but I can beat it most of the time, give it a try, if you can beat this you can probably beat the even easier IGT Heads Up video poker machine:
Cepheus Poker Project http://poker-play.srv.ualberta.ca/
Cepheus Poker Project http://poker-play.srv.ualberta.ca/
View on poker-play.srv.ualberta.ca http://poker-play.srv.ualberta.ca/
Preview by Yahoo
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
I promise you can't beat it long-term. It plays within 1 big blind per 1000
hands of the optimal strategy.
Ed
On Fri, Apr 10, 2015 at 1:44 PM, nightoftheiguana2000@yahoo.com [vpFREE] < vpFREE@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
but I can beat it most of the time, give it a try, if you can beat this
you can probably beat the even easier IGT Heads Up video poker machine:Cepheus Poker Project http://poker-play.srv.ualberta.ca/
Cepheus Poker Project http://poker-play.srv.ualberta.ca/
View on poker-play.srv.ualberta.ca http://poker-play.srv.ualberta.ca/
Preview by Yahoo[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Ed wrote: "I promise you can't beat it long-term. It plays within 1 big blind per 1000
hands of the optimal strategy."
I think they made some calculation mistakes or they dumbed down the online bot for some reason. It doesn't take falls like the IGT bot to try to get you to keep playing but I think some of its lines become too narrow and too readable, a mistake the IGT bot also makes. Have you tried playing it? I'm not arguing that the optimal strategy would still be exploitable, I'm arguing that it's not quite optimal strategy yet, for some reason. University of Alberta hasn't published all the details, so they might be holding back for some reason, like maybe they hope to get some big stakes challenges.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
I've been following this project for 8 years now. Even back then it was
good enough to beat--or at least play even with--the best heads-up limit
hold'em players in the world. It is better now.
They claim it's essentially perfect, and while I haven't independently
verified the claim, I have absolutely no reason to doubt it. Their
methodology seems sounds, both in how they derived the strategy and how
they test for it's distance from the optimal strategy.
None of these top limit hold 'em players I'm referring to doubts the claim,
at least not to my knowledge, and several of them explicitly endorse it.
These are smart people and this is a result 15 years in the making.
The web interface is clunky, so it's kind of academic b/c it's not feasible
to play many many hands against it.
Ed
On Fri, Apr 10, 2015 at 2:59 PM, nightoftheiguana2000@yahoo.com [vpFREE] < vpFREE@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
Ed wrote: "I promise you can't beat it long-term. It plays within 1 big
blind per 1000
hands of the optimal strategy."I think they made some calculation mistakes or they dumbed down the online
bot for some reason. It doesn't take falls like the IGT bot to try to get
you to keep playing but I think some of its lines become too narrow and too
readable, a mistake the IGT bot also makes. Have you tried playing it? I'm
not arguing that the optimal strategy would still be exploitable, I'm
arguing that it's not quite optimal strategy yet, for some reason.
University of Alberta hasn't published all the details, so they might be
holding back for some reason, like maybe they hope to get some big stakes
challenges.[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
NOTI, are you playing max EV or min-cost royal vs the bot?
I beat Cepheus handily.
I played non-deceptive 'ABC' Poker anddespite paying a few times to see it's cardsand making one big 'mistake', I ended up555 Chips ahead in the 100 hand game.
I absolutely cannot agree it's either unbeatableor the best, because it's certainly not very good.
