vpFREE2 Forums

Need Calculation Help

Looks like I need help! I don't know how I missed the fact that the
game being played was 10/7 DB.

I go back to my Excel, use the same distribution of winning hands for
either condition, but plug in the payouts for the Double Bonus 10/7
situation. And voila, I do get 11040.

For the Excel initiated,

         Hold:KQJ9 Hold:KQJ
JHand Payout Total:47 prob Total:1081 prob
RF 11040 1 0.00093
SF 250 1 0.02128
Flush 35 8 0.17021 35 0.03238
Strait 25 3 0.06383 27 0.02498
3ofKind 15 9 0.00833
2-Pair 5 27 0.02498
JoB 5 9 0.19149 348 0.32192
  Exp Value 13.82979 13.82979

Finally, a Bonus, this being a Bonus game.

RF Value EV-KQJ9 EV-KQJ
11030 13.82979 13.82054
11040 13.82979 13.82979
11050 13.82979 13.83904

I am sure this would be completely unreadable here, but if you cut
and paste it into Excel, it would format itself fairly decently.

Does anybody know how to deal with tables such as this, and make them
readable? Tabs seem to be out of question.

···

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "murphyfields" <jkludge@...> wrote:

I think that explains it. I was using 10/7 DB which I believe was
mentioned in the original post.

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, Tom Robertson <thomasrrobertson@...>
wrote:

I (confidently) get $11,040, also. As a practical matter, though,
there are at least 2 reasons to wait until much higher than that to
draw to the royal.

Such as what?

Does one of them has to do with tipping?

Tipping and the time associated with hand-pays would go into the "at
least" category, not being the two primary reasons. The least
important of the two primary reasons, neither of which I know how to
calculate, may not often qualify as making it better to wait until
"much" higher than $11,040, as often does the most important. It's
that there is a higher variance to the royal draw, and thus requires a
bigger bankroll. All else being equal, besides all the other reasons
to not draw to the royal, if the progressive, which I assume is the
context, were exactly at $11,040 and I were dealt this hand, I would
unhesitatingly draw to the straight flush, and only at some point
higher than that would I start drawing to the royal. But mainly, and
in addition, I've never heard of a 10/7 progressive as high as
$11,040. I would value it greatly. Assuming hitting the jackpot
would make it reset to $4000, I would count that as a significant cost
of hitting it, and would incorporate my best estimate of that cost
into my strategy. The very fact that one is playing a progressive
means that hitting the jackpot will incur this cost. Only if there
are infinitely many 10/7 progressives at $11,040, or anything
equivalent, that one can play immediately after hitting the first one,
is there no such cost. Calculating it is impossible. Opportunity
cost is relevant. How many machines are on the progressive is
relevant. A machine being broken down, and when it might be fixed, is
relevant. Meter movement is relevant. At what point one plans to
next play the progressive after this one is hit is relevant. How long
one plans to play is relevant, which makes the speed of the machines
relevant. How fast other people are playing is relevant, etc. As
opposed to the underlying math, which shows that a royal of $11,040 is
where these two draws are of equal value, this cost changes
constantly, since so many non-mathematical factors go into it. When I
hear anyone say that they play "perfectly" on a progressive, I know
that they aren't incorporating the effect of this cost, as they must
to have any chance of playing "perfectly," on their strategy. The
impossibility of calculating it has simplified my approach. Just as
there's no point in getting, say, the third decimal place of one
number accurate if it will be added to a number which is known to be
accurate to only one decimal place, there's no point in nitpicking
over accuracy of when to start drawing to the royal on a progressive
if one significant factor in that determination is so full of
uncertainty.

You raised so many aspects that go into this decision, some of which
I was unaware of, some of which I don't understand, and some that I
have been spared(!) thus far.

But to me, it all boils down to this question. You are staring at a
dealt hand of KQJ9,x. The choice is to hold KQJ or KQJ9. The Straight
Flush payout is 250. The Royal Flush payout is more than 10000. There
is a fork in the road.

