vpFREE2 Forums

Multstrike 5-play?

I play the 9/6 JoB multistrike machines by the Shadow Bar in Caesars'
on every trip to LV. I have memorized the strategy and it has worked
out pretty well. I am trying to figure out just what a 5-play machine
looks like. If the traditional multistrike is 4-play?, does the 5-
play contain one more hand? How are the X-pay percentage different?
If this has been covered here or elsewhere, please point me to that
spot.

If Jean is excited about a game, then I know for sure that I will
like it, also.

Thanks for your help.

Marty

I play the 9/6 JoB multistrike machines by the Shadow Bar in

Caesars'

on every trip to LV. I have memorized the strategy and it has

worked

out pretty well. I am trying to figure out just what a 5-play

machine

looks like. If the traditional multistrike is 4-play?, does the 5-
play contain one more hand? How are the X-pay percentage

different?

If this has been covered here or elsewhere, please point me to

that

spot.

If Jean is excited about a game, then I know for sure that I will
like it, also.

OK. You get dealt five identical hands, each containing its own
multistrike tier. You draw the same amount of acrds to each hand;
the "survivors" advance to the 2X level, where a new hand is dealt;
you hold cards from those hands, and the surviving hands advance,
and so forth.

The scary nature of this gane is that you bet 100 TIMES the
denomination for each initial series of hands; that's %25 a pop ayt
the quarter level!! And the .25 level is the only one with decent
paytables, as far as I've seen.....

SO, if you can afford to play $25 a hand, go ahead...if you drop
down in denom, the short paytables will kill you.

The ghastly volatility coupled with the poor-to-bad paytables make
this game completely unplayable IMHO. This would be a lot of fun in
the nickel denom, but there you get crap like 7/5 JOB and 8/5 DB.

···

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "nshoreslim" <nshoreslim@a...> wrote:

<<The ghastly volatility coupled with the poor-to-bad paytables make
this game completely unplayable IMHO>>

I play a lot of $1 Five Play and I wouldn't think of taking a session bankroll of less than $5000. Same $25 a hand bet on MS 5-Play, so far, in my experience, you could play a long time on $1000! Very low volatility!!!!

···

________________________________________
Jean $¢ott - Go to http://www.FrugalGambler.biz
  for VP software and strategy cards and for the
  Frugal series of books.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Jean Scott wrote:

I play a lot of $1 Five Play and I wouldn't think of taking a session
bankroll of less than $5000. Same $25 a hand bet on MS 5-Play, so
far, in my experience, you could play a long time on $1000! Very low
volatility!!!!

I haven't seen this game, but if it operates as "rock" suggests and
there are five independent deals to begin with, then the variance for
this game would be no different than for standard MultiStrike --
you're simply playing 5 independent games at a time vs. 5 games
sequentially in the standard game.

This differs markedly from more typical 5-play, where all resultant
hands are dependent upon one single initial dealt hand.

The overall variance of $1 5-play MultiStrike should be only modestly
higher than single line $1 play (as is the case with standard $1 MS).

- Harry

In my reading, you are given 5 IDENTICAL hands, originally.

Again, in my reading, you THEN have 5 independent plays (but they
all start from the same hand).

Anyone have clarification information, who have actually seen and
played them?

Thanks!

.....bl

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "Harry Porter" <harry.porter@v...>
wrote:

···

I haven't seen this game, but if it operates as "rock" suggests and
there are five independent deals to begin with
- Harry

bornloser1537 wrote:

In my reading, you are given 5 IDENTICAL hands, originally.

That jives with my recollection now that you write it, bl. The play
doesn't really make sense otherwise.

In this case, the game is far more volatile. In fact, Jean, it
strongly seems to me that your play experience (more than one
session?) was extraordinarily smooth vs. expectation.

All things considered, I fully expect 5-play $.25 MS to be as volatile
as $1 5-play. Off the top of my head I can't conceive why it wouldn't
be, although it certainly bears greater thought. I don't see any
reason that 5-play MS would disperse risk to a greater extent than
5-play $1. And as I previously noted, standard MS has modestly
greater variance than single play at the same total wager.

- Harry

We just played it again last night for a half hour - we were playing two machines and put in $500 total, divided between the two, because we were only playing a short time. We almost lost the $500 when we hit several bigger hands and got back even and a little winner and quit because of time constraints.

There are just SO many ways to hit intermediate jackpots. Again, we may have had "good luck" for these two sessions - certainly we need more "research." But I am guessing the 5 hands smooth out the ride a lot.

