vpFREE2 Forums

Opinions??

#1

Hi all,

I'm looking for a few different opinions. First off we are avid VP
players that reside in Canada. We usually like to stay and play at the
Red Rock casino in Vegas. Our game of choice is .50 10/7 Double Bonus
and our usual daily run-thru is approx. 30 thousand a day. This
normally gets our room comped and usually one big comped meal per 4 day
stay. Playing 10/7 DB has given us some fairly large swings in bankroll
and what I have been wondering is that maybe playing an 8/5 progressive
with it's lower variance and dollar for dollar point status wouldn't be
a better overall game for us. Any thoughts on this subject???

Joe

#2

Hi all,

I'm looking for a few different opinions. First off we are avid VP
players that reside in Canada. We usually like to stay and play at

the

Red Rock casino in Vegas. Our game of choice is .50 10/7 Double

Bonus

and our usual daily run-thru is approx. 30 thousand a day. This
normally gets our room comped and usually one big comped meal per

4 day

stay. Playing 10/7 DB has given us some fairly large swings in

bankroll

and what I have been wondering is that maybe playing an 8/5

progressive

with it's lower variance and dollar for dollar point status

wouldn't be

a better overall game for us. Any thoughts on this subject???

Joe
####################################################################

Hi,

Your variance would drop by more than a 3rd, 29 to 20, but you would
no longer be playing a positive game at reset, need a $5500 royal I
think? to be at the same level as 10/7 and the variance goes up as
the jackpot goes up. i am sure the more math oriented mambers can
give better answer.

Free rooms at Red Rock playing a positve game, good job!

M J

···

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "veres1" <jveres@...> wrote:

#3

Joe asked for opinions on playing 8/5 Progressive rather than 10/7
Double Bonus.

I'm assuming you mean 8/5 Bonus Poker. If you meant 8/5 Jacks or Better,
or 8/5 Double Bonus, all bets are off.

Playing three days at $30,000 points per day, you'll earn 90,000 points
at 8/5 Bonus and 45,000 points at 10/7 DB. At reset, 8/5 Bonus is 1%
tighter than 10/7 DB, so these extra 45,000 points will cost you $900.
If you're spending these points at their restaurants (where 600 points
equal a dollar), your extra points will be worth $75. Creating an
expected loss of $900 to ease your food costs by $75 is not a good
investment.

You say you're playing $30,000 per day. Even with two of you, that's a
lot. Assuming 800 hands per hour, that's 15 hours a day --- or 7.5 hours
apiece if you play equally. It may well not be possible to get two
adjacent seats (or even two seats at all) as the Optimum Play machines
frequently have a butt in every seat. If you have an intolerance to
sitting near smokers, you'll have less opportunities to move at 10/7
because all the other seats will be full. At 8/5 Bonus, there will be
plenty of empty seats unless the progressive is quite high.

You are correct that the variance is higher on 10/7 DB. According to
Video Poker for Winners, playing 36,000 hands ($90,000), you have a
6.27% chance of being down two royals ($4,000) or more at 10/7 DB. With
8/5 Bonus at reset, you have a 4.89% chance. The numbers will be
different for every possible loss amount. Will a $4,000 loss be
disastrous for you? Every player has a different tolerance for these
figures.

Finally, few players know both games equally. 8/5 Bonus is MUCH more
difficult than 10/7 DB to play perfectly (should that be your goal), and
most players give up quite a bit when they play progressives. Playing
progressives accurately is tough, with numerous adjustments necessary as
the progressive rises.

Bob Dancer

For a 3-day free trial of Video Poker for Winners, the best video poker
computer trainer ever invented, go to //www.videopokerforwinners.com

#4

Finally, few players know both games equally. 8/5 Bonus is MUCH more
difficult than 10/7 DB to play perfectly (should that be your goal),

Huh? At reset 8/5 bonus poker plays almost exactly the same as JOB. In
fact, using JOB strategy only costs .01%.

and

most players give up quite a bit when they play progressives. Playing
progressives accurately is tough, with numerous adjustments necessary

as

the progressive rises.