From: "nightoftheiguana2000@yahoo.com [vpFREE]" <vpFREE@yahoogroups.com>
To: vpFREE@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Friday, April 10, 2015 1:44 PM
Subject: [vpFREE] online poker bot, supposedly unbeatable ...
but I can beat it most of the time, give it a try, if you can beat this you can probably beat the even easier IGT Heads Up video poker machine:
Cepheus Poker Project http://poker-play.srv.ualberta.ca/
Cepheus Poker Project http://poker-play.srv.ualberta.ca/
View on poker-play.srv.ualberta.ca http://poker-play.srv.ualberta.ca/
Preview by Yahoo
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
#yiv7850731812 #yiv7850731812 -- #yiv7850731812ygrp-mkp {border:1px solid #d8d8d8;font-family:Arial;margin:10px 0;padding:0 10px;}#yiv7850731812 #yiv7850731812ygrp-mkp hr {border:1px solid #d8d8d8;}#yiv7850731812 #yiv7850731812ygrp-mkp #yiv7850731812hd {color:#628c2a;font-size:85%;font-weight:700;line-height:122%;margin:10px 0;}#yiv7850731812 #yiv7850731812ygrp-mkp #yiv7850731812ads {margin-bottom:10px;}#yiv7850731812 #yiv7850731812ygrp-mkp .yiv7850731812ad {padding:0 0;}#yiv7850731812 #yiv7850731812ygrp-mkp .yiv7850731812ad p {margin:0;}#yiv7850731812 #yiv7850731812ygrp-mkp .yiv7850731812ad a {color:#0000ff;text-decoration:none;}#yiv7850731812 #yiv7850731812ygrp-sponsor #yiv7850731812ygrp-lc {font-family:Arial;}#yiv7850731812 #yiv7850731812ygrp-sponsor #yiv7850731812ygrp-lc #yiv7850731812hd {margin:10px 0px;font-weight:700;font-size:78%;line-height:122%;}#yiv7850731812 #yiv7850731812ygrp-sponsor #yiv7850731812ygrp-lc .yiv7850731812ad {margin-bottom:10px;padding:0 0;}#yiv7850731812 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Is it heads up limit or no limit. BTW, not knowing anything about it I'm gonna have to with Ed Miller's opinion on this one.
Yes, I assume there's something wrong with the Cepheus bot, too bad you can't play it for money. Either that or the UofA poker team is trying to pull off one gigantic fraud. Or they may have been fooled by their own massive computers, you know what the IBM salesmen always said: "garbage in, garbage out." The UofA preflop looks about right to me, of course I say that because it basically matches what I thought was optimum preflop as well, essentially made pairs and suited connectors are big and you don't cap the raises preflop. It's just funny, everybody swore the IGT bot was unbeatable, until Sklansky couldn't stop playing it for some reason, and now everyone says Cepheus is unbeatable. Sometimes a little bit of skepticism is a good thing.
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bp asks: "NOTI, are you playing max EV or min-cost royal vs the bot?"
You're probably just joking but in case you're not:
If there are payouts for specific hands, like badbeat jackpots or aces cracked, etc., then strategies that minimize the cost of hitting the jackpot can come into play.
Otherwise, my standard routine is to start with maxEV, but paying attention to the plays that are close in EV, in which case the variance can come into play. You can use the Certainty Equivalence to determine which is the better play from the Kelly perspective. Mostly I play Kelly optimal strategies. In the case of the Cepheus bot, you can't play it for money, therefore you can assume your bankroll is infinite.
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It's limit.
And, each hand, you start off with the same chips.240 chips per player each hand.Limit to bet or raise is 10 chips pre and post flop.Turn and River bet or raise is 20 chips.
Wish it was No Limit, because there were a lot oftimes I wanted to shove all in.
From: "mickeycrimm@yahoo.com [vpFREE]" <vpFREE@yahoogroups.com>
To: vpFREE@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Saturday, April 11, 2015 1:49 PM
Subject: Re: [vpFREE] online poker bot, supposedly unbeatable ...