Remember this is $25 per hand, even though it is a "quarter" machine. Many quarter players have only $100-$200 for a session bankroll. That would NOT be enough to even "get started" - not even $500. This is a game for someone who has enough bankroll for $1 Five Play. We usually have $10,000 for a session bankroll to play that - I would say $5000 would get you by most of the time - but certainly not all the time.

There is no lock in gambling for the short term. But I think we could play 5-play quarter MS almost "forever" on a $5000 session bankroll and not go broke nearly as fast as on $1 Five Play. (Remember we are using the modified MS strategy - don't try this with regular JoB strategy.)

···

________________________________________
Jean $¢ott - Go to http://www.FrugalGambler.biz
  for VP software and strategy cards and for the
  Frugal series of books.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Jean Scott wrote:

There are just SO many ways to hit intermediate jackpots. Again, we
may have had "good luck" for these two sessions - certainly we need
more "research." But I am guessing the 5 hands smooth out the ride
a lot.

Playing 5 hands does smooth things out quite a bit, but I fully expect
no more so than 5-play $1 smooths things out vs. single play $5.

This is a game for someone who has enough bankroll for $1 Five Play.

That's something that I fully agree with.

There is no lock in gambling for the short term. But I think we
could play 5-play quarter MS almost "forever" on a $5000 session
bankroll and not go broke nearly as fast as on $1 Five Play.
(Remember we are using the modified MS strategy - don't try this
with regular JoB strategy.)

The rough math suggests otherwise. As you note, however, optimized MS
ER is higher than standard play and that will make a difference in
expected loss rate -- significantly so over the longer term. However,
in between royals the difference is relatively small and I wouldn't
expect it to make a readily distinguishable difference in session results.

- Harry

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "Jean Scott" <QueenofComps@f...>
wrote:

I play a lot of $1 Five Play and I wouldn't think of taking a

session bankroll of less than $5000. Same $25 a hand bet on MS 5-
Play, so far, in my experience, you could play a long time on
$1000! Very low volatility!!!!

Jean, I think you've been lucky so far not to run into thise ghastly
dead streaks that also characterize single-line MS. You can have a
run of ten terrible hands with no survivors, or one survivor, and
suddenly you're down $200. Poof, just like that. I've lost $2000
twice in one-hour sessions! So MUCH depends on the quality of the
initial dealt hand; getting dealt something like 2479J kills about
sixteen of your twenty bets, right there.
Another factor is that the "Free Rides" quite often aren't that
helpful. Sometimes they occur on a single-survivor line. Sometimes
they occur on a hand that's already a winner. Also, just because you
have a free ride in operation doesn't mean you won't lose money on
those bets.
Another thing I've noticed is that the Free Ride frequency is FAR,
FAR LESS than on single-line. I counted forty hands before my first
free ride when I was playing Ugly Ducks 5XMS at the Fiesta. As you
know, Free Rides are the only thing that compensates for bad
paytables. Every game I've seen on these things is 99% or worse, and
that's at the .25 level; go down to dimes or nickels and it's more
like 97%.
I would reiterate my warning for everyone to STAY THE HELL AWAY from
this game. It's addictive, frustrating, and INSANELY EXPENSIVE (as
well as being a losing proposition). This game compares to regular
VP as parachuteless nude skydiving compares to shuffleboard.

<<Jean, I think you've been lucky so far not to run into these ghastly
dead streaks that also characterize single-line MS.>>

We HAVE had bad streaks at $1 Single Line MS (JoB). One weekend at Caesars we lost over $10,000. You just MUST have a very large bankroll - financial AND psychological!!!!

···

________________________________________
Jean $¢ott - Go to http://www.FrugalGambler.biz
  for VP software and strategy cards and for the
  Frugal series of books.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

The only way multiplay reduces relative volatility in any game is
when you divide the same total amount bet over a greater number of
hands e.g. 5-play $1 would be less volatile than $5 single line,
where you are betting the same $25 total per play. 5 play $1 is not
less volatile than single play $1 for a given total dollar amount
bet. 5-play would actually be more volatile since it is the same as
playing single line, but getting dealt the exact same hand 5 times in
a row.

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "Harry Porter" <harry.porter@v...>
wrote:

Jean Scott wrote:
> I play a lot of $1 Five Play and I wouldn't think of taking a

session

> bankroll of less than $5000. Same $25 a hand bet on MS 5-Play,

so

> far, in my experience, you could play a long time on $1000! Very

low

> volatility!!!!

I haven't seen this game, but if it operates as "rock" suggests and
there are five independent deals to begin with, then the variance

for

this game would be no different than for standard MultiStrike --
you're simply playing 5 independent games at a time vs. 5 games
sequentially in the standard game.

