vpFREE2 Forums

NSUD Question

#1

There are literally hundreds of hands in NSUDs like the one you describe.
They all contain a K-hi RF2, plus a straight penalty, plus a low flush
penalty. I found one hand where the difference in EV was 1/10,000 of a coin!

VPSM is a good approximation. Software that lets you analyze any
particular hand, like VPW, will always be correct if there is any conflict with
VPSM.

In your example, changing the 3h to the 4h changes the perfect play to the
KQs. That's because the value of the redraw drops a bit, because of fewer
possible SFs and straights.

Brian

···

=============================================

In a message dated 4/27/2009 1:15:03 P.M. Pacific Daylight Time,
futrend@yahoo.com writes:

I am curious about a minor discrepancy apparently discovered
between two software tools for learning NSUD. The question
arrives when one is dealt the King, Queen and 5 Spades,
the 3 of Hearts and the 10 of Clubs.

VPSM Advance Strategy Master states a value of .3273 for a
King and Queen "suited" with 2 penalty cards. This value is
just above a Redraw value of .3201.

It seems like the only 2 penalty cards in the above hand are
the 5 (a flush penalty) and the "10" (a straight penalty).
If these are the only penalty cards, should not you hold the
King and Queen of Spades as stated in the above values and/or
hand rankings.

Video Poker for Winners software claims the correct hold is
a Redraw of all 5 cards and places its value at 1.6196 on
a redraw and a value of 1.6167 on holding the suited King
and Queen of Spades.

This is obviously a minor penalty card situation, but I was
wondering which software has it wrong, or am I missing something
in assuming a conflict.

Thanks,
Bob

------------------------------------

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#2

Thanks Brian,

Yes, now there is some logic that I can appreciate. I did notice
that if I slight changes in the straight penalty I could also get different results. I am curious if anyone trys to learn, or makes
a print out these specific hands. I would think one might just
apply one strategy such as that in VPSM and so much for saying
you try to play perfect strategy in NSUD.

Bob

···

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, bjaygold@... wrote:

There are literally hundreds of hands in NSUDs like the one you describe.
They all contain a K-hi RF2, plus a straight penalty, plus a low flush
penalty. I found one hand where the difference in EV was 1/10,000 of a coin!

VPSM is a good approximation. Software that lets you analyze any
particular hand, like VPW, will always be correct if there is any conflict with
VPSM.

In your example, changing the 3h to the 4h changes the perfect play to the
KQs. That's because the value of the redraw drops a bit, because of fewer
possible SFs and straights.

Brian

=============================================

In a message dated 4/27/2009 1:15:03 P.M. Pacific Daylight Time,
futrend@... writes:

I am curious about a minor discrepancy apparently discovered
between two software tools for learning NSUD. The question
arrives when one is dealt the King, Queen and 5 Spades,
the 3 of Hearts and the 10 of Clubs.

VPSM Advance Strategy Master states a value of .3273 for a
King and Queen "suited" with 2 penalty cards. This value is
just above a Redraw value of .3201.

It seems like the only 2 penalty cards in the above hand are
the 5 (a flush penalty) and the "10" (a straight penalty).
If these are the only penalty cards, should not you hold the
King and Queen of Spades as stated in the above values and/or
hand rankings.

Video Poker for Winners software claims the correct hold is
a Redraw of all 5 cards and places its value at 1.6196 on
a redraw and a value of 1.6167 on holding the suited King
and Queen of Spades.

This is obviously a minor penalty card situation, but I was
wondering which software has it wrong, or am I missing something
in assuming a conflict.

Thanks,
Bob

------------------------------------

vpFREE Links: http://members.cox.net/vpfree/Links.htm

Yahoo! Groups Links

**************Access 350+ FREE radio stations anytime from anywhere on the
web. Get the Radio Toolbar!
(http://toolbar.aol.com/aolradio/download.html?ncid=emlcntusdown00000003)

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

#3

If you are looking for a list of all the RF2 KH and the relevant penalty
cards, there is a page among the appendices in Dancer's NSUD book which
contains all the possibilities. Interesting to see, perhaps, but a lot of
work to memorize.

···

On Mon, Apr 27, 2009 at 9:02 PM, futrend <futrend@yahoo.com> wrote:

Thanks Brian,

Yes, now there is some logic that I can appreciate. I did notice
that if I slight changes in the straight penalty I could also get different
results. I am curious if anyone trys to learn, or makes
a print out these specific hands. I would think one might just
apply one strategy such as that in VPSM and so much for saying
you try to play perfect strategy in NSUD.

Bob

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com <vpFREE%40yahoogroups.com>, bjaygold@...
wrote:
>
> There are literally hundreds of hands in NSUDs like the one you describe.

> They all contain a K-hi RF2, plus a straight penalty, plus a low flush
> penalty. I found one hand where the difference in EV was 1/10,000 of a
coin!
>
> VPSM is a good approximation. Software that lets you analyze any
> particular hand, like VPW, will always be correct if there is any
conflict with
> VPSM.
>
> In your example, changing the 3h to the 4h changes the perfect play to
the
> KQs. That's because the value of the redraw drops a bit, because of fewer

> possible SFs and straights.
>
> Brian
>
> =============================================
>
>
> In a message dated 4/27/2009 1:15:03 P.M. Pacific Daylight Time,
> futrend@... writes:
>
>
> I am curious about a minor discrepancy apparently discovered
> between two software tools for learning NSUD. The question
> arrives when one is dealt the King, Queen and 5 Spades,
> the 3 of Hearts and the 10 of Clubs.
>
> VPSM Advance Strategy Master states a value of .3273 for a
> King and Queen "suited" with 2 penalty cards. This value is
> just above a Redraw value of .3201.
>
> It seems like the only 2 penalty cards in the above hand are
> the 5 (a flush penalty) and the "10" (a straight penalty).
> If these are the only penalty cards, should not you hold the
> King and Queen of Spades as stated in the above values and/or
> hand rankings.
>
> Video Poker for Winners software claims the correct hold is
> a Redraw of all 5 cards and places its value at 1.6196 on
> a redraw and a value of 1.6167 on holding the suited King
> and Queen of Spades.
>
> This is obviously a minor penalty card situation, but I was
> wondering which software has it wrong, or am I missing something
> in assuming a conflict.
>
> Thanks,
> Bob
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> vpFREE Links: http://members.cox.net/vpfree/Links.htm
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
> **************Access 350+ FREE radio stations anytime from anywhere on
the
> web. Get the Radio Toolbar!
> (http://toolbar.aol.com/aolradio/download.html?ncid=emlcntusdown00000003
)
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]