Casino Player says in New Jersey video poker machines are treated like
slots as compared to Nevada (and other jurisdictions) where there are
different regulations for video poker.
It says the protection for playing in New Jersey is that the video
poker machines are made in Nevada and machines made in Nevada must
adhere to Nevada regulations which require a random draw.
With IGT making Class II video poker machines, should this be an area
of concern perhaps in the future?
Kelso said: Casino Player says in New Jersey video poker machines are
treated like
slots as compared to Nevada (and other jurisdictions) where there are
different regulations for video poker.
This is an erroneous premise floated years ago by Frank Scoblete in his
"Victory at Video Poker" and it keeps coming up from time to time as
people quote him.
Video poker in New Jersey is fair. The machines are very much the same
as they are in Nevada.
As a columnist in Casino Player I wish I could tell you that the
magazine carefully checks everything it publishes. Sometimes it does and
sometimes it doesn't. I have tried to get them to pass video poker
information by me before it is published, and it doesn't always happen.
You can trust items written by individual columnists as being
representative of what that columnist believes. But taking the attitude
that everything in the magazine deserves the same degree of respect
isn't warranted.
Bob Dancer
For the best in video poker information, visit www.bobdancer.com
or call 1-800-244-2224 M-F 9-5 Pacific Time.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Thanks for the clarification.
Kelso said: Casino Player says in New Jersey video poker machines
are
treated like
slots as compared to Nevada (and other jurisdictions) where there
are
different regulations for video poker.
This is an erroneous premise floated years ago by Frank Scoblete
in his
"Victory at Video Poker" and it keeps coming up from time to time
as
people quote him.
Video poker in New Jersey is fair. The machines are very much the
same
as they are in Nevada.
As a columnist in Casino Player I wish I could tell you that the
magazine carefully checks everything it publishes. Sometimes it
does and
sometimes it doesn't. I have tried to get them to pass video poker
information by me before it is published, and it doesn't always
happen.
You can trust items written by individual columnists as being
representative of what that columnist believes. But taking the
attitude
--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "Bob Dancer" <bob.dancer@...> wrote:
that everything in the magazine deserves the same degree of respect
isn't warranted.Bob Dancer
For the best in video poker information, visit www.bobdancer.com
or call 1-800-244-2224 M-F 9-5 Pacific Time.[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
<<Kelso said: Casino Player says in New Jersey video poker machines are
treated like
slots as compared to Nevada (and other jurisdictions) where there are
different regulations for video poker.>>
I believe that video poker is not specifically singled out in AC regulations, as it is in NV's. That means that it is "lumped in" with slots and therefore they COULD legally have a VP machine that is not random like the ones in NV have to be. However, because they get their VP machines from NV manufacturers, the machines are random according to NV regulations - because NV manufactures are regulated by NV regulations. (I am assuming that all VP machines in AC are manufactured by NV companies, right?)
However, this whole concept is in a state of flux because of Indian casinos and Class II machines. IGT isn't talking too much about this, but they have an "auxiliary" company (I forget the name of it - starts with "S," I think) that is manufacturing Class II VP machines that look very much like the NV Class III ones - but they are not random, but based on bingo or pull-tabs or lottery-type results. I don't know if they have received "official" permission from NV regulators to manufacture these - or if NV changed the rules for Class II machines - or what???
In any case, I can no longer say, as I used to for years, that if you see a VP machine from a NV company, you can be sure it is random like in NV. (I usually qualified this by adding "in a regulated jurisdiction" because in foreign countries and on cruise ships, there was always the possibility that chips were changed after they left the NV manufacturer.)
________________________________________
Jean $�ott - http://www.FrugalGambler.biz
Tax time is coming up - groan! "Tax Help
for the Frugal Gambler" can answer many
of your questions!
Jean,
It's actually a little different.
First, IGT now manufactures Class II machines
under its own name and no longer licenses.
However, as of last fall none of IGT's Class II
machines that had video poker contained a draw.
If there were some coming, I'm sure I would have
been told. Also, in most (not all) Class II
jurisdictions the bingo game is displayed on the machine itself.
