vpFREE2 Forums

Multiline flush anomalies, and other strangeness

This is a truncated version of a post I wrote a few days ago that
somehow got obliterated by the board's server.

The anomaly regarding multiline flush draws: This is the collected
data from six players over a course of approximately 14 months in
the years 2001-2002. Almost all play was .25 3/5 line 10/7 DB, or
Super Aces.
With a sample size that reached 1.4 million draws (at which point we
felt we had reached a decent level of confidence), we had the
following results: flushes were filled at a rate of 1 in 6.1. This
is considerably worse than the mathematical odds of 1 in 5.2. We
calculated that this alone cost the player something like 1.7% of
his EV.

The really interesting (if that's the word) aspect of this is how
CONSTANT the ratio remained as our sample size grew. The first
collation of data stopped at 200,000 hands, at which time the
completion ratio was...1 in 6.1. It pretty much stayed there, never
dropping below 6.0 or rising above 6.2. This bothers me a LOT more
than if the results had been all over the map. The constancy of the
results suggests intervention in mid-draw, for instance if the
processor was "told" to underweight cards that would complete the
flush. This is contrary to what we "know", that the machine deals
ten cards when the initial bet is made. I see no reason why the
program couldn't stop after five cards, examine the resulting hand,
and then assign different values to the remaining 47 undealt cards.

We also found that draws to three of a kind were anomalous, not so
much in completing 4-of-kinds (although these were somewhat
below "par"), but in the number of full houses drawn. In this case
we felt our sample size, 200,000 hands, was too small to draw a
conclusion. (The trouble was, it's 51 to 1 against getting dealt
trips, so we couldn't collect much data.) For what it's worth,
though, we completed quads at a rate of 27 to 1 (nominal: 22.5/1)
and hit the full houses a horrifying 1 in 18 times (instead of the
nominal 1 in 15.3).

Kevin and I and two other individuals have now drawn to four-to-a-
royal 435 times since we started keeping track. Kevin missed 127 in
a row, hit one, then missed his next 150 before hitting another one.
The rest of us have missed EVERY SINGLE ONE. A priori odds: 46 to 1.
We "should" have hit NINE royals....not TWO.

The collective results of fifteen people who all play at a
professional level (although differing amounts of play) for 2003: of
fifteen players polled, twelve report a losing year, eight of whom
report a loss of over 1% of their total action (disregarding noncash
comps). In the five previous years, no more than one of these
players in any given year, booked a loser for that year.

Over the course of four months, six expert local players lost
$23,000 playing fourplay Odyssey Lucky Draw fullpay Deuces Wild
(100.7%, ha).

These are just some of the "strange" goings-on that we have
observed. To answer a question many have asked, BTW, why would the
casinos gaff fullpay machines, why wouldn't they just reduce the
paytables? Well, you can have your cake and eat it too: you can
continue to shout from the rooftops that you have "FULL PAY VIDEO
POKER", while actually returning 98% or less. The downside of this
policy, having your casino shut down due to nonrandom machines, HAS
NEVER HAPPENED and WILL NEVER HAPPEN, DESPITE the fact that casinos
have been caught with nonrandom slots on their floor over thirty
times in Gaming Control Board Enforcement history. None of those
casinos lost their license, and were subjected to no discipline or
to a slap on the wrist at most.

What conclusion should we draw? It's hard to say.

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "rockofjello333" <rockofjello333@y...>
wrote:

The anomaly regarding multiline flush draws: This is the collected
data from six players over a course of approximately 14 months in
the years 2001-2002. Almost all play was .25 3/5 line 10/7 DB, or
Super Aces.
With a sample size that reached 1.4 million draws (at which point

we

felt we had reached a decent level of confidence), we had the
following results: flushes were filled at a rate of 1 in 6.1. This
is considerably worse than the mathematical odds of 1 in 5.2. We
calculated that this alone cost the player something like 1.7% of
his EV.

these are 1 card flush draws? (in which case 5.2 (47/9) is the correct
cycle)
1.4million/5.2=269,231 cycles
standard deviation=sqrt(269,231)=519
you got 1.4million/6.1=229,508 hits
deviation from mean=269,231-229,508=39,723
39,723/519=77 standard deviations
that's statistically impossible for a random draw (9/47)
did you take it to the gaming review board?
who was the machine manufacturer?
what casino?

i just realized i made an error in my calculation
1.4 million draws, but how many were flush draws?
i can assume you had about equal play on 3 and 5 plays, which would
give 1.4million/4=350,000 dealt hands
the dealt 4 card flush cycle is about 30, so 11,667 one card flush
draws
11,667/5.2=2,244 cycles
standard deviation=sqrt(2,244)=47
you got 11,667/6.1= 1,913 hits
deviation from mean=2,244-1,913=331
331/47=7 standard deviations
that's still ridiculous, i don't remember what 7 standard deviations
is, you could look it up somewhere, but it's beyond 0.00000001%

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "nightoftheiguana2000"
<nightoftheiguana2000@y...> wrote:

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "rockofjello333"

<rockofjello333@y...>

wrote:
> The anomaly regarding multiline flush draws: This is the

collected

> data from six players over a course of approximately 14 months in
> the years 2001-2002. Almost all play was .25 3/5 line 10/7 DB, or
> Super Aces.
> With a sample size that reached 1.4 million draws (at which point
we
> felt we had reached a decent level of confidence), we had the
> following results: flushes were filled at a rate of 1 in 6.1.

