vpFREE2 Forums

NYNY VP Inventory Upgrade

Q#1: I'd like to play those machines, BUT how could anyone play PE
higher than $1 unless that person files a Schedule C as a
professional gambler? Otherwise, even at the $2 level and assuming
that you have offsetting losses to itemize on Schedule A, more than a
few W-2s for quads @$1,200 would cause you to forfeit your other
itemized deductions AND pay the dreaded Alternative Minimum Tax.
[That's before even considering state income taxes for most non-
Nevadans.] In other words, a non-pro who played the game very long
would go bankrupt paying taxes on non-existent income. Am I missing
a legal tax tactic?

Q#2: If Bally Mfg. and casinos want losers/amateurs to play $2 PE,
they could take a great leap forward by reducing the pay on quads to
599 units. [I think I recall IGT doing something similar with the SF
pay on some $5 JOB machines.] And if Bally wanted to be sporting,
they could give some of the shorted-pay back by paying a ?? coin
bonus when you're dealt quads and must discard one.

GGMan

···

  Date: Thu, 04 Mar 2004 10:42:01 -0800
   From: John Kelly <jwkelly@flash.net>
Subject: Re: NYNY VP Inventory Upgrade?
The author verified this personally. He was being obtuse about the
denominations because he didn't want to alert pros and/or NYNY.
However, on his last two visits, both machines were being played by
the same gentleman, very rapidly, at the hightest denom, so he thinks
his concerns have become largely moot. The denoms are $1, $2, and $5.

ggman444 wrote:

snip

Q#2: If Bally Mfg. and casinos want losers/amateurs to play $2 PE,
they could take a great leap forward by reducing the pay on quads to
599 units. [I think I recall IGT doing something similar with the SF
pay on some $5 JOB machines.] And if Bally wanted to be sporting,
they could give some of the shorted-pay back by paying a ?? coin
bonus when you're dealt quads and must discard one.

snip

?? ... when you're dealt quads and must discard one. ?? What do you mean by that? Can you give an example?

Thanks.

Bill Velek

he is talking about Pick-Em when you can only play one of the 2 dealt stacks so if you get dealt quads the best you can hope for is that
there is another pair behind to get a FH or you only get trips

···

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, Bill Velek <billvelek@a...> wrote:

ggman444 wrote:

snip

?? coin

> bonus when you're dealt quads and must discard one.

snip

?? ... when you're dealt quads and must discard one. ?? What do you
mean by that? Can you give an example?

Thanks.

Bill Velek

Why wouldn't you file a Schedule C, since this would allow deduction of various expenses? My horseracing friends have done this in the past. Perhaps Jean could address this; while I am a lawyer, I haven't researched it.

···

----- Original Message -----
  From: ggman444
  To: vpFREE@yahoogroups.com
  Sent: Sunday, March 07, 2004 7:03 PM
  Subject: [vpFREE] NYNY VP Inventory Upgrade

  Q#1: I'd like to play those machines, BUT how could anyone play PE
  higher than $1 unless that person files a Schedule C as a
  professional gambler? Otherwise, even at the $2 level and assuming
  that you have offsetting losses to itemize on Schedule A, more than a
  few W-2s for quads @$1,200 would cause you to forfeit your other
  itemized deductions AND pay the dreaded Alternative Minimum Tax.
  [That's before even considering state income taxes for most non-
  Nevadans.] In other words, a non-pro who played the game very long
  would go bankrupt paying taxes on non-existent income. Am I missing
  a legal tax tactic?

  Q#2: If Bally Mfg. and casinos want losers/amateurs to play $2 PE,
  they could take a great leap forward by reducing the pay on quads to
  599 units. [I think I recall IGT doing something similar with the SF
  pay on some $5 JOB machines.] And if Bally wanted to be sporting,
  they could give some of the shorted-pay back by paying a ?? coin
  bonus when you're dealt quads and must discard one.

  GGMan
  >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
    Date: Thu, 04 Mar 2004 10:42:01 -0800
     From: John Kelly <jwkelly@flash.net>
  Subject: Re: NYNY VP Inventory Upgrade?
  The author verified this personally. He was being obtuse about the
  denominations because he didn't want to alert pros and/or NYNY.
  However, on his last two visits, both machines were being played by
  the same gentleman, very rapidly, at the hightest denom, so he thinks
  his concerns have become largely moot. The denoms are $1, $2, and $5.

  vpFREE Links:

  http://www.west-point.org/users/usma1955/20228/VP/Links.htm

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    a.. To visit your group on the web, go to:
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

And if Bally wanted to be sporting,

they could give some of the shorted-pay back by paying a ?? coin
bonus when you're dealt quads and must discard one.

snip

?? ... when you're dealt quads and must discard one. ?? What do you mean by that? Can you give an example?