Second, Nevada has no regulation that singles out
video poker. The regulation that applies says
that all machine games that simulate live games
must be dealt the same as a human dealer would
(paraphrased, but that is the gist). By
implication, video poker must be dealt from a
deck of cards with each card having an equal chance of showing.
Third, I was informed by New Jersey regulators
that they enforce machine dealt games exactly the
same as in Nevada. There is no wiggle room, as Bob states and I can confirm.
Finally, the shipment of games out of state does
not seem to be quite as we have always stated it.
According to Nevada Regulation 14, a manufacturer
may distribute machines that are not approved in
Nevada out of state as long as they will be used
in a lawful manner (as that jurisdiction defines
it), they meet other criteria (such as having a
serial number) and the chairman of the gaming
commission approves. This permits, among other
things, a manufacturer to sell a slot in NJ or
Miss before it is approved in NV, or even if it
never is (South Park, for example). It also
permits IGT to sell VLT Game Kings in Washington
and NY that would be clearly illegal in NV. But
it also means that there is not (and never has
been) a requirement that machines sold outside NV
conform to NV regs unless that machine is approved for distribution in-state.
On the plus side every domestic casino with
Nevada-style gaming is closely regulated. It is
an error to think that Indian casinos are
strictly self-regulated. In fact, the Federal
Government and some states closely regulate
activity on the Reservations as a condition for authorizing Class III gaming.
Hope this helps everyone.
B
At 01:11 PM 2/6/2006, you wrote:
<<Kelso said: Casino Player says in New Jersey video poker machines are
treated like
slots as compared to Nevada (and other jurisdictions) where there are
different regulations for video poker.>>I believe that video poker is not specifically singled out in AC
regulations, as it is in NV's. That means that it is "lumped in" with
slots and therefore they COULD legally have a VP machine that is not random
like the ones in NV have to be. However, because they get their VP machines
from NV manufacturers, the machines are random according to NV regulations -
because NV manufactures are regulated by NV regulations. (I am assuming
that all VP machines in AC are manufactured by NV companies, right?)However, this whole concept is in a state of flux because of Indian casinos
and Class II machines. IGT isn't talking too much about this, but they have
an "auxiliary" company (I forget the name of it - starts with "S," I think)
that is manufacturing Class II VP machines that look very much like the NV
Class III ones - but they are not random, but based on bingo or pull-tabs or
lottery-type results. I don't know if they have received "official"
permission from NV regulators to manufacture these - or if NV changed the
rules for Class II machines - or what???In any case, I can no longer say, as I used to for years, that if you see a
VP machine from a NV company, you can be sure it is random like in NV. (I
usually qualified this by adding "in a regulated jurisdiction" because in
foreign countries and on cruise ships, there was always the possibility that
chips were changed after they left the NV manufacturer.)________________________________________
Jean $¢ott - http://www.FrugalGambler.biz
Tax time is coming up - groan! "Tax Help
for the Frugal Gambler" can answer many
of your questions!vpFREE Links: http://members.cox.net/vpfree/Links.htm
Yahoo! Groups Links
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
I will defer to Bill Coleman's explanations. But it is certainly a subject that is complex and constantly changing.
________________________________________
Jean $�ott - http://www.FrugalGambler.biz
Tax time is coming up - groan! "Tax Help
for the Frugal Gambler" can answer many
of your questions!
Bill Coleman wrote:
On the plus side every domestic casino with Nevada-style gaming is closely regulated. It is an error to think that Indian casinos are strictly self-regulated. In fact, the Federal Government and some states closely regulate activity on the Reservations as a condition for authorizing Class III gaming.
How would anyone know anything about any of that if 1) there are independently audited financial reports or 2) there are not independently audited financial reports that are made public?
Federal regulators audit and supervise gaming at all Indian casinos.
Privately held casinos do not make their audited financial statements public.
At 05:22 PM 2/11/2006, you wrote:
Bill Coleman wrote:
>
>On the plus side every domestic casino with
>Nevada-style gaming is closely regulated. It is
>an error to think that Indian casinos are
>strictly self-regulated. In fact, the Federal
>Government and some states closely regulate
>activity on the Reservations as a condition for authorizing Class
III gaming.
