vpFREE2 Forums

No winning at Wynn

In a message dated 10/6/2006 12:13:11 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
bellforddirect@yahoo.com writes:

Having worked in 2 casinos, the fact is slot machines are designed
to separate you from your money, not double it. And yes they get
tightened on weekends, and especially on holidays. As for offers,
they are pursuing the average middle of the line player. High
rollers will spend regardless, and the lower end drifts around like
tumbleweed. October and November are the in between months, and
everything gets adjused accordingly, including freebies. And with
two more properties closing very soon, the casinos know that they
don't have to do a lot.

I've worked at 3 casinos & if this isn't the biggest load of bovine excrement
I've ever read, nothing is.
CF

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

I worked in one of major strip casinos, which I will not name, and
it was in the department that dealt with player evaluation, comps and
promos and I can tell you 75 percent of the things assumed or said on
this board are BS. There is an abundance of poker knowledge here but
some of the things said about comps, promos and evals are ridiculous.

In a message dated 10/6/2006 12:13:11 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
bellforddirect@... writes:

> Having worked in 2 casinos, the fact is slot machines are

designed

> to separate you from your money, not double it. And yes they get
> tightened on weekends, and especially on holidays. As for offers,
> they are pursuing the average middle of the line player. High
> rollers will spend regardless, and the lower end drifts around

like

> tumbleweed. October and November are the in between months, and
> everything gets adjused accordingly, including freebies. And with
> two more properties closing very soon, the casinos know that they
> don't have to do a lot.
>

I've worked at 3 casinos & if this isn't the biggest load of bovine

excrement

···

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, Cardfather@... wrote:

I've ever read, nothing is.
CF

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

It's great that we have a member who worked in the player evaluation
area...can you give us the real scoop on comps, promos and evals? I
see you used the past tense "worked", so I'm hoping that you can
divulge some useful information without compromising your position or
employer.

Thanks in advance,

Don the Dentist

···

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "marvele66" <marvele66@...> wrote:

I worked in one of major strip casinos, which I will not name, and
it was in the department that dealt with player evaluation, comps
and promos and I can tell you 75 percent of the things assumed or
said on this board are BS. There is an abundance of poker knowledge
here but some of the things said about comps, promos and evals are
ridiculous.

If it doesn't violate any confidentiality clauses, would you correct
some of the misconceptions expressed here?

We all try to "divine" the casino logic, very unsuccessfully. Any scoop
from people who have worked in the casinos would be appreciated; I
think.

···

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "marvele66" <marvele66@...> wrote:

I worked in one of major strip casinos, which I will not name, and
it was in the department that dealt with player evaluation, comps and
promos and I can tell you 75 percent of the things assumed or said on
this board are BS.

