vpFREE2 Forums

over a nickel

#1

The incident happened at Motor City Casino in Detroit. The lady found a nickel token and picked it out of the coin tray. Security guard saw her, booted her out and made her wait outside in the 90 degree heat for a couple of hours until the rest of her bus group finished.

Wayne County is famous for generous lawsuits and awarded $875,000 . The lawsuit wasn't over the nickel, it was over how she was treated. The security guard said it was against the law to pick up that nickel, that's why he kicked her out. I have never actually seen this rule anywhere. That's why I posed the question to the group.

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#2

John.G.Zaroff wrote:

The incident happened at Motor City Casino in Detroit. The lady found a nickel token and picked it out of the coin tray. Security guard saw her, booted her out and made her wait outside in the 90 degree heat for a couple of hours until the rest of her bus group finished.

Wayne County is famous for generous lawsuits and awarded $875,000 . The lawsuit wasn't over the nickel, it was over how she was treated. The security guard said it was against the law to pick up that nickel, that's why he kicked her out. I have never actually seen this rule anywhere. That's why I posed the question to the group.

snip

Found the case synopsis in some legal reviews, so that's reliable enough for me. The award was not by the judge, but by a jury; no surprise there, since idiot juries do all sorts of outlandish things. Sounds to me like the main reason things went so bad for her in the casino in the first place is that she developed an attitude and was tossed out for _that_ reason. No actual injury; just some bruised feelings and a bit of humiliation (hell, anyone whose lived on this planet very long has probably suffered as much), ... and the idiot jury decides to award her $875,000.00 in punitive damages. So _who_ is punished by that award? Well, the casino security workers have probably been fired, but that doesn't amount to $875,000.00, and they're not paying any part of the judgment either. So who is actually paying? The same folks who always pay for every one of these types of lawsuits brought against big business, whether it's McDonald's over hot coffee, or Ford over it's Pinto gas tank design, or perhaps Walmart with this new sexual discrimination lawsuit -- in all cases the impact is mostly, and probably exclusively, upon a mixture of shareholders, remaining employees (and I don't just mean management), and consumers (future customers forced to pay higher prices, or in the case of the casino, less generous comps and/or tigher paybacks, etc.). In other words, folks who pay the "punitive damages" are always those who never had a thing to do with the incident or any policy.

Oh well, when our society sees more wisdom in paying Colby Bryant $135,000,000.00 dollars over seven years for tossing a ball in a hoop, while the teachers of our children -- those we will rely upon for innovation, support, and leadership in the future -- are generally underpaid, then nothing like this surprises me. And I don't ever want to hear a word about all of this being the fault of lawyers; no lawyer held a gun to the head of any juror. The people themselves are to blame. Amazing!

Bill Velek

#3

Rastis for one, is very thankful we live in a country where reprehensive
behavior by corporate giants and other bullies can be presented to a jury of
our peers for appropriate review and assessment of penalties. As to
basketball players versus teachers, surly you jest. Have you not heard of
supply and demand (the cornerstone of capitalism)? There are hundreds of
thousands of fine people that can teach in our country. There are only a
handful that can excel playing above the rim! Perhaps we should take the
salaries of the NBA, NFL, NHL, & MLB players and redistribute it among the
teachers. Of course we would have to re-name our country, The United States
of Communism. Me thinks a re-read of the CONSTITUTION is in order.

···

----- Original Message -----
From: "Bill Velek" <billvelek@alltel.net>
To: <vpFREE@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Wednesday, July 21, 2004 12:33 AM
Subject: Re: [vpFREE] over a nickel

Oh well, when our society sees more wisdom in paying Colby Bryant
$135,000,000.00 dollars over seven years for tossing a ball in a hoop,
while the teachers of our children -- those we will rely upon for
innovation, support, and leadership in the future -- are generally
underpaid, then nothing like this surprises me. And I don't ever want
to hear a word about all of this being the fault of lawyers; no lawyer
held a gun to the head of any juror. The people themselves are to
blame. Amazing!

Bill Velek

#4

Speaking personally, nobody has ever held a gun to my head. But
I have been personally threatened by a dangerous weapon in the
form of a lawsuit. I suspect that far more injustice is perpetrated
in our society by those who wield lawyers than by those who wield
guns. Of course, you can't blame an inanimate gun for the actions
of whoever wields it, but lawyers are generally not inanimate and
must accept some of the blame for allowing themselves to be used
as tools by those who manipulate the legal system. To say "the
jury did it, the people themselves are to blame" is to ignore the
intense pleadings of the lawyers that the injustices suffered by
their clients DEMAND astronomical compensation. Good thing
those stupid jurors are there to absorb all the blame, eh? Otherwise,
lawyers would have to accept responsibility for their role in the
whole ordeal. Show me a lawyer who will decline to accept their
cut of the huge contingency fee from one of these massive lawsuits.