Thanks.

Bill Velek

In Pick'Em, you can only hold three of the cards you are dealt (well, technically, you are dealt a ALL of your cards and you choose one pile or the other, but only four of the cards are "face up", and you can only hold three of these). You cannot keep the dealt quad, you have to throw one of the cards away.

It's not a happy moment.

John, who has unfortunately been there and done that.

Have to go through a few hoops before can file Schedule C for
gambling. Must show it is not just a hobby & the like. Certainly is
better but not always an option.

Why wouldn't you file a Schedule C, since this would allow

deduction of various expenses? My horseracing friends have done this
in the past. Perhaps Jean could address this; while I am a lawyer, I
haven't researched it.

  From: ggman444
  To: vpFREE@yahoogroups.com
  Sent: Sunday, March 07, 2004 7:03 PM
  Subject: [vpFREE] NYNY VP Inventory Upgrade

  Q#1: I'd like to play those machines, BUT how could anyone play

PE

  higher than $1 unless that person files a Schedule C as a
  professional gambler? Otherwise, even at the $2 level and

assuming

  that you have offsetting losses to itemize on Schedule A, more

than a

  few W-2s for quads @$1,200 would cause you to forfeit your other
  itemized deductions AND pay the dreaded Alternative Minimum Tax.
  [That's before even considering state income taxes for most non-
  Nevadans.] In other words, a non-pro who played the game very

long

  would go bankrupt paying taxes on non-existent income. Am I

missing

  a legal tax tactic?

  Q#2: If Bally Mfg. and casinos want losers/amateurs to play $2

PE,

  they could take a great leap forward by reducing the pay on quads

to

  599 units. [I think I recall IGT doing something similar with

the SF

  pay on some $5 JOB machines.] And if Bally wanted to be sporting,
  they could give some of the shorted-pay back by paying a ?? coin
  bonus when you're dealt quads and must discard one.

  GGMan
  >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
    Date: Thu, 04 Mar 2004 10:42:01 -0800
     From: John Kelly <jwkelly@f...>
  Subject: Re: NYNY VP Inventory Upgrade?
  The author verified this personally. He was being obtuse about

the

  denominations because he didn't want to alert pros and/or NYNY.
  However, on his last two visits, both machines were being played

by

  the same gentleman, very rapidly, at the hightest denom, so he

thinks

  his concerns have become largely moot. The denoms are $1, $2, and

$5.

···

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "Peter Connor" <pyconnor@c...> wrote:

  ----- Original Message -----

  vpFREE Links:

  http://www.west-point.org/users/usma1955/20228/VP/Links.htm

--------------------------------------------------------------------

----------

  Yahoo! Groups Links

    a.. To visit your group on the web, go to:
    http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vpFREE/
      
    b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
    vpFREE-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
      
    c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of

Service.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

<<Why wouldn't you file a Schedule C, since this would allow deduction of various expenses? My horseracing friends have done this in the past. Perhaps Jean could address this; while I am a lawyer, I haven't researched it.>>

This is easier said than done. There are many pros AND cons to this solution - which is covered thoroughly in "Tax Help for the Frugal Gambler." One of the biggest con is that you have to pay SE tax - which can, in many cases, almost wipe out all "savings" although it might have some future retirement benefits, which can be a debatable pro factor if you are pessimistic about SS.

···

________________________________________
Jean $¢ott - Go to http://www.FrugalGambler.biz
for VP software and strategy cards; "frugal" books;
and the NEW "Tax Help for the Frugal Gambler."

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

It happened to me this weekend as well. Dealt four fives but I did
get a full house out of it which I guess was the best I could do.

  And if Bally wanted to be sporting,
>>they could give some of the shorted-pay back by paying a ?? coin
>>bonus when you're dealt quads and must discard one.
>
>
> snip
>
> ?? ... when you're dealt quads and must discard one. ?? What do

you

> mean by that? Can you give an example?
>
> Thanks.
>
> Bill Velek

In Pick'Em, you can only hold three of the cards you are dealt

(well,

technically, you are dealt a ALL of your cards and you choose one

pile

or the other, but only four of the cards are "face up", and you can

only

hold three of these). You cannot keep the dealt quad, you have to

throw

···

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, John Kelly <jwkelly@f...> wrote:

one of the cards away.

It's not a happy moment.

John, who has unfortunately been there and done that.

P(dealt quads in P'em, therefore useless) is 1 in 20,825 or 1 in
every 8.8 quads; at 800 hph, 1 in 26 hours.

P(P'em quad) is 1 in 2361, among them, there are slightly more (by
20%) 2 ¨ 4's :
the ratio of (2 ¨ 4 quads) to (3 ¨ 4 quads) is 29 to 24, or 1.21 to
1.

