vpFREE2 Forums

New Progressive Video Poker information available

#1

This is my first post on vpFREE. I just joined the group and will be adding high progressive warnings periodically. If you are unfamiliar with me, I managed the largest Progressive Slot Team here in Las Vegas back in the 90's and have played independently since then. Dan Paymar was my editor for the new book, which just came out. If you have read the chapter on progressives in Jean Scott's Frugal Video Poker you should have at least heard of me, as I was a major contributor. I have been so busy writing my book, I've been almost completely inactive for about 5 years. No more...Frank is back.

If anyone has any questions on progressive VP please feel free to ask me. Figuring out the return and strategy for progressives is so different from regular VP it might as well be a different game.

I would like some feedback as to what progressive VP strategies would be most useful, as I will be adding them to my website soon.

Good Luck and may the free food be with you!

"Some say, the secret to financial success is thinking 'outside the
box.' I say, thinking inside the box is fine, as long as you sell the
box after you're done."
   
~Frank Kneeland, former manager of the largest Vegas slot team and
Author of The Secret World of Video Poker Progressives--A History and
How-To of Video Poker Slot Teams in Las Vegas. www.progressivevp.com

#2

Thanks for being back Frank

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

#3

I'll be looking forward to any relevant posts. I've asked a few questions about progressive VP here and have gotten some great information.

Kurt

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--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "Frank" <frank@...> wrote:

If anyone has any questions on progressive VP please feel free to ask >me. Figuring out the return and strategy for progressives is so >different from regular VP it might as well be a different game.

#4

I was tired of being front.

Actually halfway through writing the book I was told I had cancer by two separate doctors, and abandoned the project. I only just found out a year ago that I no longer have the big C and I'm fine.

It's been a wonderful year.

FK

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--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "John J. Canney" <jcanney@...> wrote:

Thanks for being back Frank

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

#5

If you had to pick one game for which you would like to see a progressive Strategy, what would it be???

FK

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--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "kingofkurtopia" <kingofkurtopia@...> wrote:

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "Frank" <frank@> wrote:

> If anyone has any questions on progressive VP please feel free to ask >me. Figuring out the return and strategy for progressives is so >different from regular VP it might as well be a different game.

I'll be looking forward to any relevant posts. I've asked a few questions about progressive VP here and have gotten some great information.

Kurt

#6

With all due respect, is this something we all really want to see added to VPFree? Sure, if I were the only one reading it it would be great. But as a group we are already suffering from too much information plastered all over cyberspace.

And this is an honest question on my part so feel free to jump on my case everyone but I am wondering if this could hurt what opportunity is still out there. I mean, if we have regular alerts as to great progressive opportunities, is it possible the casino suits might send them to the same graveyard where they buried all the FPDW machines? Or that too many players knowing about them might burn them out somehow?

I bought your book, Frank, and appreciate what you accomplished in this field, and appreciate your talent. I think mine is a legitimate question, though.

best regards,
Bob Bartop

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--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "Frank" <frank@...> wrote:

This is my first post on vpFREE. I just joined the group and will be
adding high progressive warnings periodically.

#7

Well never let it be said that I don't listen to my clients. You are now the third person to contact me today with the sentiment that posting high progressives could be detrimental, rather than helpful.

How about this. Instead of posting high progressives, I'll let everyone know whenever I create new progressive strategies or when I post instructional videos on my web-site.

I think your points are valid and the last thing I would want to do is detract from the business. I concede the point.

I will say this. I played on a 3% meter-Rise dollar last month up past $22,000 with a cost of about $10,200. That's about $370 an hour and a 7.3% edge for those of you who like to know the overlay. In the interests of preserving the play, I won't say where or what it is.

There still out there boys and girls, and if you find just one good progressive a month, it's like a whole month of non-progressive play. Good luck everyone. And keep making suggestions. I'm an old hand at playing progressives, I'm new in the author biz.

Just FYI: 90% of my lifetime earn has come from progressives, with the other 10% being promotions and flattops. Just thought you all should know.

"Some say, the secret to financial success is thinking 'outside the box.' I say, thinking inside the box is fine, as long as you sell the box after you're done."