Without violating some of the long paperwork Ive signed, I can give
some insight. Many people here are hung up on "coin in" as a means to
determine comps. This far from the truth on what hosts or any casino
personnel use to determine what you can and cannot have. Many casinos
work on theoraticals in which the formula is often some hidden secret
kept in a backoffice hidden in the basement. Ive evaluated guests that
had lost 20k in the machines and/or tables and show only a 4000 dollar
theo. This theo is often used to determine comps by taking 30-40
percent on slots or 40-50 percent on tables. Unless the customer was
brought in by a host or pushes the issue this number will be used for
comps. In this case the comp would be 1200-2000. Often times the theo
can be much less than this and only with approval can a percentage of
the loss be used for the comp basis. By the way, the theo is a number
that the casino uses to determine what they can expect you to lose on a
daily or trip basis. Theos are derived from time played, money bet and
trip length; there are a few other factors but it gets complicated.Ive
put 10k to 20k daily in a local casino only to have my theo show only
400-500 per day for the year. I was fortunate enough to see how this
computer system, in a large local casino chain, operated first hand. It
doesn not matter if you put in 50k coin in if your theo is only 1k.
They will base their comps on this number. Now it does differ for the
local player and the out of towner but this is on an individual basis
with most hosts. Stations is a great example of this, out of towners
are told they must have so much coin in to get rfb, but in reality it
is to force them to meet a certain theo which doesnt happen half the
time. Locals on the other hand work on theo; this number determines all
comps. Now the comps accumulate in a hidden comp account and must be
used every 3 months I believe or they dissappear. The max is 2k so if
you dont use your comps your play doesnt add any more to the comp
account. Keep in mind that hosts have discretion in these comps and can
override the numbers but not without answering to the head executive
host which meets with them every so often and asks them to explain what
they have given away. Yes, hosts, pit bosses and floorpeople are
accountable for every comp given. Ive seen someone get the shaft for
giving out a $10 comp to someone losing $500. Dumb but it happens. Ive
also been in situation in which I denied players with large play(10k
and up a hand.)Often time these big players just want it all and they
dont get it. They have a suite that runs 2k a night and now they are at
dinner and want several 5k bottles of wine. Its not an automatic comp
because of their big play. Theos are almost always the basis of comps.
    An interesting thing about the relationship between the casinos and
their hotels are the different rates. When you want a $300/night room
comped it doesnt cost the casino $300 to the hotel side(each side pays
for the others comps.)Each room type has a weekday and weekend rate
that the casino pays to the hotel for its comped guests. An example
would be the hotel charging the casino side $109 for a suite that would
run the average player $300. The $109 is the amount taken off your comp
balance not the $300. This is a big misconception to most people. This
comp balance is always hidden from the player thus never taken into
consideration. Most people think they are using the 300 and will never
know otherwise and it wouldnt really matter. When I speak of comp
balance Im refering to a hidden account used by hosts not the actual
balance you see on your card in the machine or players booth. I recieve
comps on a weekly basis without ever touching my actual points. Now
dont run off trying to get your hosts to show you these computer
systems or balances because they wont do it and will get in severe
trouble for doing it.
    Now about the card tracking system. Ive tracked many players and
was able to see everything they were doing. The tracking system in many
casinos shows time card was inserted, denomination of money inserted,
amount per spin or hand played, amount cashed out, actual coin in,
jackpot won(whether it was a w2 or not,) time played, whether or not
the player was pegged as a hot player(winning player,) cashout amount,
SKILL LEVEL or skill code of machine, Tracking of player in real time
on machine and many other factors. I was informed there were other
things the card showed but that was beyond my office.

Now I know some of these things are known to some of you but Ive read
many posts that were completely off. I hope that Ive helped some of the
players here and hopefully I can post more in the future. Fun part of
the job was dealing with guests that had 10 million dollar credit lines
and played no less than 100k a hand. By the way, when speaking with
guest on comp and evaluation issues, lying was the accepted way of
dealing with the situation. Never had a postion in which I had to lie
so often.

If it doesn't violate any confidentiality clauses, would you correct
some of the misconceptions expressed here?

We all try to "divine" the casino logic, very unsuccessfully. Any

scoop

from people who have worked in the casinos would be appreciated; I
think.

> I worked in one of major strip casinos, which I will not name, and
> it was in the department that dealt with player evaluation, comps

and

> promos and I can tell you 75 percent of the things assumed or said

on

···

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "Adams Myth" <Adams_Myth@...> wrote:

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "marvele66" <marvele66@> wrote:
> this board are BS.

I know many of you know this, but for those that dont, Many casinos
have many differnt card levels with each card designation itself. Some
local casinos have 3-4 levels within their top teir cards and a certain
large strip casino group has 14 levels of card holding status. An
example would be, lets say you are a player that holds a gold level
card at a casino. Within this gold card there is also a silver, gold
and platinum level. This is to differentiate between players that
barely made enough points to hold that card level and players that have
almost enough points to get to the next level. Again this is from first
hand experience not assumption. These extra levels complicate the free
play and offers recieved by players but also explain changes in your
offers even though your play has only differed slightly from month to
month or trip to trip.

If it doesn't violate any confidentiality clauses, would you correct
some of the misconceptions expressed here?

We all try to "divine" the casino logic, very unsuccessfully. Any

scoop

from people who have worked in the casinos would be appreciated; I
think.