>
>How would anyone know anything about any of that if 1) there are
independently audited financial reports or 2) there are not
independently audited financial reports that are made public?
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
<<Federal regulators audit and supervise gaming at all Indian casinos>>
I'd like more details about this. I have read that this isn't nearly as strict as it should/could be. Certainly not as strict as NV regulation, for example. It is more like a general "look-over" and the tribes (sometimes a very small powerful council) rule the roost like a private kingdom.
Personally I don't feel comfortable gambling in most Indian casinos. If there is a problem, players seem to have a hard (or impossible) time getting it fixed.
I have had personal experience in some Indian casinos where the tribes and the non-Indian management company are constantly feuding. That makes for a very "iffy" arrangement - and neither the federal or the state government seem to want to interfere or seem not to have the power to do so. The federal government has chosen to let each state make its own compacts and this has lead to much abuse in this area,including very small tribes (sometimes just 1-12 individuals) turning over their power to outside management companies. The federal and state "regulations" are so vague that it spawns abuse by unethical business companies.
It's a mess!!!!!!!
________________________________________
Jean $�ott - http://www.FrugalGambler.biz
Tax time is coming up - groan! "Tax Help
for the Frugal Gambler" can answer many
of your questions!
Jean,
At the risk of starting a furor I think your
perceptions could be correct. This is likely due
to having a Federal administration with
regulators filled with people who believe nothing
should be regulated. At least on paper the
National Indian Gaming Commission looks as tough
as regulators in some of riverboat states. I've
spoken with individuals from academia, the
industry and the Indian Gaming Association and
have not heard significant criticism of the
regulatory process, only isolated anecdotal
incidents. Also, the 3 members of the Commission
don't look like anti-regulation nuts. The
Chairman is a former US Attorney, one member is a
former FBI agent and the third was the first head
of the Michigan Gaming Commission.
But I have personally visited only one or two and
those were in California. I certainly defer to
your experience with one exception. Federal law
controls the extent of the compacts and the
Commission oversees the day to day operation of
tribal casinos. There are paperwork requirements,
employee licensing, approval and oversight of
management companies. The Commission also employs
auditors who conduct field audits of Indian
casinos. So the Federal Government certainly has
the authority and some states (such as
Washington) have granted themselves regulatory
oversight as a condition of signing compacts.
(Does anyone know if the new Florida law requires
Bush to include state regulation when he negotates compacts?)
I will, however, contend that regulations are
enforced enough to prevent gaffed machines with
very occasional rogue operators trying something
just like in Nevada. Again, the economics argue
against it. (Not to mention the bad paytables
normally found in these places.) After all, when
a casino like Cache Creek can have customers
lined up waiting to play a 6/5 JOB machine, why take chances?
Personally, I would do some research before
playing in my local Indian Casino. Regulations,
regulatory bodies and all public information should be easily obtainable.
Like I said in the beginning
B
At 11:55 AM 2/12/2006, you wrote:
<<Federal regulators audit and supervise gaming at all Indian casinos>>
I'd like more details about this. I have read that this isn't nearly as
strict as it should/could be. Certainly not as strict as NV regulation, for
example. It is more like a general "look-over" and the tribes (sometimes a
very small powerful council) rule the roost like a private kingdom.Personally I don't feel comfortable gambling in most Indian casinos. If
there is a problem, players seem to have a hard (or impossible) time getting
it fixed.I have had personal experience in some Indian casinos where the tribes and
the non-Indian management company are constantly feuding. That makes for a
very "iffy" arrangement - and neither the federal or the state government
seem to want to interfere or seem not to have the power to do so. The
federal government has chosen to let each state make its own compacts and
this has lead to much abuse in this area,including very small tribes
(sometimes just 1-12 individuals) turning over their power to outside
management companies. The federal and state "regulations" are so vague that
it spawns abuse by unethical business companies.It's a mess!!!!!!!
