as well. If they start getting more customers and
> making money they still won't understand that it is in their interests to
> offer good games but they might, anyway.
>
> Bill
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: vpFREE@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vpF…@…com] On Behalf Of
> anterozlv@
> Sent: Friday, May 28, 2010 5:36 AM
> To: vpFREE@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: [vpFREE] Re: Palms Hand-pays below $1200
>
> Within this week, the Palms has re-verted to their opening policy of
> handpaying the regular $1000 25c Royal Flush. What an irritation and
> moreover a
> real management blunder.
>

#13

Because they seem to have 25 - 50 customers in the casino on weekday
mornings. That's less than 2% occupancy. If they make more from additional
slot players who come in for the buffet than they lose on the buffet that is
good business strategy. It also keeps the casino busier so new or infrequent
customers checking the place out will stay and play.

But they don't look at it that way. F&B is a profit center so if it's not
showing a profit they close it regardless of the effect on the whole
property.

Bill

···

-----Original Message-----
From: vpFREE@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vpF…@…com] On Behalf Of
stuckinvegas
Sent: Friday, May 28, 2010 10:30 PM
To: vpFREE@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [vpFREE] Re: Palms Hand-pays below $1200

I remember the Sahara used to hand pay a $400 winner on a Bonus Poker
machine, but this was before that had many..if any TITO machines. Maybe it
was to give the workers a chance to make a few extra bucks. I know I used
to throw them a fiver when they had to hand pay me.

I must be missing your point about the Silverton. If a buffet is losing
money by staying open for breakfast and lunch because they don't get enough
customers and they have a lot of spoilage, then WHY should they stay open?