> I worked in one of major strip casinos, which I will not name, and
> it was in the department that dealt with player evaluation, comps

and

> promos and I can tell you 75 percent of the things assumed or said

on

···

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "Adams Myth" <Adams_Myth@...> wrote:

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "marvele66" <marvele66@> wrote:
> this board are BS.

You have to excuse my grammatical and punction errors on my previous
posts. Im exhausted and can barely keep awake at the moment.

I know many of you know this, but for those that dont, Many casinos
have many differnt card levels with each card designation itself.

Some

local casinos have 3-4 levels within their top teir cards and a

certain

large strip casino group has 14 levels of card holding status. An
example would be, lets say you are a player that holds a gold level
card at a casino. Within this gold card there is also a silver,

gold

and platinum level. This is to differentiate between players that
barely made enough points to hold that card level and players that

have

almost enough points to get to the next level. Again this is from

first

hand experience not assumption. These extra levels complicate the

free

play and offers recieved by players but also explain changes in

your

offers even though your play has only differed slightly from month

to

month or trip to trip.

>
> If it doesn't violate any confidentiality clauses, would you

correct

> some of the misconceptions expressed here?
>
> We all try to "divine" the casino logic, very unsuccessfully. Any
scoop
> from people who have worked in the casinos would be appreciated;

I

> think.
>
> > I worked in one of major strip casinos, which I will not name,

and

> > it was in the department that dealt with player evaluation,

comps

and
> > promos and I can tell you 75 percent of the things assumed or

said

···

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "marvele66" <marvele66@...> wrote:

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "Adams Myth" <Adams_Myth@> wrote:
> --- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "marvele66" <marvele66@> wrote:
on
> > this board are BS.
>

I can tell you 75 percent of the things assumed or said on
this board are BS. There is an abundance of poker knowledge here but
some of the things said about comps, promos and evals are ridiculous.

Let me see if I understand this correctly. Of all the posts that you have
seen on vpFREE regarding casino comps, promos, and player evaluations, three
out of every four of those are dead wrong? Why do I think that you may be
using statistical stretch here? However, like may of the rest of us, I am
more than willing to get drenched by someone else's fountain of knowledge,
so could you please pick the top three misconceptions in each of your named
categories, comps, promos and evals, and state exactly what was wrongly
represented here by our members, and point us in the right direction.
Thanks in advance.
               Nudge

···

From: "marvele66" <marvele66@yahoo.com>
Subject: [vpFREE] Re: No winning at Wynn

<<> I can tell you 75 percent of the things assumed or said on

this board are BS. There is an abundance of poker knowledge here but
some of the things said about comps, promos and evals are ridiculous.>>

I am wondering how long you have been on this board to make a valid evaluation of the information here. A lot of posters have been on this and other VP boards for many many years. You have some very good information in your post, but none of it is new. We have been talking about theo for many years.

The whole subject of comps is very complicated and no two casinos, even in the same company, do things exactly the same way. It took me 19 years of experience and 4 long chapters to write about comps in "More Frugal Gambling." And all I could do was cover the basics. It takes lists like this to share information about particular casinos and their changing comp policies. There is never any "final" authority.

···

________________________________________
Jean $¢ott - "FRUGAL VIDEO POKER"
This new book (autographed) and other
   frugal products are now available at my
   new Web site, http://queenofcomps.com/.
   E-mail address is queenofcomps@cox.net.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

    Without violating some of the long paperwork Ive signed, I can

give

some insight. Many people here are hung up on "coin in" as a means to
determine comps. This far from the truth on what hosts or any casino
personnel use to determine what you can and cannot have. Many casinos
work on theoraticals in which the formula is often some hidden secret
kept in a backoffice hidden in the basement. [snip] <<

We use the term "coin in" when discussing comps because it is a
measurement that is generally available to us. Since theoretical loss
is generally not available and the formula to determine its value is
secret, what measurement do you suggest we use when passing on comp
information, comparing casinos, etc.?