This

> is considerably worse than the mathematical odds of 1 in 5.2. We
> calculated that this alone cost the player something like 1.7% of
> his EV.

these are 1 card flush draws? (in which case 5.2 (47/9) is the

correct

···

cycle)
1.4million/5.2=269,231 cycles
standard deviation=sqrt(269,231)=519
you got 1.4million/6.1=229,508 hits
deviation from mean=269,231-229,508=39,723
39,723/519=77 standard deviations
that's statistically impossible for a random draw (9/47)
did you take it to the gaming review board?
who was the machine manufacturer?
what casino?

The flush draws were exclusively on IGT Triple Play machines, IGT
Five Play machines, or IGT Triple Play/Five Play machines.

I'm sorry, I don't recall the actual number of fourflushes drawn to;
these would have been less than the number dealt because of the
number of said deals leading to an alternate play other than drawing
to the flush (such as KKxxx).

And yes, if these were random results, then we beat several-billion-
to-one odds.

We didn't feel that "alerting the authorities" was anything but
futile, because we had no way of corroborating our results.
Moreover, the Gaming Control Board ("Fox In Charge of the Henhouse")
is such a casino lapdog, that even if we had several hours of
videotape showing a slot mechanic moving from machine to machine,
entering a key sequence that resulted in the message flashing on
each screen for five seconds, "CHEAT MODE ENABLED", we wouldn't have
been listened to. In fact, we probably would have been arrested on
some pretext and the tspe "lost".

Again, I present these data upon request and leave it for people to
draw whatever conclusions they want from it. For what it's worth, we
no longer play IGT multiline machines, except in rare circumstances.

What conclusion should we draw? It's hard to say.

Just one anecdote along this general line.
About a year ago I played a session of 6-8 hours in a La. casino on a
$.05 100-play machine playing either 25, 50 or 100 hands at a time of
either 9/6 JOB or 16/10 NSUD's. I play these games quite accurately,
and when playing multi-line, I always check my cheat sheet if I have
any doubt at all of the correct hold. I routinely practice 30-minutes
a night, seven nights a week, on my handheld while getting in my
exercise on my stationary bike. (It helps the time pass). I kept no
records as to the number of hands I played or what I hit on any
particular draw. The machine was fast, but I play slowly when I am
playing multi-line to try to eliminate all errors. The only data that
I have is that I lost $2100 in this session. I don't know the
statiscal significance of this session, but I know that the practical
significance to me was that I haven't been back to that particular
casino. To be fair, at one time there was a $1 AA machine paying
1.33% CB for seniors in the same casino that I nailed for a bunch of
money over a period of about a year playing one day a week. Alas this
machine was taken out and the CB was reduced. Just as an aside, La.
law doesn't allow any machines that payback over 100% with perfect
play. The casino obviously didn't know what they had.

Ozymandias

Nice job of research, not! First, every GameKing (and every triple play is
on a GameKing platform) deals 5 cards initially. And then select the draw
cards when the draw button is pressed. This is a fact, verified by IGT.
Second, Gaming tests the machines by running millions of simulations
through the chip (not a mere 1.4 million) and seeing that the results match
expectations within a confidence level.

Your fantasy that IGT gaffs the machines in cahoots with every casino
operator and at least 100 regulatory authorities worldwide is about as
realistic as your friend Kevin's "discovery" that machines go into pity
mode when you are low on funds to keep you playing.

Please verify all those incidents of casinos gaffing machines (I assume you
do not include the times the manufacturer made a mistake and the machines
were shut down while the chips were replaced.)

I love misinformation and you and Kevin are about as good at it as anyone
around. Please keep up the good work.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

···

At 10:43 PM 09/10/2004, you wrote:

This is contrary to what we "know", that the machine deals
ten cards when the initial bet is made. I see no reason why the
program couldn't stop after five cards, examine the resulting hand,
and then assign different values to the remaining 47 undealt cards.

>This is contrary to what we "know", that the machine deals
>ten cards when the initial bet is made. I see no reason why the
>program couldn't stop after five cards, examine the resulting

hand,

>and then assign different values to the remaining 47 undealt

cards.

