Has anyone evaluated the new 5 Aces games? The $1 JoB at Boulder
Station has the following pay table
5 Aces 6000
RF 4000
SF 500
4 Aces 400
4 2s-4s 200
4 5s-Ks 125
FH 45
Flush 30
Straight 20
3 Kind 15
2 Pair 5
JoB 5
The 5th Ace seems to help in getting 4 Aces and for the big payoff
with 5 Aces.
--Rita
New Game - 5 Aces JoB
Rita wrote:
Has anyone evaluated the new 5 Aces games? The $1 JoB at Boulder
Station has the following pay table
5 Aces 6000
RF 4000
SF 500
4 Aces 400
4 2s-4s 200
4 5s-Ks 125
FH 45
Flush 30
Straight 20
3 Kind 15
2 Pair 5
JoB 5
The 5th Ace seems to help in getting 4 Aces and for the big payoff
with 5 Aces.
Using some rough approximations, this looks like it could be playable,
however, some more precise calculations are necessary.
Let's use 9/6/4 DB as a starting point. That's a 96.4% game. But
the quads pay half those of DB, which contribute 16%. So back out 8%
to 88.4%. The SF pays double, so add in .6% and now we're at 89%.
To become nominally respectable, we need around a 10% from the
additional Ace.
There's only one selection of 5 Aces compared to 4 suited RF's. With
a 2% contribution from the RF's and a 1.5x payout on the Aces, the
quint Aces add around .8%. We're now at 89.8%.
Quad Aces normally contribute 3.6%. At half the payout that would be
1.8% that we've included above. However, there are five selections of
quad Aces in this game for every one in standard DB. That gives us an
additional 7.2%, for a total of 97% now.
In the standard game there are 24 distinct high pairs. Here an
additional 4 are added. With a 21.4% contribution normally, this adds
3.5%, now giving us 100.5%.
However, there's going to be a respectable giveback in that having a
fifth Ace in the deck will prove to be an interference that will
reduce the frequency of certain other hands.
For example, you'd expect fewer straights since an Ace would show up
in the hand more frequently and it's harder to form an Ace hi straight
than other straights. Ace low straights are exceedingly rare. Count
on fewer quads outside of the Aces as an offset to return as well. I
could see where this would cut at least .4%
You haven't stated how this fifth Ace is suited. If it's a
"non-suited" card (akin to a wild card) that would cut into flushes,
as well as straight and royal flushes.
Assuming the extra Ace is a spade, or another suit, I've accounted for
a near-breakeven game. However, the "interference" may account for a
considerably higher reduction to return and all these numbers are very
rough. But I'd say it's more likely the game comes in above 99% than
below.
All this said, I'm very suspicious of my calculations. Nine out of
ten times (picking a ratio out of the air :), anytime a novelty is
added to a standard vp game you can count on a VERY poor game (95%-97%
seems to be par).
It's an interesting game, if nothing else.
- Harry
s001vegas wrote:
Has anyone evaluated the new 5 Aces games?
snip
Can you or anyone else provide details as to what this deck is composed of? How many cards in the deck? Are there 56 with 8 Aces in order to provide an equal number of each suit -- but substantially altering odds across the board? Or are there just 53 -- the regular 52 plus one extra Ace in order enable 5 Aces? If the latter, then what is the suit of the extra '5th' Ace? If it has one of the regular four suits, that factor substantially alters strategy, making it easier to make a flush in one suit than the other three. Or is the 5th Ace just a blank non-suit that can be treated as any suit, like a wild card, for purposes of flushes. Or is it just a 53 card deck with a randomly drawn 5th Ace; I think this is possible to do and yet be quite different than a 56 card deck, but I won't digress into that. This information is really vital to do any reasonable analysis of the game.
Thanks.
Bill Velek
It is a 53-card deck with 5 aces. The extra ace is the ace of Stars. It is
not a wild card.
···
At 10:49 AM 04/28/2004, you wrote:
Can you or anyone else provide details as to what this deck is composed
of? How many cards in the deck? Are there 56 with 8 Aces in order to
provide an equal number of each suit -- but substantially altering odds
across the board? Or are there just 53 -- the regular 52 plus one extra
Ace in order enable 5 Aces? If the latter, then what is the suit of the
extra '5th' Ace?
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
I played the two MG/MD Five Aces games at the Peppermill in Reno this last weekend.
(see my full trip report post at vpFree_Reno) They are located just outside of the new
Oceano Seafood restaurant. I played a couple hours of .25 "Jacks or Better" over my
5-day stay.
The machines were brand new and had speed settings, the fastest of which were as
fast as any game I have ever played, almost instantaneous deals and draws. Nice big
screen and cards (unlike that despicably small, fuzzy Multistrike screen).