Don

···

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "marvele66" <marvele66@...> wrote:

I never said theos were new but it isnt taken into consideration
often enough. I see many posts in which people are puzzled why their
comps are so minimal and their coin in was at a high level. By the
way, the MGM group of casinos do things very similar in their way of
comps. Obviously the hosts take care of things differntly but all
share the same players club software and see the exact same numbers.
Their percentages are very close if not the same at several
properties. My info is for those that didnt understand some of these
basics and working in this environment is very different from what,
you as a player, experience in a casino. My evaluation was an
exageration but it seems like too many people take easy offense to
something said on this board, hence why I dont post more often. Too
many people believe they are always right. Most of what I read about
comps is assumption, not absolute fact, on this board. There are many
things that are straight forward but much of the system is not.I wont
argue, especially with the so called "professionals," and people can
continue to beleive what they will. I think I will shut up now and
become a lurker again.

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "queenofcomps" <queenofcomps@...>
wrote:

<<> I can tell you 75 percent of the things assumed or said on
> this board are BS. There is an abundance of poker knowledge here

but

> some of the things said about comps, promos and evals are

ridiculous.>>

I am wondering how long you have been on this board to make a valid

evaluation of the information here. A lot of posters have been on
this and other VP boards for many many years. You have some very
good information in your post, but none of it is new. We have been
talking about theo for many years.

The whole subject of comps is very complicated and no two casinos,

even in the same company, do things exactly the same way. It took me
19 years of experience and 4 long chapters to write about comps
in "More Frugal Gambling." And all I could do was cover the basics.
It takes lists like this to share information about particular
casinos and their changing comp policies. There is never any "final"
authority.

···

________________________________________
Jean $¢ott - "FRUGAL VIDEO POKER"
This new book (autographed) and other
   frugal products are now available at my
   new Web site, http://queenofcomps.com/.
   E-mail address is queenofcomps@...

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Thanks for the info...
People that sell VP books and such always are in part self-serving
and thus have to take offense eaisly. I always consider what they
say with that in mind. The personal tag - to be sure an
advertisement is one of the slickest type of spam

I never said theos were new but it isnt taken into consideration
often enough. I see many posts in which people are puzzled why

their

comps are so minimal and their coin in was at a high level. By the
way, the MGM group of casinos do things very similar in their way

of

comps. Obviously the hosts take care of things differntly but all
share the same players club software and see the exact same

numbers.

Their percentages are very close if not the same at several
properties. My info is for those that didnt understand some of

these

basics and working in this environment is very different from

what,

you as a player, experience in a casino. My evaluation was an
exageration but it seems like too many people take easy offense to
something said on this board, hence why I dont post more often.

Too

many people believe they are always right. Most of what I read

about

comps is assumption, not absolute fact, on this board. There are

many

things that are straight forward but much of the system is not.I

wont

argue, especially with the so called "professionals," and people

can

···

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "marvele66" <marvele66@...> wrote:

continue to beleive what they will. I think I will shut up now and
become a lurker again.

<<My evaluation was an
exageration but it seems like too many people take easy offense to
something said on this board, hence why I dont post more often.>>

I was only referring to the fact that you said 75% of the stuff on this board about comps was BS. You posted some good information - but I think it would have been accepted better if you hadn't been insulting at the first. One can disagree politely without being negative.

We all need - and want - as much information as we can get about comps. But it is best not to paint in broad strokes, i.e., this is the way it always works. Not only do policies differ from casino to casino but there can be a VERY DIFFERENT interpretations by hosts at the very same casino. For example, I have some casinos where I have known the hosts for years and we are considered personal friends as well. I usually do not post about what comps I get at that casino because someone who comes in new, even if they play the same amount I do, probably will not get as many comps. Your long-term play history (at that casino and others where that host used to work) can be a very important factor as to what comps you get. Remember, there is always a RANGE within comp levels and there can be a big difference between the highest and the lowest limits of that range. And the more senior your host (or one that is good friends with the boss!) the more likely you might be able to be bumped up a level or so above your actual playing level - some hosts have more "stretch room" than others.

So we all need to post as much information as we can about comps at a particular casino - particularly if we find out some inside information about the various levels in hidden comp accounts. This gives us a good general guide to where we can start out. But we all need to remember YMMV - your mileage may vary.