While some adjustments are necessary to play perfectly they usually
have small impacts on the overall payback unless the RF gets extremely
high. Of course, the play will be positive by then anyway.

Dick

···

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "Bob Dancer" <bob.dancer@...> wrote:

#5

Hi all,

I'm looking for a few different opinions. First off we are avid VP
players that reside in Canada. We usually like to stay and play at

the

Red Rock casino in Vegas. Our game of choice is .50 10/7 Double

Bonus

and our usual daily run-thru is approx. 30 thousand a day. This
normally gets our room comped and usually one big comped meal per 4

day

stay. Playing 10/7 DB has given us some fairly large swings in

bankroll

and what I have been wondering is that maybe playing an 8/5

progressive

with it's lower variance and dollar for dollar point status

wouldn't be

a better overall game for us. Any thoughts on this subject???

Joe, the post that mentioned $5500 as the RF value should have been
5500 credits. Since you mentioned .50 play this would be around $2750
although I suspect you already figured that out. Also, note that this
game has a variance of almost 39 when it gets to this level. Quite a
bit higher than DB. However, even with this value BP usually has
smaller swings. (variance is not everything)

If I were in your shoes, I'd probably play them both. I'm assuming
you can play both with reasonable accuracy and feel comfortable
switching games. I'd play the BP progressive if it is high enough, if
not, I'd play the DB. This will get you more points than just playing
DB.

Just make sure you get lots of two pairs playing BP and hit all your
quads playing DB :wink:

Dick

···

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "veres1" <jveres@...> wrote:

#6

With the exception of not taking into account the current amount of
the 8/5 Bonus Progressive, this is one of the best responses I have
read on vpFREE today.

Joe asked for opinions on playing 8/5 Progressive rather than 10/7
Double Bonus.

I'm assuming you mean 8/5 Bonus Poker. If you meant 8/5 Jacks or

Better,

or 8/5 Double Bonus, all bets are off.

Playing three days at $30,000 points per day, you'll earn 90,000

points

at 8/5 Bonus and 45,000 points at 10/7 DB. At reset, 8/5 Bonus is

1%

tighter than 10/7 DB, so these extra 45,000 points will cost you

$900.

If you're spending these points at their restaurants (where 600

points

equal a dollar), your extra points will be worth $75. Creating an
expected loss of $900 to ease your food costs by $75 is not a good
investment.

You say you're playing $30,000 per day. Even with two of you,

that's a

lot. Assuming 800 hands per hour, that's 15 hours a day --- or 7.5

hours

apiece if you play equally. It may well not be possible to get two
adjacent seats (or even two seats at all) as the Optimum Play

machines

frequently have a butt in every seat. If you have an intolerance to
sitting near smokers, you'll have less opportunities to move at

10/7

because all the other seats will be full. At 8/5 Bonus, there will

be

plenty of empty seats unless the progressive is quite high.

You are correct that the variance is higher on 10/7 DB. According

to

Video Poker for Winners, playing 36,000 hands ($90,000), you have a
6.27% chance of being down two royals ($4,000) or more at 10/7 DB.

With

8/5 Bonus at reset, you have a 4.89% chance. The numbers will be
different for every possible loss amount. Will a $4,000 loss be
disastrous for you? Every player has a different tolerance for

these

figures.

Finally, few players know both games equally. 8/5 Bonus is MUCH

more

difficult than 10/7 DB to play perfectly (should that be your

goal), and

most players give up quite a bit when they play progressives.

Playing

progressives accurately is tough, with numerous adjustments

necessary as

the progressive rises.

Bob Dancer

Hi all,

I'm looking for a few different opinions. First off we are avid VP
players that reside in Canada. We usually like to stay and play at
the
Red Rock casino in Vegas. Our game of choice is .50 10/7 Double Bonus
and our usual daily run-thru is approx. 30 thousand a day. This
normally gets our room comped and usually one big comped meal per 4
day
stay. Playing 10/7 DB has given us some fairly large swings in
bankroll
and what I have been wondering is that maybe playing an 8/5
progressive
with it's lower variance and dollar for dollar point status wouldn't
be
a better overall game for us. Any thoughts on this subject???