The denoms are 5c/10c/25c and the Paytables were the same as Rita's post for a
game called "Jacks or Better", which as Bill V. points out, looks more like a 9/6 Bonus
Poker paytable.
Two other game choices: Double Bonus and Dbl Dbl Bonus, both of which had a
knock-down to 8-1 for the Full house and an important other feature: the lowest
paying hand was PAIR of Aces, not Jacks or better !!
Here's the pay tables at 25c denom: (I think it had some knock-downs for 5c & 10c)
Five Aces DB:
5 Aces 6000
RF 4000
SF 500
4 Aces 160
4 2s-4s 80
4 5s-Ks 50
FH 40
Flush 30
Str8 20
3 Kind 15
2 pair 5
AA 5
Five Aces DDB:
5 Aces 6000
RF 4000
SF 500
4 Aces w/2,3,4 kicker 400
4 Aces 160
4 2s-4s w/A,2,3,4 kicker 160
4 2s-4s 80
4 5s-Ks 50
FH 40
Flush 30
Str8 20
3 Kind 10 *
2 pair 5
AA 5
The game intrigued me, and I have to thank Harry for the well-reasoned attempt to
guess the EV. I used a regular DDB type strategy that said generally, when in doubt,
save the Ace(s) alone. Straight draws to the 2-5 and T-K should certainly move up.
There are many more factors to weigh of course. There are that many more full
houses that will come in holding one or two Aces. In the DDB game, the extra A
chance for a quad 2s-4s kicker helps. But also in DDB, there's the ugly 2-1 for trips
knockdown.
Also, I will be quite interested to read the Dancer article.
How in the world can he calculate an EV "for perfect play" for this game when perfect
strategy has not been calculated? Does he have software that he doesn't sell? Is he
privvy to some manufacturers super-computer that can calculate perfect strategy for
this odd game? Will he share it? Will it cost us?
Tough to play a $1 version for very long with no strategy, unless you are lucky.
Should be a fun one for the Ace-happy in the crowd.
~MARK P.
p.p.s Why hasn't Dancer done a Joker Wild Guide? could that be next in the series?
---Rita wrote:
···
Has anyone evaluated the new 5 Aces games? The $1 JoB at Boulder
Station has the following pay table
5 Aces 6000
RF 4000
SF 500
4 Aces 400
4 2s-4s 200
4 5s-Ks 125
FH 45
Flush 30
Straight 20
3 Kind 15
2 Pair 5
JoB 5
The 5th Ace seems to help in getting 4 Aces and for the big payoff
with 5 Aces.
--Rita
Mark wrote:
The game intrigued me, and I have to thank Harry for the
well-reasoned attempt to guess the EV.
You're welcome. As a reminder, in absence of better info at the time
I assumed that the fifth Ace was suited. Because it's not suited, no
flushes, SF's, or RF's are possible when it's present in the hand,
reducing EV considerably.
I used a regular DDB type strategy that said generally, when in
doubt, save the Ace(s) alone. Straight draws to the 2-5 and T-K
should certainly move up.
Clearly a good move on the Aces. The value of the straight holds
definitely increases, but not likely enough to change strategy. The
straight is still a relatively weak hand. (For example, I certainly
expect suited 2 4 5 9 to beat out non-suited 2-5, likewise a pair to
beat 2-5.)
Also, I will be quite interested to read the Dancer article.
How in the world can he calculate an EV "for perfect play" for this
game when perfect strategy has not been calculated? Does he have
software that he doesn't sell? Is he privvy to some manufacturers
super-computer that can calculate perfect strategy for this odd
game?
I haven't seen the article, but he may simply be relying on
information provided by the manufacturer. The casinos look to the
manufacturer for optimal ER info to ensure they don't install a
paytable that'll kill them.
Of course, the manufacturer will also give the casino an indication of
actual expected hold relative to optimal ER (e.g. "2% below"). With a
game like this, where strategy is likely non-intuitive, a considerably
sub-optimal return is likely. As far as how the designer's determine
ER, they employ math whiz's who are reasonably on par with Dean Zamzow
or Jim Wolf.
p.p.s Why hasn't Dancer done a Joker Wild Guide? could that be next
in the series?
His recent comments on the winpoker group would suggest that this
indeed is in the works. For the sake of completeness, it looks like
he'll even address the 97.2% AC JW game, making allowance for 5K
progressives that would push the game positive.
- Harry
Can you or anyone else provide details as to what this deck is
composed
of?
The deck consists of 53 cards:
The standard 52 (2-A of Diamonds, Hearts, Clubs, Spades)
Plus the A of Stars
The Ace of Stars cannot be used to complete a flush, straight flush,
or Royal Flush. The highest ranking hand in the game is Five Aces,
not Royal Flush.