At that point, apart from the overall strategy of the game, what is
the immediate preferred strategy? The answer for that, it seems to
me, is to hold KQJ is the RF is valued > 11040, and KQJ9 if it is
less. Obviously I am not taking into account all the other factors
into account. I have to admit that I don't know the full import of
some of the factors you mentioned; one in particular that if you draw
to a Royal Flush (of 11040), it will be immediately reset to 4000.

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, Tom Robertson <thomasrrobertson@...>
wrote:

>--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, Tom Robertson <thomasrrobertson@>
>wrote:
>>
>> I (confidently) get $11,040, also. As a practical matter,

though,

>> there are at least 2 reasons to wait until much higher than that

to

>> draw to the royal.
>
>Such as what?
>
>Does one of them has to do with tipping?

Tipping and the time associated with hand-pays would go into the "at
least" category, not being the two primary reasons. The least
important of the two primary reasons, neither of which I know how to
calculate, may not often qualify as making it better to wait until
"much" higher than $11,040, as often does the most important. It's
that there is a higher variance to the royal draw, and thus

requires a

bigger bankroll. All else being equal, besides all the other

reasons

to not draw to the royal, if the progressive, which I assume is the
context, were exactly at $11,040 and I were dealt this hand, I would
unhesitatingly draw to the straight flush, and only at some point
higher than that would I start drawing to the royal. But mainly,

and

in addition, I've never heard of a 10/7 progressive as high as
$11,040. I would value it greatly. Assuming hitting the jackpot
would make it reset to $4000, I would count that as a significant

cost

of hitting it, and would incorporate my best estimate of that cost
into my strategy. The very fact that one is playing a progressive
means that hitting the jackpot will incur this cost. Only if there
are infinitely many 10/7 progressives at $11,040, or anything
equivalent, that one can play immediately after hitting the first

one,

is there no such cost. Calculating it is impossible. Opportunity
cost is relevant. How many machines are on the progressive is
relevant. A machine being broken down, and when it might be fixed,

is

relevant. Meter movement is relevant. At what point one plans to
next play the progressive after this one is hit is relevant. How

long

one plans to play is relevant, which makes the speed of the machines
relevant. How fast other people are playing is relevant, etc. As
opposed to the underlying math, which shows that a royal of $11,040

is

where these two draws are of equal value, this cost changes
constantly, since so many non-mathematical factors go into it.

When I

···

hear anyone say that they play "perfectly" on a progressive, I know
that they aren't incorporating the effect of this cost, as they must
to have any chance of playing "perfectly," on their strategy. The
impossibility of calculating it has simplified my approach. Just as
there's no point in getting, say, the third decimal place of one
number accurate if it will be added to a number which is known to be
accurate to only one decimal place, there's no point in nitpicking
over accuracy of when to start drawing to the royal on a progressive
if one significant factor in that determination is so full of
uncertainty.

You raised so many aspects that go into this decision, some of which
I was unaware of, some of which I don't understand, and some that I
have been spared(!) thus far.

But to me, it all boils down to this question. You are staring at a
dealt hand of KQJ9,x. The choice is to hold KQJ or KQJ9. The Straight
Flush payout is 250. The Royal Flush payout is more than 10000. There
is a fork in the road.

At that point, apart from the overall strategy of the game, what is
the immediate preferred strategy? The answer for that, it seems to
me, is to hold KQJ is the RF is valued > 11040, and KQJ9 if it is
less.

Yes, that, as soon as the royal can actually be valued at more than
$11,040, all factors considered, the royal draw is better is a good
way of summarizing what I meant. One way of looking at the
"fluctuation cost" of a draw is that the value of money has
diminishing marginal utility. A penny saved is better than a penny
earned. A royal flush of $11,040 isn't ten times as valuable as an
$1104 jackpot. I think the same principle applies to sports.
"Defense wins championships." Only after all of these factors, and
possibly many more that I've never even thought of, are accurately
incorporated, can one play "perfectly."