I'm guessing you don't want to hear that either, coming from the
bench, but IMO it is ludicrous to claim that the widespread
dislike/distrust of lawyers is entirely unjustified. One of my favorite
cartoons shows two people fighting over possession of a cow, one
pulling on the horns and another pulling on the tail, and a lawyer is
milking the cow. Quite apropos IMO.

No offense intended toward Bill or anyone else here who happens
to be part of our legal system. Celebrities are easy targets due to
their huge paychecks, but somehow I suspect that if you totalled
the net wealth of all NBA stars it would pale in comparison to the
net wealth of the lawyers in our society. That too is a reflection
on the "wisdom" of our society.

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On Tuesday 20 July 2004 11:33 pm, Bill Velek wrote:

Oh well, when our society sees more wisdom in paying Colby Bryant
$135,000,000.00 dollars over seven years for tossing a ball in a hoop,
while the teachers of our children -- those we will rely upon for
innovation, support, and leadership in the future -- are generally
underpaid, then nothing like this surprises me. And I don't ever want
to hear a word about all of this being the fault of lawyers; no lawyer
held a gun to the head of any juror. The people themselves are to
blame. Amazing!

#5

Steve Jacobs wrote:

> Oh well, when our society sees more wisdom in paying Colby Bryant
> $135,000,000.00 dollars over seven years for tossing a ball in a hoop,
> while the teachers of our children -- those we will rely upon for
> innovation, support, and leadership in the future -- are generally
> underpaid, then nothing like this surprises me. And I don't ever want
> to hear a word about all of this being the fault of lawyers; no lawyer
> held a gun to the head of any juror. The people themselves are to
> blame. Amazing!

Speaking personally, nobody has ever held a gun to my head. But
I have been personally threatened by a dangerous weapon in the
form of a lawsuit. I suspect that far more injustice is perpetrated
in our society by those who wield lawyers than by those who wield
guns.

Perhaps. I'd have to agree that that 74 year old lady, with her lawyer, just did it.

Of course, you can't blame an inanimate gun for the actions
of whoever wields it, ...

I couldn't agree more; I'm an avid pro-gun, 2nd amendment advocate.

... but lawyers are generally not inanimate and
must accept some of the blame for allowing themselves to be used
as tools by those who manipulate the legal system. To say "the
jury did it, the people themselves are to blame" is to ignore the
intense pleadings of the lawyers that the injustices suffered by
their clients DEMAND astronomical compensation.

But the lawyer(s) for the other side is/are normally just as zealous pleading for justice for his/her client. The two competing sides ought to ... to use a VP term ... "in the long term", balance out, and the actual evidence and law ought to determine the outcome. However, we have in this country, in my opinion, too many irrational, emotional people, who don't understand economics at all, and are anxious to award a windfall to plaintiffs whether they actual deserve them or not, because they just think that the big companies can afford it, and it would be nice for the poor old lady to become rich. They are usually ignorant of the fact that, except for punitive damages, most damages are usually paid by an insurance company, which means that the insurance premiums for the regular guy on the street go up slightly every time that crap happens, and the retirement accounts which have invested in stock shares in that insurance company receive a little less retirement income.. Hell, I've seen reports of bus accidents where pedestrians and bystanders have clambered onto the bus after an accident that they weren't even involved in, just to seize the opportunity to share in what they hope will be windfall awards.

But I have a solution, although Rasti$ will accuse me of being a communist: all _PUNITIVE_ damages should go into a fund to help educate our children. That way the defendants are _still_ being punished, the plaintiff still gets just compensation in the form of compensatory damages without an unjustifiable windfall, and then _society_ -- which is paying the tab indirectly for such damages anyway -- benefits, and we don't need to worry about anyone trying to turn the U.S. into a communist nation by taking money from overpaid celebrities for the benefit of the masses. And for those of you who think teachers are overpaid, an alternative would be to take those huge _punitive_ damages and put them into Social Security, which probably needs every cent it can get. The point I'm making is that the whole purpose of punitive damages is to punish the plaintiff for a wrongdoing, and the money needn't go to the plaintiff to accomplish that purpose. There's a lot of middle ground here, too; for instance, perhaps our states could consider giving half of punitives to the plaintiff, or 25%, or 10%, etc. But when someone gets lung cancer and is awarded a couple of hundred million in damages (and obviously that isn't shared by everyone who is hurt by tobacco, nor is there enough money in the world to give a like award to each of them) ... then just who in the hell do we think they are? Colby Bryant? :wink:

snipped a bunch of horrible, mean things said about lawyers that are causing me to pout :slight_smile:

Okay, Steve, but what is the long-term variance on those damages if we use min risk of ruin strategy? :slight_smile:

Cheers.

