vpFREE2 Forums

Native American Casinos

#1

A continuing theme through out this site is that machines might be
gaffed at Native American Casinos. I think I read something about
some machines in California where this allegedly happened and
supposedly on some off brand of machines, but am not sure if this
was a proven fact or just a suspicion.

Has anybody ever seen, heard, read, proved, etc any gaffing of
machines in Native American casinos? All the ones I play at in
Michigan seem totally legit, use mostly IGT machnes and do not have
that great of a paytable that there would be any need to gaff the
machines.

I feel that if it were ever done and found out that the bad press
would outweigh any profit to be gained. When I see someone playing
JOB and hold a pair and an ace kicker, or playing deuces wild and
hold a deuce and an ace that there is no need to gaff the machines.

I understand that nothing in the line of a control commission would
prevent doing so and that in itself makes people leary, but some on
here make it sound as if it is a sure thing.

I think they are fair.

DWK

#2

It sounds as though you're only looking for others to confirm the feel-good
position you're trying to talk yourself into about Indian gaming. Think about
it....then think about why it is that Indians won't allow outside/independent
regulation or inspection of their games. See any resemblances to Internet
gaming?

···

From: deuceswild1000 I think they are fair.

#3

From: deuceswild1000 I think they are fair.

It sounds as though you're only looking for others to confirm the

feel-good

position you're trying to talk yourself into about Indian gaming.

Think about

it....then think about why it is that Indians won't allow

outside/independent

regulation or inspection of their games. See any resemblances to

Internet

gaming?

I knew that somebody would say that. I still have not seen any
proof.

···

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "Rob Singer" <rsinger1111@c...> wrote:

#4

deuceswild1000 wrote:

I knew that somebody would say that. I still have not seen any
proof.

To be honest, I think if standard industry gaming equipment (IGT,
Sigma, Bally, etc.) is in use, then you're probably playing fair games
in Native American Casinos.

But then, I have a trusting nature :). There will be others who will
say that given the opportunity, any casino will tip the balance in
their favor.

On the other hand, if you're playing non-standard equipment (such as
the VLT machines in Washington State), then you might as well be
playing a slot machine.

In any case, you should play with the understanding that you're at
considerably greater risk to altered equipment in a Native American
Casino than in a regulated venue such as LV or AC. I personally would
reserve the lion's share of my bankroll for an occasional trip to play
FPDW in LV, writing off the airfare as entertainment expense. You'll
definitely get a lot bigger thrill out of your play than hanging
around Mt. Pleasant (or wherever :).

- Harry

#5

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "Harry Porter" <harry.porter@v...>
wrote:

deuceswild1000 wrote:
> I knew that somebody would say that. I still have not seen any
> proof.

To be honest, I think if standard industry gaming equipment (IGT,
Sigma, Bally, etc.) is in use, then you're probably playing fair

games

in Native American Casinos.

But then, I have a trusting nature :). There will be others who

will

say that given the opportunity, any casino will tip the balance in
their favor.

On the other hand, if you're playing non-standard equipment (such

as

the VLT machines in Washington State), then you might as well be
playing a slot machine.

In any case, you should play with the understanding that you're at
considerably greater risk to altered equipment in a Native American
Casino than in a regulated venue such as LV or AC. I personally

would

reserve the lion's share of my bankroll for an occasional trip to

play

FPDW in LV, writing off the airfare as entertainment expense.

You'll

definitely get a lot bigger thrill out of your play than hanging
around Mt. Pleasant (or wherever :).

- Harry

As usual Harry you have given your opinion of the message without
attacking the messenger. I appreciate that. For reasons that I
will not go into here, Las Vegas is not a viable location for us.
However Biloxi at the Copa and some of the other places in Biloxi on
extra point days are enjoyed by us every Feb or March.

Recognizing that the risk is there, I do not see how something like
that could go on without exposure by a disgruntled employee or
something like that. There are too many people that would have to
be involved and then keep the secret for a long time for it to not
get out, in my opinion.