···

________________________________________
Jean $¢ott - "FRUGAL VIDEO POKER"
This new book (autographed) and other
   frugal products are now available at my
   new Web site, http://queenofcomps.com/.
   E-mail address is queenofcomps@cox.net.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

LOL....oh absolutely. But some of us would prefer to keep it that way.

I have been sorely tempted to write about theo and how it impacts the
VP business. Actually, I have written one article about that, but that
part of the article was a subtext. The problem is some of my peers
would stop speaking to me if I discussed theo with amateur players.
The other problem, is why wise up some of my peers as well? I do
compete with them after all. They're all high denom professionals, but
we all have blind spots in evaluating plays. I'd also like to tell you
who is really sharp about VP and who is really dumb, but why wise
anyone up? It's just takes money out of my pocket at the end of the day.

I read your other post, it's good, but IMHO a little too good for this
group. Not that the group doesn't deserve quality writing, I'm worried
about how those guys who lurk around here might adjust their strategy
based on your advice. This forum, for better or worse, has the
tendency to lower my EV. As it is I have moles working in marketing
positions at both major casino chains, and my hosts love my action
(wonder why? ummm...don't answer that!). So, let's not get too
analytical, ok? You are far from alone out here.

···

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "marvele66" <marvele66@...> wrote:

I know many of you know this, but for those that dont, Many casinos
have many differnt card levels with each card designation itself. Some
local casinos have 3-4 levels within their top teir cards and a certain
large strip casino group has 14 levels of card holding status. An
example would be, lets say you are a player that holds a gold level
card at a casino. Within this gold card there is also a silver, gold
and platinum level. This is to differentiate between players that
barely made enough points to hold that card level and players that have
almost enough points to get to the next level. Again this is from first
hand experience not assumption. These extra levels complicate the free
play and offers recieved by players but also explain changes in your
offers even though your play has only differed slightly from month to
month or trip to trip.

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "Adams Myth" <Adams_Myth@> wrote:
>
> If it doesn't violate any confidentiality clauses, would you correct
> some of the misconceptions expressed here?
>
> We all try to "divine" the casino logic, very unsuccessfully. Any
scoop
> from people who have worked in the casinos would be appreciated; I
> think.
>
> --- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "marvele66" <marvele66@> wrote:
> > I worked in one of major strip casinos, which I will not name, and
> > it was in the department that dealt with player evaluation, comps
and
> > promos and I can tell you 75 percent of the things assumed or said
on
> > this board are BS.

<<My evaluation was an
exageration but it seems like too many people take easy offense to
something said on this board, hence why I dont post more often.>>

I was only referring to the fact that you said 75% of the stuff on

this board about comps was BS. You posted some good information - but
I think it would have been accepted better if you hadn't been
insulting at the first. One can disagree politely without being negative.

We all need - and want - as much information as we can get about

comps. But it is best not to paint in broad strokes, i.e., this is
the way it always works. Not only do policies differ from casino to
casino but there can be a VERY DIFFERENT interpretations by hosts at
the very same casino. For example, I have some casinos where I have
known the hosts for years and we are considered personal friends as
well. I usually do not post about what comps I get at that casino
because someone who comes in new, even if they play the same amount I
do, probably will not get as many comps. Your long-term play history
(at that casino and others where that host used to work) can be a very
important factor as to what comps you get. Remember, there is always
a RANGE within comp levels and there can be a big difference between
the highest and the lowest limits of that range. And the more senior
your host (or one that is good friends with the boss!) the more likely
you might be able to be bumped up a level or so above your actual
playing level - some hosts have more "stretch room" than others.

So we all need to post as much information as we can about comps at

a particular casino - particularly if we find out some inside
information about the various levels in hidden comp accounts. This
gives us a good general guide to where we can start out. But we all
need to remember YMMV - your mileage may vary.

Jean, dearest, you really aren't thinking this through. And I didn't
take offense about the 75% quote, he was right as rain about that.
Actually, may be higher :).

···

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "queenofcomps" <queenofcomps@...> wrote:

_______________________________________________________________________

paladingaming.net

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "paladingamingllc"
<paladingamingllc@...> wrote:

LOL....oh absolutely. But some of us would prefer to keep it that

way.