This differs markedly from more typical 5-play, where all resultant
hands are dependent upon one single initial dealt hand.

The overall variance of $1 5-play MultiStrike should be only

modestly

higher than single line $1 play (as is the case with standard $1

MS).

···

- Harry

I play the 9/6 JoB multistrike machines by the Shadow Bar in

Caesars'

on every trip to LV. I have memorized the strategy and it has

worked

out pretty well. I am trying to figure out just what a 5-play

machine

looks like. If the traditional multistrike is 4-play?, does the 5-
play contain one more hand? How are the X-pay percentage

different?

If this has been covered here or elsewhere, please point me to that
spot.

In typical Multistrike, you wager 20 coins per round. In 5-play
multistrike you wager 20 coins X 5 hands = 100 coins! Even though
you're wagering $5 at the "nickel" level, it it very difficult to
find 9/6 JOB machines. I envy you!

···

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "nshoreslim" <nshoreslim@a...> wrote:

Jean,
Where is the best place to get the proper 5-play MS
strategy?
REB

···

--- Jean Scott <QueenofComps@frugalgambler.biz> wrote:

<<The ghastly volatility coupled with the
poor-to-bad paytables make
this game completely unplayable IMHO>>

I play a lot of $1 Five Play and I wouldn't think of
taking a session bankroll of less than $5000. Same
$25 a hand bet on MS 5-Play, so far, in my
experience, you could play a long time on $1000!
Very low volatility!!!!
________________________________________
Jean $�ott - Go to http://www.FrugalGambler.biz
  for VP software and strategy cards and for the
  Frugal series of books.

[Non-text portions of this message have been
removed]

<<Jean,
Where is the best place to get the proper 5-play MS
strategy?

I just went to the Web site below for the first time and discovered they have a great "Link" page, which includes many articles written about the game and other Web sites to consult. Some of these contain actual strategies for specific games and the link to my 3-part series in Frugal Fridays tells you how to make one yourself, using software programs like WinPoker, Strategy Master, and Frugal Video Poker

http://www.multistrikepoker.com/msp_shockwave.htm

···

________________________________________
Jean $�ott - Go to http://www.FrugalGambler.biz
  for VP software and strategy cards and for the
  Frugal series of books.

Richard Boozer wrote:

Where is the best place to get the proper 5-play MS
strategy?

Just to ensure it's clear ... 5-play MS strategy doesn't differ from
standard MS strategy (in the same way that most other multiline play
strategy is identical to single line).

Jean's link will get you to the appropriate discussion of MS strategy.

- H.

I wrote concerning Jean Scott's MS 5-play results:

All things considered, I fully expect 5-play $.25 MS to be as
volatile as $1 5-play. Off the top of my head I can't conceive why
it wouldn't be, although it certainly bears greater thought. I
don't see any reason that 5-play MS would disperse risk to a greater
extent than 5-play $1. And as I previously noted, standard MS has
modestly greater variance than single play at the same total wager.

This statement was prompted by Jean's report that in her $.25 MS
5-play to date she'd encountered far smoother results than in her $1
standard play. This ran counter to my initial assessment of MS 5-play
and I considered whether this may simply reflect short-term results or
if I had overlooked some component of variance in my cursory review of
the game.

In short, I'm now asserting that Jean's results very likely reflect
the nature of 5-play MS and that it takes a considerably smaller
bankroll to play than a comparable wager on standard 5-play (as in
Jean's case - $.25 MS 5-play vs. $1 std 5-play).

If you're interested in an more extended, moderately technical
explanation of relative contributions to variance, you may care to
peruse what follows:

···

------------

My initial off-the-cuff observation in the post above reflected an
assessment that:

-- Dispersion of risk in 5-play vs. single, as a consequence of the
wager being spread over numerous hands, would be comparable between
standard vp and MS.

-- The variance calculation of each hand of 5-play MS would be
identical to that of single play MS and wouldn't contribute to any
variance reduction.

-- In absence of any factor that would reduce 5-play MS variance vs.
single play MS, the modestly increased variance of single line MS vs.
single line std. vp would carry over to 5-play of each.

In retrospect, I've overlooked a key difference related to covariance
-- the fact that in single line play each resulting hand of one deal
is related to another by the initial hold.

Multiplay covariance skews individual hand results on the draw so that
all multiplay hands tend toward a result as strong as the initial hold
rather than being independent of each other -- a factor that serves in
increase variance. (Get several strong holds in a row and you end up
with an extended string of strong final hands.)

