vpFREE2 Forums

My Overpayment Stories

#1

Re: Does the casino have the right to ask you to return any overpayment?

My overpayment stories are not about machines, but while playing live table
games.

While playing roulette at The Reserve, I was overpaid on a wager. I knew I
was overpaid, but I kept my mouth shut. (I have no problem keeping any
extra money that comes my way.) After the ball was spun for the next game,
a floor person came up and told the dealer to take back the chips she had
overpaid. I objected, stating that the prior game was over, done,
complete. They called a pit boss over, who politely explained to me that
the casino has the right to take back the money paid in error, regardless of
how many games have passed since the overpayment. She also said that it
works the other way, as well. If they realize that they underpaid me, they
will pay me the rest that they owe me. After I gave back the overpayment,
the pit boss gave me a comp for a free meal (for my 'trouble'), which was
worth more than the overpayment. So, I still came out ahead.

Another time, while playing live poker at Aladdin, a dealer declared my hand
the winner, even though another player's hand was better. The other player
did not realize that he had me beat. The dealer pushed the chips to me. No
one at the table said a word and I kept the pot. I am not sure what would
have happened if it was ever discovered later by the casino. (Again, I have
no problem keeping any extra money that comes my way!)

···

On 3/22/06, BANDSTAND54@aol.com <BANDSTAND54@aol.com> wrote:

Howdy

Would you tell the casino if a VP you were playing was giving you payout
beyond the stated tables? Or, what if the money machine gave you more
money than
your ticket's worth?

On the other hand does the casino have the right to ask you to return any
overpayments in either or both occasions? Is it considered stealing?

The Grump

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

#2

Re: Does the casino have the right to ask you to return any overpayment?

Yes, in Nevada they also have the right to arrest you, accepting a
false win is a felony in Nevada. You would have to prove you had no
idea it was a false win, your word over the casino. Also, some casino
employee is probably also in trouble, whether they were knowingly
involved or not.

Another time, while playing live poker at Aladdin, a dealer declared

my hand

the winner, even though another player's hand was better. The other

player

did not realize that he had me beat. The dealer pushed the chips to

me. No

one at the table said a word and I kept the pot. I am not sure what

would

have happened if it was ever discovered later by the casino.

(Again, I have

no problem keeping any extra money that comes my way!)

The dealer must have figured you tip better. You did tip that play,
right? Of course, in that kind of situation you have to wonder if the
dealer is dealing seconds or some other "mechanic" card tricks.

···

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "Curtis Rich" <LGTVegas@...> wrote:

#3

Whatever happened until innocent until proven guilty. Why should the
burden of proof be placed on the defendant, especially if it is
considered a criminal matter. I would think the burden would be on
the casino to prove you knew it was a false win.

···

On Thu, 23 Mar 2006 08:30:28 -0000, you wrote:

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "Curtis Rich" <LGTVegas@...> wrote:

Re: Does the casino have the right to ask you to return any overpayment?

Yes, in Nevada they also have the right to arrest you, accepting a
false win is a felony in Nevada. You would have to prove you had no
idea it was a false win, your word over the casino. Also, some casino
employee is probably also in trouble, whether they were knowingly
involved or not.

#4

Assuming you are correct (that accepting a false win is a felony in Nevada),
I believe that the casino would have to prove that I knew it was a false
win.
Not the other way around. And, that would be impossible to prove in court.

I could say, "Hey....I'm just a stupid player. I don't know the correct
pay-outs for all the different bets at the roulette table. I just assumed
that
your dealer knew what he was doing...."

The casino would have to prove my guilt. I would not have to prove my
innocence.

···

On 3/23/06, nightoftheiguana2000 <nightoftheiguana2000@yahoo.com> wrote:

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "Curtis Rich" <LGTVegas@...> wrote:
> Re: Does the casino have the right to ask you to return any overpayment?

Yes, in Nevada they also have the right to arrest you, accepting a
false win is a felony in Nevada. You would have to prove you had no
idea it was a false win, your word over the casino. Also, some casino
employee is probably also in trouble, whether they were knowingly
involved or not.

> Another time, while playing live poker at Aladdin, a dealer declared
my hand
> the winner, even though another player's hand was better. The other
player
> did not realize that he had me beat. The dealer pushed the chips to
me. No
> one at the table said a word and I kept the pot. I am not sure what
would
> have happened if it was ever discovered later by the casino.
(Again, I have
> no problem keeping any extra money that comes my way!)

The dealer must have figured you tip better. You did tip that play,
right? Of course, in that kind of situation you have to wonder if the
dealer is dealing seconds or some other "mechanic" card tricks.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

#5

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "nightoftheiguana2000"
<nightoftheiguana2000@...> wrote:

Yes, in Nevada they also have the right to arrest you, accepting a
false win is a felony in Nevada. You would have to prove you had no
idea it was a false win, your word over the casino. Also, some casino

employee is probably also in trouble, whether they were knowingly
involved or not.

Dealer mis-payments happen frequently in live table games. Roughly
half are in the casinos' favor, and roughly half are in the players'
favor. The probability of getting arrested for accepting a mistaken
payout is essentially zero. Imagine the bad publicity generated if
some poor tourist was arrested and prosecuted because he didn't say
anything when he got paid on a push at a blackjack table. The
headlines would be "Come to Nevada - go to jail". The defence would
argue "The dealer, whose job and profession 40 hours per week for the
last xxx years has been to deal blackjack and make correct payouts, did
not recognize his error, but you expect my client, a tourist who plays
blackjack 3 or 4 times a year, to recognize and correct the dealer's
own mistake?? Puleeeeze!!!"
    
EE

#6

Allen Iverson overpayment story from last year:

http://www.mercurynews.com/mld/mercurynews/sports/13408366.htm

···

On 3/23/06, eecounter <eecounter@hotmail.com> wrote:

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "nightoftheiguana2000"
<nightoftheiguana2000@...> wrote:
>
>
> Yes, in Nevada they also have the right to arrest you, accepting a
> false win is a felony in Nevada. You would have to prove you had no
> idea it was a false win, your word over the casino. Also, some casino
employee is probably also in trouble, whether they were knowingly
involved or not.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Dealer mis-payments happen frequently in live table games. Roughly
half are in the casinos' favor, and roughly half are in the players'
favor. The probability of getting arrested for accepting a mistaken
payout is essentially zero. Imagine the bad publicity generated if
some poor tourist was arrested and prosecuted because he didn't say
anything when he got paid on a push at a blackjack table. The
headlines would be "Come to Nevada - go to jail". The defence would
argue "The dealer, whose job and profession 40 hours per week for the
last xxx years has been to deal blackjack and make correct payouts, did
not recognize his error, but you expect my client, a tourist who plays
blackjack 3 or 4 times a year, to recognize and correct the dealer's
own mistake?? Puleeeeze!!!"

EE

#7

Thanks, EE. That was well-put!!

I will continue to keep all overpayments that I receive, unless
discovered by the casino.

···

On 3/23/06, eecounter <eecounter@hotmail.com> wrote:

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "nightoftheiguana2000"
<nightoftheiguana2000@...> wrote:
> Yes, in Nevada they also have the right to arrest you, accepting a
> false win is a felony in Nevada. You would have to prove you had no
> idea it was a false win, your word over the casino. Also, some casino
employee is probably also in trouble, whether they were knowingly
involved or not.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Dealer mis-payments happen frequently in live table games. Roughly
half are in the casinos' favor, and roughly half are in the players'
favor. The probability of getting arrested for accepting a mistaken
payout is essentially zero. Imagine the bad publicity generated if
some poor tourist was arrested and prosecuted because he didn't say
anything when he got paid on a push at a blackjack table. The
headlines would be "Come to Nevada - go to jail". The defence would
argue "The dealer, whose job and profession 40 hours per week for the
last xxx years has been to deal blackjack and make correct payouts, did
not recognize his error, but you expect my client, a tourist who plays
blackjack 3 or 4 times a year, to recognize and correct the dealer's
own mistake?? Puleeeeze!!!"

EE

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

#8

> Dealer mis-payments happen frequently in live table games. Roughly
> half are in the casinos' favor, and roughly half are in the players'
> favor. The probability of getting arrested for accepting a mistaken
> payout is essentially zero. Imagine the bad publicity generated if
> some poor tourist was arrested and prosecuted because he didn't say
> anything when he got paid on a push at a blackjack table. The
> headlines would be "Come to Nevada - go to jail". The defence would
> argue "The dealer, whose job and profession 40 hours per week for the
> last xxx years has been to deal blackjack and make correct

payouts, did

> not recognize his error, but you expect my client, a tourist who plays
> blackjack 3 or 4 times a year, to recognize and correct the dealer's
> own mistake?? Puleeeeze!!!"