DWK

#6

"I knew that somebody would say that. I still have not seen any proof."

Yes, seeing is believing. It's also very true that I have seen no proof that the games are absolutely fair in Nevada either. So it all then boils down to an application of common sense. Based on my own extensive study of Gaming Regulation in Nv., I am reasonably sure enough that everything's on the up-and-up, that I will do as Harry points out - save the major portion of my bankroll for Nv. and play for profit there.

Your statement questioning whether at least one whistle-blower from Indian gaming anywhere would have shown up by now is at first glance, a valid one. But again, based on an extensive study here and of the 2 giant casinos in Connecticut, it is a fact that only a very very tiny percentage of tribal members are actually involved in the self-regulation. They also turn out to have become, in both cases, the only extremely wealthy individuals on the reservations, and I believe are tied to a pact of silence for obvious reasons. Besides, whether or not VP machines are random is not a big or even a moral issue to them. There's no laws that say they have to be anything. Slots are controlled....why not vp machines? So the machines from IGT etc. have to leave the facilities in random working order? Altering that function is a simple process. That's why I presented the analogy to Internet VP.

···

From: deuceswild1000

#7

There's another salient point that is implied here. Solid VP discussion
groups serve as a watchdog for any shenanigans that casino's may put out to
the public. We are a thorn in their side with comments from expert players
such as "Has anybody ever beat the machine at Verona - $1 pickem - I just
lost $2000 straight and went 10000 hands without a four of a kind". Never
underestimate the power of greed my friends. As far as many people being
involved with a gaff - It can be done mostly at a high level. The casino
owner orders a set of chips with secondary programming. Right before a big
promotion they take 10 minutes to exchange chips with 10 machines. If asked
by slot techs about the chip change the answer is "because of the promo - to
handle the extra points". After the promotion, they take another 10 minutes
to restore the original chips back. Only the casino owner and the chip
gaffer know what just hit them, and the players who can't understand their
bad luck that promo weekend ! Computer technology allows a machine to be
totally reprogrammed in 1 second over a LAN - no chip change is needed. I
don't think this is allowed by Nevada gaming - YET!. Our VP discussion group
should obtain some contacts over at IGT to find out more about the machines
, how they work, and what they can and can't do legally.
I know a slot director at one of the major Vegas casino's, I'll run some of
this stuff past him and let the group know.

regards...Tom

···

----- Original Message -----
From: "deuceswild1000" <deuceswild1000@yahoo.com>
To: <vpFREE@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Wednesday, August 06, 2003 11:52 PM
Subject: [vpFREE] Re: Native American Casinos

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "Rob Singer" <rsinger1111@c...> wrote:
>
> From: deuceswild1000 I think they are fair.
>
> It sounds as though you're only looking for others to confirm the
feel-good
> position you're trying to talk yourself into about Indian gaming.
Think about
> it....then think about why it is that Indians won't allow
outside/independent
> regulation or inspection of their games. See any resemblances to
Internet
> gaming?

I knew that somebody would say that. I still have not seen any
proof.

vpFREE Links: http://tinyurl.com/a7ga

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

#8

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "deuceswild1000" <deuceswild1000@y...>
wrote:

···

Recognizing that the risk is there, I do not see how something like
that could go on without exposure by a disgruntled employee or
something like that. There are too many people that would have to
be involved and then keep the secret for a long time for it to not
get out, in my opinion.

DWK

--------------------
In my opinion, many people watch movies and many believe in what they
see in those movies (regarding casinos, the mobs, etc.). If a
disgruntled employee is one of these believers, I'm pretty sure s/he
already know what will happen to her/him if s/he doesn't keep his/her
mouth shut.

After visiting the casinos (including vegas) 100s of times, I've
never seen any of the machines (slots or vp) being checked. Maybe
they do this in some weird hours!? I do know for sure that if I ever
see any machine checking being performed by Nevada Gaming Control
personnel or whoever, I would feel very confident that these machines
are all as honest as can be.