Nice job of research, not! First, every GameKing (and every triple

play is on a GameKing platform) deals 5 cards initially. And then
select the draw cards when the draw button is pressed. This is a
fact, verified by IGT.

Without bothering to argue the point about how the cards were dealt
on these OLDER (manufactured in 2000) machines, couldn't the pause
for evaluation happen when the draw button was pressed?

Second, Gaming tests the machines by running millions of
simulations through the chip (not a mere 1.4 million) and seeing
that the results match expectations within a confidence level.

Heh. This is where you just don't get it. Gaming tests A SAMPLE
MACHINE SUPPLIED TO IT BY IGT. It doesn't test EVERY machine (quite
obviously). And it NEVER pulls a machine off the floor of an
operating casino without notice or warning, to perform the same
rigorous tests on it. NEVER.

Your fantasy that IGT gaffs the machines in cahoots with every

casino

If it's a "fantasy", oh sarcastic one, then it's something I want to
happen. Not so. The truth is, in the promotional literature that IGT
sends to casinos, they have promised a 97-98% return (or a
house "hold" of 2-3%) on machines that return 100% (or more) with
optimal play. Is that because they 1) are wrong about their own
machines 2) are lying about their own machines 3) EV tables and
Frugal Fantasia notwithstanding, these machines actually DO hold 3%?

operator and at least 100 regulatory authorities worldwide is

about as realistic as your friend Kevin's "discovery" that machines
go into pity mode when you are low on funds to keep you playing.

That was tongue in cheek, as I guess I need to point out.

Please verify all those incidents of casinos gaffing machines (I

assume you do not include the times the manufacturer made a mistake
and the machines were shut down while the chips were replaced.)

If I bothered, you still wouldn't believe me as your preconceived
notions are firmly cemented in place. Fine; it's people like you
that keep them neon lights lit.

I love misinformation and you and Kevin are about as good at it as

anyone around. Please keep up the good work.

But we appear to have failed to pull the wool over YOUR eyes, oh,
guardian of truth. Could it be that you're just smarter than the
rest of us? If so, why aren't you working on an AIDS vaccine or a
cure for world hunger or something? This board and its nonbelievers
are obviously beneath you.

···

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, Bill Coleman <vphobby@c...> wrote:

At 10:43 PM 09/10/2004, you wrote:

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "rockofjello333"
<rockofjello333@y...> wrote:

Not so. The truth is, in the promotional literature that IGT
sends to casinos, they have promised a 97-98% return (or a
house "hold" of 2-3%) on machines that return 100% (or more) with
optimal play. Is that because they 1) are wrong about their own
machines 2) are lying about their own machines 3) EV tables and
Frugal Fantasia notwithstanding, these machines actually DO hold

3%?

>===============================================================

1. Did you PERSONALLY READ this promotional literature?

       2. If you did actually see that a "house-hold" of 2-3%, was
PROMISED by IGT, (LONG-TERM, of course!!) don't you think it's
possible they are taking into account all of the tourists, drunks
and local idiots, who are totally clueless about vp?
       3. Why would you assume that they are referring to advantage
players also being subject to the 2-3% hold?
I would welcome your comments.

I have read the GameKing literature given to the casinos. Here is a sample.
Jacks or Better 1-2-3-4-6-9-25-50
% Range: 95.5 - 97.5%
Optimum: 99.5%
Hit Frequency: 45.5%

Double Bonus 1-1-3-5-7-10-50-80-160-50
% Range: 96.2 - 98.2%
Optimum: 100.2%
Hit Frequency: 43.3%

I interpret this to mean that a casino can expect to pay out the "% Range"
but with "Optimum" play they can pay out the optimum %.

5-card

>===============================================================

1. Did you PERSONALLY READ this promotional literature?

       2. If you did actually see that a "house-hold" of 2-3%, was PROMISED
by IGT, (LONG-TERM, of course!!) don't you think it's possible they are
taking into account all of the tourists, drunks and local idiots, who are
totally clueless about vp?
       3. Why would you assume that they are referring to advantage players
also being subject to the 2-3% hold?
I would welcome your comments.

>>>>>> 1. Did you PERSONALLY READ this promotional literature?

No, it was given to my invisible evil twin by aliens from the planet
Dweemo who had been looting casino offices in search of Twinkies,
which due to overhunting and loss of habitat had become extinct on
their home planet.

       2. If you did actually see that a "house-hold" of 2-3%, was
PROMISED by IGT, (LONG-TERM, of course!!) don't you think it's
possible they are taking into account all of the tourists, drunks
and local idiots, who are totally clueless about vp?

If so, how could they guarantee that a sufficient proportion of
idiots would play their machines so as to produce the desired hold?
And would they say, "Skilled players can actually play this machine
at an advantage", and hope to sell a single one?
How about using a liberal paytable as a come-on, with the
understanding (stated face to face, or tacit) that the best a
skilled player could IN REALITY do is hold his losses to 2%?