The frequency of (2 ¨ 4 quad) is 1 in 4318, the frequency of (3 ¨ 4
quad) is 1 in 5208.

L.Wluiki

···

******************************************************

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "hansjurgent" <hansjurgent16@h...>
wrote:

It happened to me this weekend as well. Dealt four fives but I

did

get a full house out of it which I guess was the best I could do.

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, John Kelly <jwkelly@f...> wrote:
>
> And if Bally wanted to be sporting,
> >>they could give some of the shorted-pay back by paying a ??

coin

> >>bonus when you're dealt quads and must discard one.
> >
> >
> > snip
> >
> > ?? ... when you're dealt quads and must discard one. ?? What

do

you
> > mean by that? Can you give an example?
> >
> > Thanks.
> >
> > Bill Velek
>
> In Pick'Em, you can only hold three of the cards you are dealt
(well,
> technically, you are dealt a ALL of your cards and you choose

one

pile
> or the other, but only four of the cards are "face up", and you

can

only
> hold three of these). You cannot keep the dealt quad, you have

to

throw
> one of the cards away.
>
> It's not a happy moment.
>
> John, who has unfortunately been there and done that.

I've been trying to figure out your post. These are my thoughts, and maybe you can help me out a little.

lwluiki wrote:

P(dealt quads in P'em, therefore useless) is 1 in 20,825 or 1 in
every 8.8 quads; at 800 hph, 1 in 26 hours.

This comes from simple math -- 52!/48!/4!/13= 20,825 -- so far so good.

P(P'em quad) is 1 in 2361,...

I've been trying to sort that one out, but am probably approaching this wrong. Perhaps you can steer me back on course. I started out by dropping down to a 51 card deck, since we are always discarding one card that we can see but can't use; it doesn't matter which stack it is in. This gives us 51!/46!/5!= 2,349,060 ways to make a hand from the remaining 51 cards, out of which there are 12*47= 564 quads that are possible (12 ranks, because one rank is always automatically eliminated by the 52nd card that we have seen but won't use). That gives us 564/2,349,060= 1 in 4,165 combinations that contain quads. By doing it that way, I felt that I was always accounting for the 'dealt' quads that we would be forced to throw away, but obviously are figures are FAR apart. It would be most helpful to me if you would post your math ... or your source ... for your 1 in 2361 figure.

... among them, there are slightly more (by
20%) 2 �� 4's :
the ratio of (2 �� 4 quads) to (3 �� 4 quads) is 29 to 24, or 1.21 to
1.

snip

This is where you might have lost me. To begin with, my e-mail reader -- and my browser when I went to vpFree Home page to see if it is displayed differently -- shows sort of an upper-case FL in bold type except that the F seems to also have a little tick or accept mark superimposed on its upper-right corner, and those letters are then followed by a couple of dots (don't know the name for the symbol, but it looks like one that might be used in some foreign languages). Ordinarily, I understand FL to represent 'flush' in vp, but that is obviously an impossibility when we are discussing quads, so I thought that maybe it means "flopped", meaning the number of the quads that are shown; that would make sense in the context of your discussion, but I haven't bothered to check the math yet since our original figures don't agree. I look forward to hearing from you.

Bill Velek

I'm still working on this. I know that you're sharper than I am at this math, so I'm assuming that you are correct, but I'm trying to see if I can reason my way through this.

I think that my original math that concluded that there are 1 in 4,165 combinations was accurate for what I had in mind, but my logical approach itself was wrong because I see now that that figure represents the chances only when stacks are randomly selected. In other words, if I were to play the game by always selecting the left-sided stack and never the right-sided stack, then I believe the results would be precisely 1 in 4,165. I used that approach because I initially was thinking of those instances when a person doesn't know which stack to pick because part of the quad does not appear as the top card in either stack. But as I continued to ponder this, I realized that that was not the correct approach because it is contrary to what happens when strategy is applied. Back to the drawing board :-/

Okay, so we know that in order to be even possible to end with quads, one of two possible states must exist:
1.) we either have a pair on the far left-side, meaning that the other pair to make quads is in one of the two stacks that we can select, and might or might not appear as a top card; or ...
2.) we must have trips in one of the stacks that we can select, which necessarily means that the top card will _always_ match with one of our other two cards, HOWEVER, sometimes proper strategy requires that we reject that pair.

Realizing that strategic discards of a pair will reduce the number of quads completed, I now realize that this problem is much more challenging than I have time to play around with. But since I like to broaden my mind in regards to how we compute probabilities, I'd sure like to hear from you as to how this is done.

Thanks.

Bill Velek

I apologize for the confusion: the weird symbol ¡°¡ú¡±
started out as a ¡°right pointing arrow¡± but the unicode was lost
when I posted the message. Below, I¡¯ll use the word ¡°to¡± in place
of ¡°¡ú¡±.