Bill Velek

···

On Tuesday 20 July 2004 11:33 pm, Bill Velek wrote:

#6

Rasti$ P. Rulz wrote:

Rastis for one, is very thankful we live in a country where reprehensive
behavior by corporate giants and other bullies can be presented to a jury of
our peers for appropriate review and assessment of penalties. As to
basketball players versus teachers, surly you jest. Have you not heard of
supply and demand (the cornerstone of capitalism)? There are hundreds of
thousands of fine people that can teach in our country. There are only a
handful that can excel playing above the rim! Perhaps we should take the
salaries of the NBA, NFL, NHL, & MLB players and redistribute it among the
teachers. Of course we would have to re-name our country, The United States
of Communism. Me thinks a re-read of the CONSTITUTION is in order.

I don't need to re-read the Constitution, because I never proposed that the government step in and redistribute anyone's property. Mine was a comment about the priorities that are currently assigned by society. It's just a matter of opinion, and mine is that we could surely find, for example, someone to do Jay Leno's job just as well for one-tenth the money; and you know that Colby Bryant would work for one-tenth the money if there was no one out there willing to pay more. I feel sorry for all the folks on the bottom rung of those ladders who are barely making a living, but that's the choice they make -- and no small influence is the chance of hitting the super huge jackpot. Whatever.

Cheers.

Bill

#7

Athletes are paid huge sums of money because they generate huge sums
of revenues. If they weren't paid those salaries the money would go
directly to the owners. No one pays to watch the owners.

Don't blame athletes for teachers not making any money.

I do think it makes sense to have punitive damages go to the common
good, though. Too bad this is a video poker forum and no one will
listen to us.

Rastis for one, is very thankful we live in a country where

reprehensive

behavior by corporate giants and other bullies can be presented to

a jury of

our peers for appropriate review and assessment of penalties. As

to

basketball players versus teachers, surly you jest. Have you not

heard of

supply and demand (the cornerstone of capitalism)? There are

hundreds of

thousands of fine people that can teach in our country. There are

only a

handful that can excel playing above the rim! Perhaps we should

take the

salaries of the NBA, NFL, NHL, & MLB players and redistribute it

among the

teachers. Of course we would have to re-name our country, The

United States

of Communism. Me thinks a re-read of the CONSTITUTION is in order.

From: "Bill Velek" <billvelek@a...>
To: <vpFREE@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Wednesday, July 21, 2004 12:33 AM
Subject: Re: [vpFREE] over a nickel

> Oh well, when our society sees more wisdom in paying Colby Bryant
> $135,000,000.00 dollars over seven years for tossing a ball in a

hoop,

> while the teachers of our children -- those we will rely upon for
> innovation, support, and leadership in the future -- are

generally

> underpaid, then nothing like this surprises me. And I don't

ever want

> to hear a word about all of this being the fault of lawyers; no

lawyer

> held a gun to the head of any juror. The people themselves are

to

···

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "Rasti$ P. Rulz" <vpvegas@c...> wrote:

----- Original Message -----
> blame. Amazing!
>
> Bill Velek

#8

hansjurgent wrote:

Athletes are paid huge sums of money because they generate huge sums
of revenues. If they weren't paid those salaries the money would go
directly to the owners. ...

snip

Or maybe instead we wouldn't need to pay an arm and a leg to go to a game.

Bill

#9

Rastis for one, is very thankful we live in a country where

reprehensive

behavior by corporate giants and other bullies can be presented to

a jury of

our peers for appropriate review and assessment of penalties.

This is WAY off topic, but....

Just who's peers should make up the jury. Certainly if the jury was
made up of corporate CEO's and CFO's, the result would have been
somewhat different.

It drives me nuts when people complain about big business taking
advantage of the "little guy" to make money, and applaud when
a "little guy" wins a large settlement. Because in my mind,
that "little guy" just did the exact same thing, received a windfall
that will ultimately be paid for by the rest of us little guys.

I consider suing corporate giants for huge settlements to be
reprehensive behaviour as well.

···

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "Rasti$ P. Rulz" <vpvegas@c...> wrote:

#10

Or perhaps you could just stay home and donate the amount you would have
paid for the ticket to a local teacher. The longest journey begins with the
first step. As we say in Texas, money talks...

···

----- Original Message -----
From: "Bill Velek" <billvelek@alltel.net>
To: <vpFREE@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Wednesday, July 21, 2004 1:28 PM
Subject: Re: [vpFREE] XVP Re: over a nickel

hansjurgent wrote:

> Athletes are paid huge sums of money because they generate huge sums
> of revenues. If they weren't paid those salaries the money would go
> directly to the owners. ...

snip

Or maybe instead we wouldn't need to pay an arm and a leg to go to a game.

Bill

#11

Excellent point. I like the idea of punishing the wrongdoing
without punishing society in the process.

···

On Wednesday 21 July 2004 10:53 am, Bill Velek wrote:

The point I'm making is that the whole purpose of punitive
damages is to punish the plaintiff for a wrongdoing, and the money
needn't go to the plaintiff to accomplish that purpose.