~Frank Kneeland, former manager of the largest Vegas slot team and Author of The Secret World of Video Poker Progressives--A History and How-To of Video Poker Slot Teams in Las Vegas. www.progressivevp.com

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--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "bobbartop" <bobbartop@...> wrote:

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "Frank" <frank@> wrote:
>
> This is my first post on vpFREE. I just joined the group and will be
> adding high progressive warnings periodically.

With all due respect, is this something we all really want to see added to VPFree? Sure, if I were the only one reading it it would be great. But as a group we are already suffering from too much information plastered all over cyberspace.

And this is an honest question on my part so feel free to jump on my case everyone but I am wondering if this could hurt what opportunity is still out there. I mean, if we have regular alerts as to great progressive opportunities, is it possible the casino suits might send them to the same graveyard where they buried all the FPDW machines? Or that too many players knowing about them might burn them out somehow?

I bought your book, Frank, and appreciate what you accomplished in this field, and appreciate your talent. I think mine is a legitimate question, though.

best regards,
Bob Bartop

#8

I think this is perhaps the most interesting aspect of video poker. And it's always fresh.

···

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "Frank" <frank@...> wrote:

How about this. Instead of posting high progressives, I'll let everyone know whenever I create new progressive strategies or when I post instructional videos on my web-site.

#9

A little TOO fresh if you ask me. I came to power in a world where if you knew the strategies for more than three VP games--you were a PRO's PRO.

Good luck out there.

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--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "bobbartop" <bobbartop@...> wrote:

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "Frank" <frank@> wrote:
>
>
> How about this. Instead of posting high progressives, I'll let everyone know whenever I create new progressive strategies or when I post instructional videos on my web-site.
>

I think this is perhaps the most interesting aspect of video poker. And it's always fresh.

#10

How do you convince casinos to bring back games like 8-5 Jacks with 2% meter? It's a money winner for the casino, sorely needed in these tough times, yet the casinos hate progressives, perhaps because they know somebody is gonna hit it and win big and casinos really really hate winners, despite the marketing hype of "loving our winners". Casinos even hate MegaBucks and Wheel of Fortune progressives, the only reason they tolerate them is because IGT pays off the jackpot directly, so nobody at the casino can get blamed for paying out a huge jackpot. So, how do you convince a casino to get over their reptilian brain jealousy of someone winning and to instead listen to their rational money making brain and put back machines that generate play and make money for the casino at the same time, like 8-5 Jacks with 2% meter, 8-5 Double Double Bonus with 2% meter, etc.?

···

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "Frank" <frank@...> wrote:

If anyone has any questions on progressive VP please feel free to ask me.

#11

I don't believe casinos are, or should be, very concerned
about the size of video poker progressives since the casino's
hold is determined by the paytables at reset values. And,
most progressives have a negative ER at reset and are
thereby immune from burnout play by pros.

In any event, the sharing of information about good video
poker opportunities is welcomed and encouraged on vpFREE.
The publicizing of good plays may be unwelcome to a few, but
it's in the best interest of vpFREE as a group.

vpFREE Administrator

···

________________________________________

Frank wrote:

This is my first post on vpFREE. I just joined the group
and will be adding high progressive warnings periodically.

bobbartop replied:

With all due respect, is this something we all really want
to see added to VPFree? Sure, if I were the only one
reading it it would be great. But as a group we are already
suffering from too much information plastered all over
cyberspace.

....... I am wondering if this could hurt what opportunity
is still out there. I mean, if we have regular alerts as to
great progressive opportunities, is it possible the casino
suits might send them to the same graveyard where they
buried all the FPDW machines? Or that too many players
knowing about them might burn them out somehow?

#12

That's a tricky question. I believe at least some of ban on high-meter-rise progressives is out of ignorance. I am planning on writing a casino-white-paper (perhaps with Bob) to cover the actual reality of progressives as a source of revenue for casinos.

The biggest thing we as a community can do is not to lock out the casino's regular customers when progressives get high. If you see a regular player angling for a seat, give it to them while you are at dinner or offer to time share it with them (even if they aren't a pro). And better yet, tell a manager or slot host,

"Hey if you have a regular player that would really like to play this high progressive I'll be going to dinner, or resting xx, they're welcome to my seat while I'm sleeping/eating."