¡°P(P¡¯em quad) is 1 in 2361¡± is from the WinPoker analysis of the
game.
Also, the return for P¡¯em is 99.9531% according to WinPoker
analysis, but is 99.9536 according to Skip Hughes on his vphomepage.
I¡¯ll use the WinPoker figure, but hope someone can enlighten me
here.

I wondered, among the 4-of-a-kinds that I hit while playing P¡¯em, on
average, how many of them started out from a pair (2 to quad) vs.
from 3-of-a-kind (3 to quad).
The frequency of (3 to quad) is easy to get because the optimal
strategy is to always hold all 3-of -a -kinds WHENEVER IT¡¯S
PHYSICALLY POSSIBLE TO DO SO.
From there, instead of trying to figure out the frequency of the (2
to quad), I cheated and simply made the observation that the
reciprocals of these two numbers must add up to 1/2361.

Getting a dealt quad in P¡¯em is my second least favorite hand in
this game, I think the worst hand is when you have a choice between
two pairs and you ended up with a full house!----because THAT
involves more than a sense of helplessness.
Also, since I bypassed a high pair to hit my first P¡¯em royal, I
have made an adjustment to the optimal strategy: Royal (INCLUDING
Ace high royals) > High pair. The cost of this adjustment is 0.0011%
(game now returns 99.9520% instead of 99.9531%) and I am willing to
accept this trade-off (my thinking here is that from the choices:
Royal Ace high/ High pair, the chance of ending up with a quad is
the same as the chance of ending up with a royal ¨C they are both 1
in 1128, and so I¡¯ll go for the royal even though it will cost me an
average of 19 cents each time, once every 10 (?) hours or so,
playing for quarters) but then may be what I REALLY NEED to do is to
pay less attention when I play this game!

I use the number of certain rare hands (4-Deuces in Deuces Wild type
games, 4-Aces in Double Bonus, 4-of a kind in P¡¯em) as a yardstick
to independently check the approximate number of total hands I
played in each game. The trustworthiness of this type of yardsticks
no doubt increases with the number of hands played, but for the
small number of hands that I¡¯ve played, my ¡°quad yardstick for P¡¯em¡±
is not very trustworthy, to wit:

Total no. of P¡¯em hands played = 267,900; Quads = 125; S.F.s = 3;
Royals = 2.
So I am over in quads, WAY under in S.F.s, and WAY over in Royals
(royal cycle for this game is an amazing 351,818), and of course,
still nowhere near ¡°long term¡±; but thanks to the two royals, I¡¯ll
probably be ahead in this game for a VERY long time.

L.Wluiki

···

*******************************************************
P(dealt quads in P'em, therefore useless) is 1 in 20,825 or 1 in
every 8.8 quads; at 800 hph, 1 in 26 hours.

P(P'em quad) is 1 in 2361, among them, there are slightly more (by
20%) ¡°2 to quads¡±:
the ratio of (2 to quads) to (3 to quads) is 29 to 24, or 1.21 to
1.

The frequency of (2 to quad) is 1 in 4318, the frequency of (3 to
quad) is 1 in 5208.

L.Wluiki
*********************************************************************
   
--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, Bill Velek <billvelek@a...> wrote:

I'm still working on this. I know that you're sharper than I am

at this

math, so I'm assuming that you are correct, but I'm trying to see

if I

can reason my way through this.

I think that my original math that concluded that there are 1 in

4,165

combinations was accurate for what I had in mind, but my logical
approach itself was wrong because I see now that that figure

represents

the chances only when stacks are randomly selected. In other

words, if

I were to play the game by always selecting the left-sided stack

and

never the right-sided stack, then I believe the results would be
precisely 1 in 4,165. I used that approach because I initially

was

thinking of those instances when a person doesn't know which stack

to

pick because part of the quad does not appear as the top card in

either

stack. But as I continued to ponder this, I realized that that

was not

the correct approach because it is contrary to what happens when
strategy is applied. Back to the drawing board :-/

Okay, so we know that in order to be even possible to end with

quads,

one of two possible states must exist:
1.) we either have a pair on the far left-side, meaning that the

other

pair to make quads is in one of the two stacks that we can select,

and

might or might not appear as a top card; or ...
2.) we must have trips in one of the stacks that we can select,

which

necessarily means that the top card will _always_ match with one

of our

other two cards, HOWEVER, sometimes proper strategy requires that

we

reject that pair.

Realizing that strategic discards of a pair will reduce the number

of

quads completed, I now realize that this problem is much more
challenging than I have time to play around with. But since I

like to

broaden my mind in regards to how we compute probabilities, I'd

sure

like to hear from you as to how this is done.

Thanks.

Bill Velek