I initially glossed over the covariance factor of MS 5-play vs.
standard 5-play and assumed that it was comparable -- a glaring
oversight as it turns out. It now occurs to me that as you play up
each level, you're playing fewer and fewer hands (as hands drop out
due to missed wins & free rides). This means that fewer of the hands
played on the upper levels are related to other played hands, thus
reducing the covariance factor.

------

To illustrate the significance of this, imagine a standard 5-play game
which is constructed with no covariance at all. Now, we're talking
about a trivial game -- this would mean that the result of each line
of multiplay would be unrelated to another, something that could be
the case only if each line was dealt separately rather than originaing
with a single dealt hand for which a unique draw was performed to form
the final hands.

The point is that the element of covariance in standard multiplay is
the only contributor of increased variance in multiplay. In absence
of this, multiplay would have the same bankroll requirement of single
play at the same denomination, rather than being higher. (.25 3-play
has a higher bankroll requirement than $.25 single play strictly as a
consequence of covariance, not the fact that you wager more per play)

Thus, as the nature of MS reduces the role of covariance in
determining total variance, the expected swings in play are reduced.
And the covariance factor drops off very quickly. On average, you
only expect to play half the hands on the 2nd level that you've played
on the first, and that relationship continues up each level.

So, I can readily see where covariance for MS multiplay could be much
smaller than standard vp multiplay. And as noted above, as covariance
approaches 0, overall variance at a given denomination approaches
single line variance at the same denomination (I've strayed from
expressing variance in terms of total wager, but I think the point is
better made this way).

--> In other words, it may well be that you need only a moderately
greater bankroll to play 5-play $.25 than you need for single play $.25.

I don't have the statistical background to calculate MS multiplay
variance (it doesn't lend itself to the brute force method I've used
for single play MS). Perhaps Jazbo Burns will take it up at some
point. (He provides a comprehensive discussion of standard vp
multiplay variance and bankroll requirements at:
http://jazbo.com/videopoker/nplay.html

- Harry

Some practical comments:

I've considered MS to largely be a novelty play thus far. While it
has a higher return for a given game, it has a higher bankroll
requirement than a comparable single line wager (e.g. $.25 MS vs. $1
single line) and reduces plays per hour appreciably due to the game
structure.

The latter consideration may seem minor, but in a positive play
situation (whether cash or with comps considered), the reduced coin-in
per hour can be very undesirable.

However, the potential boost in coin-in with multiplay MS, having a
bankroll requirement that quite possibly is only moderately larger
than single play MS, leads to play that can considerably reduce the
time required to achieve a given amount of coin-in or make possible a
much higher rating than otherwise achievable on your current bankroll.

Aside from these attractions, it potentially puts 5-play excitement
within reach of the single play MS player without necessarily dropping
in denomination or number of lines played. (Although there's little
doubt it'll be a rougher ride, it's nothing like the move up from
single line standard vp to 5-play at the same denom).

There's cause for caution in initially approaching 5-play MS. It
still requires a larger banroll, but nowhere the increase that a move
from $1 single to $1 5-play requires. I'll note that at only 1 or 2
lines the ride (and bankroll requirement) is going to be considerably
rougher than 1 or 2 lines played in single play MS -- the covariance
factor previously discussed is moderated only when all 4 lines are
played.

But I'm VERY excited at the prospect of play -- mind you, provided I
can muster the considerable strategy agility that 5-play MS requires,
even over single line MS, to avoid a potentially serious ER hit.

- Harry

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "Harry Porter" <harry.porter@v...>

Some practical comments:

But I'm VERY excited at the prospect of play -- mind you, provided I
can muster the considerable strategy agility that 5-play MS

requires,

even over single line MS, to avoid a potentially serious ER hit.

- Harry

Are you saying strategy for 5play MS would be different than
traditional MS?

I wrote:

>
> mind you, provided I can muster the considerable straegy agility
> that 5-play MS requires, even over single line MS, to avoid a
> potentially serious ER hit.

hockeystl replied:

Are you saying strategy for 5play MS would be different than
traditional MS?

Not at all ... But I'll retract the statement all the same.

At that moment I was simply daunted by the prospect of advancing
individually on 5 separate hands and the fact that optimal strategy
varies for each level.

However, you're still only handling one dealt hand for each level so
you're not talking about applying strategy in any different fashion.
Chalk it up to only conceptually working with the game at present.
Jean's clearly the one to give the "hands on" report :wink:

- Harry

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "Harry Porter" <harry.porter@v...>
wrote:

(.25 3-play
has a higher bankroll requirement than $.25 single play strictly as

a

consequence of covariance, not the fact that you wager more per

play)

that's incorrect
for the same total wager, multiplays have lower bankroll requirements
multiplays lower the variance of the draw, dealt variance remains
unchanged