________________________________________
Jean $¢ott - http://www.FrugalGambler.biz
Tax time is coming up - groan! "Tax Help
for the Frugal Gambler" can answer many
of your questions!vpFREE Links: http://members.cox.net/vpfree/Links.htm
Yahoo! Groups Links
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Bill Coleman wrote:
Jean,
At the risk of starting a furor I think your perceptions could be correct. This is likely due to having a Federal administration with regulators filled with people who believe nothing should be regulated. At least on paper the National Indian Gaming Commission looks as tough as regulators in some of riverboat states. I've spoken with individuals from academia, the industry and the Indian Gaming Association and have not heard significant criticism of the regulatory process, only isolated anecdotal incidents. Also, the 3 members of the Commission don't look like anti-regulation nuts. The Chairman is a former US Attorney, one member is a former FBI agent and the third was the first head of the Michigan Gaming Commission.
But I have personally visited only one or two and those were in California. I certainly defer to your experience with one exception. Federal law controls the extent of the compacts and the Commission oversees the day to day operation of tribal casinos. There are paperwork requirements, employee licensing, approval and oversight of management companies. The Commission also employs auditors who conduct field audits of Indian casinos. So the Federal Government certainly has the authority and some states (such as Washington) have granted themselves regulatory oversight as a condition of signing compacts. (Does anyone know if the new Florida law requires Bush to include state regulation when he negotates compacts?)
I will, however, contend that regulations are enforced enough to prevent gaffed machines with very occasional rogue operators trying something just like in Nevada.
There is absolutely no indpendently verifiable basis whatsoever for any of these assertions. There haven't been for years.
If you believe this then you should not play in any casino, anywhere.
If regulators do not do their jobs in one instance they may not in any.
If you have any evidence of your assertion, please document it. If
not, please do not present opinion as fact.
At 06:44 AM 2/13/2006, you wrote:
>I will, however, contend that regulations are
>enforced enough to prevent gaffed machines with
>very occasional rogue operators trying something
>just like in Nevada.
>
>There is absolutely no indpendently verifiable basis whatsoever for any
of these assertions. There haven't been for years.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
If you believe this then you should not play in any casino,
anywhere.
If regulators do not do their jobs in one instance they may not in
any.
If you have any evidence of your assertion, please document it. If
not, please do not present opinion as fact.> >I will, however, contend that regulations are
> >enforced enough to prevent gaffed machines with
> >very occasional rogue operators trying something
> >just like in Nevada.
> >
> >
>
>There is absolutely no indpendently verifiable basis whatsoever
for any
>of these assertions. There haven't been for years.
There is probably just as much reason to trust Washington Indian
casinos as Nevada casinos ... maybe more so. That's because the
Washington casinos use linked machines controlled by a central
server. There's no need to check the return percentage of every
machine. Instead, all that's needed is to check the server reports.
Also, in Washington (until recently), you cannot feed money into a
machine. You must feed it into a device which prints a TITO chit,
which can only be cashed by a cashier who uses a wand to validate the
chit. In other words, no money is floating around to permit
skimming. Monies taken out of these devices must balance to the
server reports. Every dollar in/out is recorded by the central
computer.
The "loophole" is this system is that state auditors may be paid to
ignore or revise the reports. That seems unlikely since it would
require colusion by groups of auditors and software programmers.
Of course, this is just my opinion. But I've seen how this system
works, and as a former financial systems programmer it's easy to see
how it can be used to monitor casino finances.
The exception is the Spokane tribe, which has no compact with the
state. There do not appear to be any controls in their casinos. But
they have real VP, with good pay schedules. It's possible they
are gaffed in some fashion, but I doubt it.
--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, Bill Coleman <vphobby2@...> wrote:
At 06:44 AM 2/13/2006, you wrote:
If you believe this then you should not play in any casino,
anywhere.
If regulators do not do their jobs in one instance they may not in
any.
If you have any evidence of your assertion, please document it. If
not, please do not present opinion as fact.> >I will, however, contend that regulations are
> >enforced enough to prevent gaffed machines with
> >very occasional rogue operators trying something
> >just like in Nevada.
> >
> >
>
>There is absolutely no indpendently verifiable basis whatsoever
for any
>of these assertions. There haven't been for years.
Yes, I would like to see data on that also.
--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, Bill Coleman <vphobby2@...> wrote:
At 06:44 AM 2/13/2006, you wrote: