My First trip to Vegas Report

[djpeterson11]

QZ: I appreciate your taking the time to comment on my post so
thoroughly. I should just mention that as a long time lurker on
this board I have found your posts to be excellent since you cover
well the side of Vegas I am most interested in: the video poker comp
game.

  First time in Vegas? Yeah, sleep is tough. You did well
to get 4 hours.

This was my first trip to Vegas being over 21. However, I was
pretty familiar with Vegas already. I used to go there at least once
a year with my family. I learned card counting around the age of 12
(though I have since lost my skills) and familiarized myself with
the basics of advantage gambling: e.g. EV, bankroll, ROR, perfect
strategy. I read books like "Behind the Tables" and "Beat the
Dealer". I was familiar with such esoteric things as the Wong half
count in blackjack.

Played more

4700 dueces and lost more money. I then went over to the 4 queens

to

get my 500 points so I could use my lva coupon to double them

which

amounts to 1% cashback. The DB progressive was pretty good at

$1300

and I started playing it. After being a couple hundred down pretty
quickly I was kicking myself for playing DB since I knew how
dangerously streaky it could be based on tons of winpoker
simulations and I didn't even know the game's strategy perfectly,
though I knew it reasonably well. This was my low point of the

trip

and I was down about $500 overall of the $800 I brought with me.

  With only an $800 trip stake, I think you should have
waited till the end of the trip for this one. Even deuces could
gobble up your bankroll if you ran bad.

I had $800 cash on me but I had access to more through ATMs if I
needed it.

<<<
The slot host made me wait 10 minutes for
him to arrive and then said that my daily average was too low

(since

I put a little through the day before), that I was playing the

wrong

games, and, I suspect, that I had won too much for him to give me

a

measly food comp.

  This host is a moron. I bet you went somewhere else to
eat and you probably did not come back that day, if at all.
A new player who shows signs of giving action should be treated
well, even if the numbers are not quite right.

Very true. I went back to the Plaza for dinner at McDonalds and the
Plaza ended up winning more of my money on the Deuces. If he knew I
was an advantage player then he was making the correct decision.
However, since he most likely did not know this, he was making an
inexplicable business mistake.

<<<
... Lady Luck ... "$50 in slot
play for $10". This sounded interesting so I tried it out. Turns

  Bummer dude. These have been around for years. I encounterd
one at the Riviera. I am proud to say I figured out the deal
before investing cash. Persoanlly, I think these things are a
bad business decision. Potential customers are not likely to
think much of your casino after getting snookered like this.

Yep. I felt suckered. I wonder how many realize that it really is
a sucker bet. If people are willing to play slots anyway, I don't
think this gimmick would be much of a departure.

I finally went to the El Cortez and was very disappointed. THEY

HAVE

TERRIBLE VIDEO POKER. VPHomepage says they have tons of 4700 full
pay everything, but none of it was jokers or fpdw.

  Actually, they have a very good deuces wild game that has
an unusual payscale. I believe the deuces pay 2000 coins. You
probably saw the short pay on the other hands and thought it was
a bad game.

You're right about the deuces. It looked interesting but I hadn't
paid attention to it when looking through vphomepage since the
variance in the game was too much so I didn't make the connection at
the Cortez. I think these machines, too, were extremeley slow and
likely were coin fed and did not hold credits.

<<<
The highlight of my time at the El Cortez was when a
crackhead started following me around and talking to me about
advantage play and how he too lives off of casinos.
>>>

  Probably a VPFree member.

Hehe.

  Sometimes the best play is not the one with the best EV.
I am familiar with these machines and when I played there last,
I chose the fast one with a 4000 coin RF.

Me too. And I will stick with that one from now on.

I headed off to the Hard Rock because they had some good

promotional

stuff (50% more points, 6-pack coupons), good vp, and I wanted to
get room offers from them.

  I think I may have seen you. I saw a fairly young man

playing

quietly at the leftmost of the 3 machines on Monday afternoon.
I think you were there before I arrived and left maybe an hour

later.

I'm not sure if I ever was on the left most machine. I was there
probably from 2-4pm on the middle machine. When I arrived in the
evening around 8 I saw a man, late 20's it seemed, being pulled away
by a cell phone. Maybe that was you?

<<<
I also think this activity would be greatly improved if I
had a good video poker buddy to keep me company and, very
importantly, to split the big hands between us to greatly
reduce the risk.
>>>

  Lots of upside to partnerships. Also lots of
downside, since trusting the wrong person would be
a financial disaster.

This is true. The only person who I have seriously considered doing
this with is my best friend. I think a nice simple strategy of
spliting big hands (e.g. on FPDW: RF, Quad Deuces, maybe wild royals
and 5-kinds) between us would be easy to administer and reduce our
risk significantly.

I would consider doing this with other very trustworthy people but I
recognize there are pitfalls. If they decided to adjust their
strategy given that their royal only pays $500 and their deuces only
pay $125 they would maximize their return, reduce their variance,
and significantly lower my return. If they played slower than me
that would reduce my return. If they were not trustworthy and took
off with their big pay after I had split mine with them that would,
obviously, lower my return.

Any other strategies for team play you can think of?

  Nice report

    QZ

Thanks.
-Daniel

[Quad_Zilla]

I learned card counting around the age of 12

  Just curious, did the parents know, approve, teach?

(though I have since lost my skills) and familiarized myself with
the basics of advantage gambling: e.g. EV, bankroll, ROR, perfect
strategy. I read books like "Behind the Tables" and "Beat the
Dealer". I was familiar with such esoteric things as the Wong half
count in blackjack.

  In my pre-21 year old days, Vegas was not nearly so paranoid
about age. I looked about 16, but on several visits only got
carded once, and they accepted a university ID (with improper age)
I was strictly a table minimum BJ player then. Daddy worked for
the airline, so Las Vegas trips were free, except room, board, and
tuition. You are WAY further along the game than I was at that
age.

      With only an $800 trip stake, I think you should have
waited till the end of the trip for this one. Even deuces could
gobble up your bankroll if you ran bad.

I had $800 cash on me but I had access to more through ATMs if I
needed it.

  I see. Personally, I consider all money I am willing
to gamble to be my 'stake'. Of course, in my situation, I
would never be playing in a situation where I could run out
of available funds.

      This host is a moron. I bet you went somewhere else to
eat and you probably did not come back that day, if at all.
A new player who shows signs of giving action should be treated
well, even if the numbers are not quite right.

Very true. I went back to the Plaza for dinner at McDonalds and the
Plaza ended up winning more of my money on the Deuces. If he knew I
was an advantage player then he was making the correct decision.
However, since he most likely did not know this, he was making an
inexplicable business mistake.

  I intended that nuance to be implicit in my comment. Most
young males are young, dumb and full of.... ego. The host was
very unlikely to peg you as a semi-professional.

Yep. I felt suckered. I wonder how many realize that it really is
a sucker bet.

  I don't know. Probably not many. I have always had a
very good bullshit detector and I did have to mull it over a
bit before deciding to pass that one by. From what I infer
about you, I imagine you would have avoided the trap on a day
where you were a bit less overwhelmed. Most LV visitors are
a lot less intelligent and more naieve.

If people are willing to play slots anyway, I don't
think this gimmick would be much of a departure.

  Depends. If the games actually pay cash once in
awhile, then it might be close, but this whole thing feels
like a carnival type arrangement. Cash inners are probably
VERY rare.

      Actually, they have a very good deuces wild game that has
an unusual payscale. I believe the deuces pay 2000 coins. You
probably saw the short pay on the other hands and thought it was
a bad game.

I'm not sure if I ever was on the left most machine. I was there
probably from 2-4pm on the middle machine. When I arrived in the
evening around 8 I saw a man, late 20's it seemed, being pulled away
by a cell phone. Maybe that was you?

  Nope. I am one of the few full time VP players with
no cell phone.

<<<
I also think this activity would be greatly improved if I
had a good video poker buddy to keep me company and, very
importantly, to split the big hands between us to greatly
reduce the risk.
>>>

      Lots of upside to partnerships. Also lots of
downside, since trusting the wrong person would be
a financial disaster.

This is true. The only person who I have seriously considered doing
this with is my best friend. I think a nice simple strategy of
spliting big hands (e.g. on FPDW: RF, Quad Deuces, maybe wild royals
and 5-kinds) between us would be easy to administer and reduce our
risk significantly.

<<<
I would consider doing this with other very trustworthy people but I
recognize there are pitfalls. If they decided to adjust their
strategy given that their royal only pays $500 and their deuces only
pay $125 they would maximize their return, reduce their variance,
and significantly lower my return.

  Hmmm... Maybe, but if someone would do that, the pennies
they save doing so would be the least of your worries.

If they played slower than me that would reduce my return.

  I had not thought of this, but it is obviouly a concern.

Any other strategies for team play you can think of?

  I would not go the route you suggest. It's a lot
of work to track all this and determine an equitable
arrangement, especially since the total amount of play
for each person would have a large impact upon the
solution to the problem.

  I think I would also avoid having a single bankroll
to play from.

  Team efforts can also be extended to drawings and
so forth. I have been involved in such an arrangement
for several months. The most common drawing arrangement
is to have 2 or more people pool their tickets and
have one person fill them out and attend the drawings.
For that labor, that person gets the lions share of the
winnings and (for simplicity) assume tax liability if
applicable. I suggest having an agreement to give 'X'
percent to the teammates if the total win from a given
casino for the year is below $600 (i.e. below 1099
generation). If the total win for the year is above $600,
the the teammates get 75% of 'X' percent. This has
the effect of assuming a 25% tax burden on the total win.
That is probably not the right number, but its a decent
guess and personally, I don't see any point in working
out a more accurate number unless the winner is in
a high tax bracket, in which case the teammates probably
ought to get 66% of 'X' percent.

  Personally, If I were teamed with someone for playing
purposes, I'd probably handle it like this.

  1. Team bankrolling is only in effect for the time we are
together playing. This is entirely a trust issue. If trust
is absolute, then you can just report wins/losses and pay
each other to balance things out. Of course, the problem
of each player 'working' an equal amount is now a bit tricky,
even if both players are attempting to be totally honest.

  2. I would not sweat speed of play unless there was a
noticable discrepency.

  3. The win/loss would be combined. So, if I win 300
and you lose 200, our net win is 100, and I have to give
you 250, leaving us each with 50 win.

  4. If speed is an issue, the tracking of slot club
points should allow an equitable division of the win/loss to
be calculated quite accurately. However, I think it would
just be best to keep it simple and just partner with people
who play more or less the same coin in as you do.

  5. If tax forms are involved, this becomes a lot
messier, since you probably do not want to designate part
of the jackpot to an associate. Its smart from an accounting
standpoint, but is a huge red flag that identifies you as a
team player.

  QZ