There is no reason other than customer complaints about locked up progressives, that should be of any concern to a casino. In fact, progressives are the only potentially profitable way to make a living in a casino that does not hurt, but actually helps the casino's bottom line!

FK

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--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "nightoftheiguana2000" <nightoftheiguana2000@...> wrote:

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "Frank" <frank@> wrote:
> If anyone has any questions on progressive VP please feel free to ask me.

How do you convince casinos to bring back games like 8-5 Jacks with 2% meter? It's a money winner for the casino, sorely needed in these tough times, yet the casinos hate progressives, perhaps because they know somebody is gonna hit it and win big and casinos really really hate winners, despite the marketing hype of "loving our winners". Casinos even hate MegaBucks and Wheel of Fortune progressives, the only reason they tolerate them is because IGT pays off the jackpot directly, so nobody at the casino can get blamed for paying out a huge jackpot. So, how do you convince a casino to get over their reptilian brain jealousy of someone winning and to instead listen to their rational money making brain and put back machines that generate play and make money for the casino at the same time, like 8-5 Jacks with 2% meter, 8-5 Double Double Bonus with 2% meter, etc.?

#13

Casino "suits" are not always rational. And I'm being polite.

···

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "vpFREE Administrator" <vpfreeadmin@...> wrote:

I don't believe casinos are, or should be, very concerned
about the size of video poker progressives since the casino's
hold is determined by the paytables at reset values. And,
most progressives have a negative ER at reset and are
thereby immune from burnout play by pros.

#14

Here the admin is right. However, even though the Casinos should not be concerned, some are. I have personally witnessed casino employees kicking out pros and non-pros alike playing high progressives for various reasons, not the least of which was jealousy.

Where employees are allowed to play after work, you have the biggest problems.

I have resorted to getting a job as a cocktail server, to play in a casino where the progressives were really good.

FK

P.S. I made abut $200 a night in tips, and $400 off duty. I couldn't do it now, the high-heels would hurt too much.

···

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "vpFREE Administrator" <vpfreeadmin@...> wrote:

I don't believe casinos are, or should be, very concerned
about the size of video poker progressives since the casino's
hold is determined by the paytables at reset values. And,
most progressives have a negative ER at reset and are
thereby immune from burnout play by pros.

In any event, the sharing of information about good video
poker opportunities is welcomed and encouraged on vpFREE.
The publicizing of good plays may be unwelcome to a few, but
it's in the best interest of vpFREE as a group.

vpFREE Administrator

________________________________________

Frank wrote:

> This is my first post on vpFREE. I just joined the group
> and will be adding high progressive warnings periodically.

bobbartop replied:

With all due respect, is this something we all really want
to see added to VPFree? Sure, if I were the only one
reading it it would be great. But as a group we are already
suffering from too much information plastered all over
cyberspace.

....... I am wondering if this could hurt what opportunity
is still out there. I mean, if we have regular alerts as to
great progressive opportunities, is it possible the casino
suits might send them to the same graveyard where they
buried all the FPDW machines? Or that too many players
knowing about them might burn them out somehow?

#15

Ha! You're funny, Frank. And I got a kick out of your sense of humor in the book. (by the way everyone, it's a good book!) Hey Frank, can I ask you a personal question? How old are you? Are there any pictures of you on the internet? Links, please.

···

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "Frank" <frank@...> wrote:

Here the admin is right. However, even though the Casinos should not be concerned, some are. I have personally witnessed casino employees kicking out pros and non-pros alike playing high progressives for various reasons, not the least of which was jealousy.

Where employees are allowed to play after work, you have the biggest problems.

I have resorted to getting a job as a cocktail server, to play in a casino where the progressives were really good.

FK

P.S. I made abut $200 a night in tips, and $400 off duty. I couldn't do it now, the high-heels would hurt too much.

#16

And speaking of "dumb moves", I'm still waiting to read in print about the fiasco at Jerry's Nugget a few months ago. Yes, it should be a separate thread. I just assumed that people were not discussing it on the internet for a reason. But it was a doozy! Dumb promo, and then horrible management reaction afterwards. imho

···

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "bobbartop" <bobbartop@...> wrote:

Casino "suits" are not always rational. And I'm being polite.