A number of us spent a summer in a brand spanking new jurisdiction
doing exactly just that-playing the dealer errors. Blackjack, Bac
(they'd forget to take dealer commission), Pai Gow (tiles and cards),
you name it. The machines weren't bad, either.

···

_______________________________________________________________________

we've arrived! paladingaming.net

#9

I recall playing BJ at the Las Vegas Hilton last year or the year before, and the dealer went to pay a player on a push. The player (an obvious rookie) pointed the error
out to the dealer. The dealer took back the payout and asked me and another fellow to explain to the rookie, the mistake he just made. I told him you keep your mouth shut
and give the dealer a nice tip on your next hand. Everybody chuckled and the dealer smiled and nodded in agreement.

Regards
A.P.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

#10

http://www.reviewjournal.com/lvrj_home/2003/Jul-06-Sun-2003/news/21616613.html

>> Re: Does the casino have the right to ask you to return any

overpayment?

···

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, sabyl55@... wrote:

On Thu, 23 Mar 2006 08:30:28 -0000, you wrote:
>--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "Curtis Rich" <LGTVegas@> wrote:
>
>Yes, in Nevada they also have the right to arrest you, accepting a
>false win is a felony in Nevada. You would have to prove you had no
>idea it was a false win, your word over the casino. Also, some casino
>employee is probably also in trouble, whether they were knowingly
>involved or not.
>

Whatever happened until innocent until proven guilty. Why should the
burden of proof be placed on the defendant, especially if it is
considered a criminal matter. I would think the burden would be on
the casino to prove you knew it was a false win.

#11

This has been a major thread on another site I
subscribe to. Let me share my thoughts.

   I started my serious AP career about 4 years ago. I
play BJ as well as VP, in my case, more and more VP as
time goes by, and less BJ. Whenever a BJ dealer made
an error in my favor I would correct them, feeling
very high-minded, moral, etc. I got a different
reaction than I expected from the dealer's so I
started giving the matter some serious thought. I
wondered why the dealers never thanked me, or seem to
appreciate the correction. And then I realized that
some times a floor person or another player had
corrected a dealer that underpaid me but what about
the times we all missed that? I was out that money, of
course. One time, when a little drunk, I misread my
cards and tried to double down on a 12. The dealer
asked me if I really wanted to double down on a twelve
and I gave her a generous tip (generous for this
cheapskate, anyway) when I changed my mind. Some AP's
have the philosophy that is akin to a war between them
and the casino. I do not, I have dealer and floor
people I consider my friends.

   I would advise people unfamiliar with the LAS
environment that they sould consider all casinos and
dealers to be honest (I know, I know, this is a
generality) and if they have a question about how to
play a table game, simply ask the dealer. Sometimes
they will refuse to answer you, or refer you to one of
the players etc. but as I learned from the book "Comp
City" it never hurts to ask in a casino!!!

   So now, this is how I feel about this in general
terms. Dealers don't like being shown up in front of
their supervisors. It is my responsibility to watch
out for mistakes, mine or theirs, but I am not mired
in paranoia. It is illegal for me to cheat, but taking
advantage of dealer mistakes, such as exposing their
hole card is not illegal, unethical or immoral. Floor
people (competent ones, at least) will encourage one
to hit their 19 if they KNOW the dealer has a 20. I
have many stories about dealer's mistakes, if anyone
is interested. Nowadays, I collect the money happily.
I have no idea whether I am ahead or behind on the
combination of my dumb mistakes and those of dealers.

···

--- Curtis Rich <LGTVegas@gmail.com> wrote:

Re: Does the casino have the right to ask you to
return any overpayment?

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#12

Nice post. Sounds like my kind of dealer!

···

out to the dealer. The dealer took back the payout
and asked me and another fellow to explain to the
rookie, the mistake he just made. I told him you
keep your mouth shut
and give the dealer a nice tip on your next hand.
Everybody chuckled and the dealer smiled and nodded
in agreement.

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#13

That's gross.
  Bob

···

Eric <fieldcommand@gmail.com> wrote:
  Allen Iverson overpayment story from last year:

http://www.mercurynews.com/mld/mercurynews/sports/13408366.htm

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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

#14

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "nightoftheiguana2000"
<nightoftheiguana2000@...> wrote:

http://www.reviewjournal.com/lvrj_home/2003/Jul-06-Sun-

2003/news/21616613.html

Iggy, any results of these lawsuits been published? That would be
interesting to read.