I have been sorely tempted to write about theo and how it impacts

the

VP business. Actually, I have written one article about that, but

that

part of the article was a subtext. The problem is some of my peers
would stop speaking to me if I discussed theo with amateur players.
The other problem, is why wise up some of my peers as well? I do
compete with them after all. They're all high denom professionals,

but

we all have blind spots in evaluating plays. I'd also like to tell

you

who is really sharp about VP and who is really dumb, but why wise
anyone up? It's just takes money out of my pocket at the end of the

day.

I read your other post, it's good, but IMHO a little too good for

this

group. Not that the group doesn't deserve quality writing, I'm

worried

about how those guys who lurk around here might adjust their

strategy

based on your advice. This forum, for better or worse, has the
tendency to lower my EV. As it is I have moles working in marketing
positions at both major casino chains, and my hosts love my action
(wonder why? ummm...don't answer that!). So, let's not get too
analytical, ok? You are far from alone out here.

Not to be insulting (but meaning to make a strong point), I don't
know what to make of this stuff anymore. Here we
are in what basically should be considered a responsible, reasonably
knowledgable consumer group. And then there's all this coded talk,
snickering and chortling, shucking and jiving, high-fiving on the low-
low, and off-the-cuff and not so off-the-cuff "hints" that anyone who
is not a pro and in the know is wasting time here. It makes me feel
a little like I've been taken for a ride, that there is in fact no
way I'm ever going to be able to achieve even parity (nor less a
small profit) with the casino unless I'm:

a) A VP author who is able to work hosts/comps to the bone so s/he
can write about how great Casino X is;

b) Someone who has "moles" in casino marketing so as to find out the
exact mechanisms and hidden plays made up just for them;

c) A "pro," the status of which seems to be based as much or more on
who you know rather than what you know, such that you are a member of
a secret society entered into only by blood oath and memorizing the
handshake, and most of us are distictly UNinvited.

I study, I practice, I try to keep abreast of what is going on
through this chat board and some published stuff. I do as much as I
can of what the Great Books tell me, and yet maybe it is all a hoax
to keep the pros in business and I'm just a rube who bought into a an
elaborate con.

Look, I understand that no matter how good of a shopper you are, it's
always better to have an uncle in the business. I wonder what the VP
rites of passage really are. I read a lot of this shtick from
Paladin here or Mickey Crimm, Denver Louie, Pensacola Pappy, Yosemite
Sam, and on and on. Not them and certainly not the books ever say
HOW an average person can gain club membership. It's no wonder Rob
Singer has an audience.

Mike , you make a lot of good sense. I take all this blah, blah, blah in stride, knowing there are plenty of Trolls on this board, and the same people posting under different names. My interest in VpFree is mainly in finding out where the best machines are - and that's a rare post these days, since people fear that posting full pay means "goodbye" play.

good luck...tom

···

----- Original Message ----- From: "dddddmike"

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "paladingamingllc"
<paladingamingllc@...> wrote:

LOL....oh absolutely. But some of us would prefer to keep it that

way.

I have been sorely tempted to write about theo and how it impacts

the

VP business. Actually, I have written one article about that, but

that

part of the article was a subtext. The problem is some of my peers
would stop speaking to me if I discussed theo with amateur players.
The other problem, is why wise up some of my peers as well? I do
compete with them after all. They're all high denom professionals,

but

we all have blind spots in evaluating plays. I'd also like to tell

you

who is really sharp about VP and who is really dumb, but why wise
anyone up? It's just takes money out of my pocket at the end of the

day.

I read your other post, it's good, but IMHO a little too good for

this

group. Not that the group doesn't deserve quality writing, I'm

worried

about how those guys who lurk around here might adjust their

strategy

based on your advice. This forum, for better or worse, has the
tendency to lower my EV. As it is I have moles working in marketing
positions at both major casino chains, and my hosts love my action
(wonder why? ummm...don't answer that!). So, let's not get too
analytical, ok? You are far from alone out here.