Joe

···

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "Bob Dancer" <bob.dancer@...> wrote:

#7

Charles wrote: With the exception of not taking into account the current
amount of
the 8/5 Bonus Progressive, this is one of the best responses I have
read on vpFREE today.

Thank you.

Bob Dancer

For a 3-day free trial of Video Poker for Winners, the best video poker
computer trainer ever invented, go to //www.videopokerforwinners.com

#8

Two items to consider:

1. More about Variance --- When progressives are discussed you'll
always hear "variance is higher on the progressive" but why is it?
Where does this increased variance come from?

Variance is increased by two factors. One is the higher payoff for
the RF; and the other factor is the change in strategy necessary for
optimum play of the machine. If a standard strategy is used without
modification you can still enjoy the higher RF payout, but without
experiencing the short term losses from (for example) breaking up a
pair of Aces to draw to the AKTs (8/5 BP 7000 RF).

Yes, yes, yes, I know. The overall long term payoff will be lower.
However, for some players the trade-off is worth the difference.
Using FVP software, 8/5 BP with the RF at 7000 coins, an *adjusted*
basic strategy returns 100.83% and the *standard* basic strategy
returns 100.65%

2. How big is the progressive? Someone already said maybe you
could play both machines. I've started doing this when 10/7 DB is
available along with 9/6 PROG or 8/5 PROG. I'll play 10/7 DB unless
the BP progressive is around 6000 coins or higher, then I'll move
over to the progressive machine.

You'll often hear "never play for comps" but do consider comps in
total return. If you shift play based on the level of the
progressive you get the benefit of higher comp points along with
always playing a positive machine - the best of both worlds.

Mac
www.CasinoCamper.com

#9

As I recall, the most important adjustment is when the progressive
gets to 5000 units. The high pair would then be thrown in favor of
3roy. As royal gets higher I think there some small changes to holding
3 card low SF depending on discards. Of course on 8/5 prog I recall
8800 units is an entry point to play. I think we can expect to lose
about 5% + 2.5% while waitng for royal. The 2.5% is the amount
returned by royal. each time royal doubles one gains 2.5%. Therefore,
a quarter royal of $3000 is a positive play. However, entry at that
point one still risks 7.5% of the handle till royal shows. At 500
hands an hour you should average a royal about every 60+ hours. Long
range loss while waiting for .25 royal would be about $35-$40 an hour.
I didn't take time to figure that out, but I think it's a good
estimate. I think $10,000 bankroll is necessary if all you play is
quarter 8/5 progs. With no real bad luck the bankroll should build.
Everything is x4 if playing dollar progs. These figures are recalled
from the cobwebs of my mind. These are not exact figures but loose
estimates. Somewhere along the line I determined 8800 units is where I
play; if some cb or comps. It only gets better from there. The real
problem is finding ripe progressives, unless you live in Vegas. These
days an out of towner only finds them once in a while. And... ya gotta
have the funds.

Your right on the money "...jacks". The JOB strategy is close enough.

Cheers....Jeep
.
.

Huh? At reset 8/5 bonus poker plays almost exactly the same as JOB.

In

fact, using JOB strategy only costs .01%.
>
While some adjustments are necessary to play perfectly they usually
have small impacts on the overall payback unless the RF gets

extremely

···

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "mroejacks" <rgmustain@...> wrote:

high. Of course, the play will be positive by then anyway.

Dick

#10

Makes me wonder what you consider a bad post ... Most of the numbers
were OK but they did not take into account the potential for
multipliers, etc. Since comps are a big part of the question it's
really hard to say anything without knowing. But all that is nothing
compared to Bob's claim that 10/7 DB is "much" easier to play than BP.
This is so ridiculous it boggles the mind.

Dick

···

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "Charles" <fromthevault@...> wrote:

With the exception of not taking into account the current amount of
the 8/5 Bonus Progressive, this is one of the best responses I have
read on vpFREE today.