#17

vpFREE Administrator wrote:

I don't believe casinos are, or should be, very concerned
about the size of video poker progressives since the casino's
hold is determined by the paytables at reset values. And,
most progressives have a negative ER at reset and are
thereby immune from burnout play by pros.

In any event, the sharing of information about good video
poker opportunities is welcomed and encouraged on vpFREE.
The publicizing of good plays may be unwelcome to a few, but
it's in the best interest of vpFREE as a group.

I'm inclined to largely disagree with you on this one on the count of "pro immmunity".

To be clear, the casino hold is a function of the reset paytable plus the advance on the progressive meter. We're in agreement that casino net theo profitability from a player is largely a constant, irrespective of the meter value. As such, pro "burnout" at a high meter shouldn't be a factor.

But it should be self-evident that high meters draw in players and it's to the casino's advantage that the bank not be packed with highly skilled players. To the extent that pro activity crowds out other players at peak periods, the casino definitely comes out on the short end of the stick.

An even more salient point is the satisfaction of the casino's bread and butter players. To the extent that they find themselves crowded out at the most attractive times, sometimes made all the more evident when pros actively engage in conversations and cell phone calls in which they plan play "shifts", the "bread and butter" can become a pretty dissatisfied sort and bitterly bend the ear of casino managers.

In my book, all of this points directly to why pro participation on a progressive bank would be of keen interest to an enlightened management.

As far as the wisdom of publishing high meters, I'll largely keep my peace. This is predominantly a LV issue; not my arena.

But, generally speaking, I can readily see why someone who makes the investment of time and effort to keep their ear to the ground, and foster a network of acquaintances who are willing to share such information, would object to info on plays with limited availability being distributed in a free-wheeling manner, perhaps begging the image of someone slopping the pigs.

As a "recreational" player, I'm not personally terribly concerned about the welfare of pros, since most make clear that it's a dog-eat-dog world. But, in an arena of limited opportunities, there's still room to show consideration for someone who puts in an effort to gain a play advantage vs someone who scavenges for clues haphazardly.

#18

Would someone be so kind as to explain how the casino's hold is determined on a progressive vp machine

#19

Also bonusing slots, live action poker, sports bets, or any promotion that pits the players against each other. The winners in effect become shills for the casino and attract more players than would otherwise play.

I wonder if IGT can be convinced to do some state wide or region wide progressive on video poker or keno like they do now with slots. Sounds like a win-win, the casinos don't have to worry about paying off the big jackpots, and IGT gets to collect some of the drop in exchange. IGT's math department obviously knows how progressives work.

For those who haven't heard it yet, here's Frank's interview by Gambler's Books:

http://gamblersbookclub.libsyn.com/index.php?post_id=634249

···

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "Frank" <frank@...> wrote:

In fact, progressives are the only potentially profitable way to make a living in a casino that does not hurt, but actually helps the casino's bottom line!

#20

Thank you for the praise on my book. I can't take credit for the sense of humor. My Dad was a comedy writer for Bob Hope in his early days, and wrote about half the skits for the The Alcoa Hour TV Show. Mom did stand-up. So it runs in the family.

I'm just turning 43 and have been in VP since age 21, making me young and old at the same time.

Here's a pic: https://www.progressivevp.com/about_the_author.php

For the record, I really was a cocktail server at Harvey's in lake Tahoe to facilitate playing the Mountain Bar, a 4.5% progressive. The uniform was a tux.

···

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "bobbartop" <bobbartop@...> wrote:

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "Frank" <frank@> wrote:
>
> Here the admin is right. However, even though the Casinos should not be concerned, some are. I have personally witnessed casino employees kicking out pros and non-pros alike playing high progressives for various reasons, not the least of which was jealousy.
>
> Where employees are allowed to play after work, you have the biggest problems.
>
> I have resorted to getting a job as a cocktail server, to play in a casino where the progressives were really good.
>
> FK
>
> P.S. I made abut $200 a night in tips, and $400 off duty. I couldn't do it now, the high-heels would hurt too much.
>

Ha! You're funny, Frank. And I got a kick out of your sense of humor in the book. (by the way everyone, it's a good book!) Hey Frank, can I ask you a personal question? How old are you? Are there any pictures of you on the internet? Links, please.