Not to be insulting (but meaning to make a strong point), I don't
know what to make of this stuff anymore. Here we
are in what basically should be considered a responsible, reasonably
knowledgable consumer group. And then there's all this coded talk,
snickering and chortling, shucking and jiving, high-fiving on the low-
low, and off-the-cuff and not so off-the-cuff "hints" that anyone who
is not a pro and in the know is wasting time here. It makes me feel
a little like I've been taken for a ride, that there is in fact no
way I'm ever going to be able to achieve even parity (nor less a
small profit) with the casino unless I'm:

a) A VP author who is able to work hosts/comps to the bone so s/he
can write about how great Casino X is;

b) Someone who has "moles" in casino marketing so as to find out the
exact mechanisms and hidden plays made up just for them;

c) A "pro," the status of which seems to be based as much or more on
who you know rather than what you know, such that you are a member of
a secret society entered into only by blood oath and memorizing the
handshake, and most of us are distictly UNinvited.

I study, I practice, I try to keep abreast of what is going on
through this chat board and some published stuff. I do as much as I
can of what the Great Books tell me, and yet maybe it is all a hoax
to keep the pros in business and I'm just a rube who bought into a an
elaborate con.

Look, I understand that no matter how good of a shopper you are, it's
always better to have an uncle in the business. I wonder what the VP
rites of passage really are. I read a lot of this shtick from
Paladin here or Mickey Crimm, Denver Louie, Pensacola Pappy, Yosemite
Sam, and on and on. Not them and certainly not the books ever say
HOW an average person can gain club membership. It's no wonder Rob
Singer has an audience.

<<Not them and certainly not the books ever say
HOW an average person can gain club membership>>

I give a lot of "inside" basic information in my books. Once you know the basics of how the comp system works, then it is up to the individual to use that to get more information on specific casinos. And reading this list will give you more enlightenment.

Actually the "average" VP player on the quarter level and even perhaps even higher will do well if he learns the first two ways to get comps, by using the slot club system and mail offers from marketing. The big majority of players never worry about dealing with hosts and knowing about theo and the other complex things. For many years, this is what we did.

As you go up in denomination AND gain more experience, you will learn little by little how to get more out of the host system. Most of the "pros" or experienced VP player here spent many years honing their skills. I wrote three books to help people majorly shorten the learning curve - but there are many things you can't learn except by experience.

I feel many people want to "learn it all" too quickly. And when they don't, they are discouraged, and I feel bad about that. That's why I keep writing books - so people will have a good understanding of the basics and then they will be able to use the information on forums like this to build their skills.

···

________________________________________
Jean $¢ott - "FRUGAL VIDEO POKER"
This new book (autographed) and other
   frugal products are now available at my
   new Web site, http://queenofcomps.com/.
   E-mail address is queenofcomps@cox.net.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Mike , you make a lot of good sense. I take all this blah, blah,

blah in

stride, knowing there are plenty of Trolls on this board, and the same
people posting under different names. My interest in VpFree is

mainly in

finding out where the best machines are - and that's a rare post

these days,

since people fear that posting full pay means "goodbye" play.

Tom, perhaps some remedial reading is on order:
http://paladingaming.net/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=36&Itemid=1

In this day and age, posting FP will kill the play, particularly if
it's a good play in Vegas. You see, it's not like 10 years ago,
everyone knows how to play now. I posted a marginal quarter play and
it got taken down within 48 hours (and I thought no one at Stations
reads me..LOL). In the article I discuss theo and how to use it when
calculating EV. This is something which is really valuable, and really
too valuable for me to publish, but I did it anyway. So, when I see
something really valuable, and it's discussed here, and we're talking
pver $10K/year in EV to me, you can understand why I cringe.

I guess since I've never published any books, I must be a total
claimer at this and everything I write here is speculation. Actually,
Tom, in our business, the people with the merit badges are the ones
who don't publish. Generally, what separates the successful from the
non-successful is the ability to Get It. Either you do, or you don't.
Please don't take it out on me because you don't.

You posted something a couple of weeks ago about suspected
non-randomness of VP machines in AC. Frankly, it was too ridiculous to
even comment on, particularly when you realize the toughest gaming
license to get anywhere is a NJ one, particularly for a slot machine
manufacturer. The machines are on the square, and without going into
details, substantially more money was won playing AC than Vegas by the
top pros. This much is clear.

(whine)

> is not a pro and in the know is wasting time here. It makes me feel
> a little like I've been taken for a ride, that there is in fact no
> way I'm ever going to be able to achieve even parity (nor less a
> small profit) with the casino unless I'm:
>
> a) A VP author who is able to work hosts/comps to the bone so s/he
> can write about how great Casino X is;
>
> b) Someone who has "moles" in casino marketing so as to find out the
> exact mechanisms and hidden plays made up just for them;
>
> c) A "pro," the status of which seems to be based as much or more on
> who you know rather than what you know, such that you are a member of
> a secret society entered into only by blood oath and memorizing the
> handshake, and most of us are distictly UNinvited.
>
> I study, I practice, I try to keep abreast of what is going on
> through this chat board and some published stuff. I do as much as I
> can of what the Great Books tell me, and yet maybe it is all a hoax
> to keep the pros in business and I'm just a rube who bought into a an
> elaborate con.

You, sir, obviously don't get it. See, your tone is totally insulting
and dismissive, but that's ok. I have over twenty years experience in
advantage play, and unlike a lot of APs, I can actually function in
the straight world as well. By comparison, I would never tell you how
to do your day job. I share insight with you why certain things are
good ideas and certain ones aren't, and if you don't like the tone,
well, sorry. Next time some newbie burns down your 5% play because
they told the management they thought something was a mistake, and
they don't even play the game, get back to me.

It's not a question of invitation or inclusion. AP has never been a
team sport, it's one of turf, and always will be that way, especially
in Vegas, where the credo is: burn it down before someone else does.
You do your job professionally, things generally take care of
themselves. Just like in the real world.

You guys always want something for nothing, whine when your bottle is
taken away from you prematurely, and it grates on me. Why not do what
I do, and instead of being wheeled around and being spoon fed, learn
at least to crawl. I worked out most of what I know about AP on my own
without any mentors, and with a lot of trial and error (mostly error,
but in my experience to be able to succeed you must learn to fail
first). Successful, professional VP is a lot more than learning to
play FPDW and 9-6 Jacks. What's really insulting right now is that
there are a number of good plays (as I repeat myself yet again)
revolving around 9-6 Jacks. Instead of debating me, go find out where
they are, and how to maximize your edge-several of them have been
published here.

When you get to the $5 level, then working the system becomes
important. But not really before then-I'm sure Jean's books are
helpful gap fillers until you reach that point. In the meantime, try
developing some smarts and working stuff out on your own. Or be a
pleasure player-there's certainly no harm in that.

I play five to seven games lights out, including two of the most
difficult ones out there. I also play four or five more at 99.99% of
perfect. When I am working, from waking to sleeping I'm either
playing, researching, or practicing. Do you have this much devotion to
your job?

Bob Dancer advises those to walk the Strip. Not only have I walked the
Strip, I've done two laps across the USA looking for stuff. Bob
actually beat me to a great play in MS a couple of years ago by a few
days (and he has the sweatshirt to prove it! rofl...)

Finally, I've never had to bribe a tech to, say put in a big denom
FPJW, or juice a slot host. A couple of my hosts are patently
coin-operated, but that just makes them easier to deal with-you always
know where you stand with them. If you're playing quarters you don't
have these issues.

···

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "tomflush" <tomflush@...> wrote:

_______________________________________________________________________

paladingaming.net

Paladin has made it pretty clear that providing useful information
isn't on his agenda. In fact the main theme of all of his posts is
that he thinks it's a terrible thing to wise up the marks. I'm willing
to take his word for at least that much, which has saved me a good
five minutes that I haven't spent reading his posts or looking up his
web site.

Mike

···

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "dddddmike" <ddddmike@...> wrote:

rites of passage really are. I read a lot of this shtick from
Paladin here or Mickey Crimm, Denver Louie, Pensacola Pappy, Yosemite
Sam, and on and on. Not them and certainly not the books ever say
HOW an average person can gain club membership. It's no wonder Rob
Singer has an audience.