Is it heads up limit or no limit. BTW, not knowing anything about it I'm gonna have to with Ed Miller's opinion on this one. #yiv0329074942 #yiv0329074942 -- #yiv0329074942ygrp-mkp {border:1px solid #d8d8d8;font-family:Arial;margin:10px 0;padding:0 10px;}#yiv0329074942 #yiv0329074942ygrp-mkp hr {border:1px solid #d8d8d8;}#yiv0329074942 #yiv0329074942ygrp-mkp #yiv0329074942hd {color:#628c2a;font-size:85%;font-weight:700;line-height:122%;margin:10px 0;}#yiv0329074942 #yiv0329074942ygrp-mkp #yiv0329074942ads {margin-bottom:10px;}#yiv0329074942 #yiv0329074942ygrp-mkp .yiv0329074942ad {padding:0 0;}#yiv0329074942 #yiv0329074942ygrp-mkp .yiv0329074942ad p {margin:0;}#yiv0329074942 #yiv0329074942ygrp-mkp .yiv0329074942ad a {color:#0000ff;text-decoration:none;}#yiv0329074942 #yiv0329074942ygrp-sponsor #yiv0329074942ygrp-lc {font-family:Arial;}#yiv0329074942 #yiv0329074942ygrp-sponsor #yiv0329074942ygrp-lc #yiv0329074942hd {margin:10px 0px;font-weight:700;font-size:78%;line-height:122%;}#yiv0329074942 #yiv0329074942ygrp-sponsor 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I somewhat followed a 2+2 thread on the limit heads up holdem machines a few years back. The best article I ever read on the game was "Investigating Heads Up Texas Holdem Poker" by Nick Christensen. You can google it. He gives a great analysis on how the game plays.
There is no rake in the game but I think it was estimated that maybe 1% of players had the talent to beat the game. Some people questioned why, if these 1%'ers could beat the game, they weren't playing it. The reply was with the limits offered they had better hourly rates in other spots.
I'm not a heads up expert and play very little poker these days. I'm spoiled rotten by my video poker, video keno and video line game play. But I knowEd Miller to be a heads up pro. If he says this Caephus bot is virtually unbeatable then I take his word for it.
I'm not a heads-up pro. But I know a number of them who were at the top
level of the game before people basically stopped playing limit hold'em
heads-up for real money. Linked below is an article by one of these pros,
who made millions playing and is well-respected as one of the best.
http://poker-blog.srv.ualberta.ca/2015/01/08/humans-robots-and-the-consequences.html
The IGT bot has nothing in common with this one, except that they are both
computer programs that play the same game.
The claims in this thread are backed with essentially zero evidence. The
claims the UofA team has made are backed by a number of peer-reviewed
papers, and the scrutiny over at least 8 years of some of the top players
in the world. There's not much else to say.
Ed
On Sun, Apr 12, 2015 at 4:25 AM, mickeycrimm@yahoo.com [vpFREE] < vpFREE@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
I somewhat followed a 2+2 thread on the limit heads up holdem machines a
few years back. The best article I ever read on the game was "Investigating
Heads Up Texas Holdem Poker" by Nick Christensen. You can google it. He
gives a great analysis on how the game plays.There is no rake in the game but I think it was estimated that maybe 1% of
players had the talent to beat the game. Some people questioned why, if
these 1%'ers could beat the game, they weren't playing it. The reply was
with the limits offered they had better hourly rates in other spots.I'm not a heads up expert and play very little poker these days. I'm
spoiled rotten by my video poker, video keno and video line game play. But
I knowEd Miller to be a heads up pro. If he says this Caephus bot is
virtually unbeatable then I take his word for it.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Ed, that was a great article by Paradis. BTW, I have Small Stakes No Limit Holdem on kindle. Its a great read. No limit holdem hands have varying degree's of both showdown equity and bluff equity. That's very good. I had never thought about it in such terms before. It cuts right to the chase.
fyi, another poker bot, much better interface, plays limit and no limit, available as an app, but harder to beat imho:
Neo Poker Bot - Advanced Poker AI http://neopokerbot.com/
Neo Poker Bot - Advanced Poker AI http://neopokerbot.com/ Neo Poker Bot - Play Fixed Limit and No Limit Texas Hold'em with Gold and Bronze Medals Winner of 2012/2013 Annual Computer Poker Competitions
View on neopokerb... http://neopokerbot.com/
Preview by Yahoo
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