       3. Why would you assume that they are referring to

advantage players also being subject to the 2-3% hold?

I don't assume that--in fact I think they would be best served by
never admitting that such a creature as an advantage player exists.

You have to realize that IGT also markets slot machines, which can
be set to a predetermined, fixed payout percentage. In marketing to
casino managers, it was best for them to pretend that VP is the same
sort of game as slots, that skill is irrelevant to the long-term
outcome.

I can't think of any other reason, other than the scenario I cite
above, why the casinos installed thousands of fullpay VP machines
long after it was common knowledge that they could be beaten. Maybe
they never were actually vulnerable at all.

I also think that our (the advantage VP community) smug assureance
that clueless dweebs playing "our" machines (during intervals when
we're home counting our loot) account for enough losses to offset
our activities and make the machines profitable for the casino, may
be in error. In reality, even the dumdums around here don't play
THAT badly.

Kevin (it's obvious you are), please have another hissy-fit. But before you
do, since the advantage perfect play gives is razor thin and takes much
study to master most of us do not play perfectly. The maximum theoretical
return is simply that, no one actually plays that well.

I am net positive over the 2 1/2 years I have lived here as are a number of
people. I make a small profit each year on a lot of play, I would probably
make more spending those same hours working at McDonalds. But it would be
less fun.

The fact that you are obviously a net loser implies that your skills do not
match your perception of your skills. Since you feel better about yourself
if you see a conspiracy please feel free. However, I will filter your
future posts to my trash bin.

Regards,

Bill

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

···

At 04:41 PM 09/11/2004, you wrote:

You have to realize that IGT also markets slot machines, which can
be set to a predetermined, fixed payout percentage. In marketing to
casino managers, it was best for them to pretend that VP is the same
sort of game as slots, that skill is irrelevant to the long-term
outcome.

I can't think of any other reason, other than the scenario I cite
above, why the casinos installed thousands of fullpay VP machines
long after it was common knowledge that they could be beaten. Maybe
they never were actually vulnerable at all.

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "rockofjello333"
<rockofjello333@y...> wrote:

> >>>>>> 1. Did you PERSONALLY READ this promotional literature?

No, it was given to my invisible evil twin by aliens from the

planet

···

Dweemo who had been looting casino offices in search of Twinkies,
which due to overhunting and loss of habitat had become extinct on
their home planet.

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

  Now that I understand that you are really an alien from the
planet, Dweemo (I don't believe you really have an evil twin!) I an
better able to make sense of your posts.

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

> 2. ...snip.... don't you think it's
> possible they are taking into account all of the tourists,

drunks

> and local idiots, who are totally clueless about vp?
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

If so, how could they guarantee that a sufficient proportion of

idiots would play their machines so as to produce the desired

hold?
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Because they are well aware that the vast majority of people who
play vp, don't have a clue as to what they're doing. They KNOW they
will get higher percentage of their money than 2-3%, to make up for
minority of players who have some idea of how to play. And even
players who know the strategy cold, get tired, drink too much, play
too long and play "hunches" from time to time.

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

And would they say, "Skilled players can actually play this

machine

at an advantage", and hope to sell a single one?

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

That's exactly what they do say, when they hang a sign over the
computer stating "100% payback with full coin and optimum play".

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
> 3. Why would you assume that they are referring to
advantage players also being subject to the 2-3% hold?

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
I can't think of any other reason, other than the scenario I cite
above, why the casinos installed thousands of fullpay VP machines
long after it was common knowledge that they could be beaten.

Maybe

they never were actually vulnerable at all.
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Have you been on a very long losing streak?

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

I also think that our (the advantage VP community) smug assureance
that clueless dweebs playing "our" machines (during intervals when
we're home counting our loot) account for enough losses to offset
our activities and make the machines profitable for the casino,

may

be in error. In reality, even the dumdums around here don't play
THAT badly.

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++==

You must be watching different dumdums than I am.

Anyway, it's interesting chatting with you. I wish you nothing but
the best in your future vp adventures
Babe

Bill, I've only been a member a few months. Who the heck is
Kevin.....and what did he do to be held in such distain?

···

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, Bill Coleman <vphobby@c...> wrote:

At 04:41 PM 09/11/2004, you wrote:

Kevin (it's obvious you are), please have another hissy-fit.

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Have you considered the fact that almost everyone makes playing
mistakes which account for the discrepancy.
I personally know "professional" players who do not know the strategy
difference between FPDW and NSUD.
The average perrson knows next to nothing re: proper starategy. This
can be easily observed when someone constantly shifts from game to
game when on a machine that offers many games ranging from NSUD to
super aces (7/5). People are ignorant of proper strategy and that
must cost the "up to" 4% that is shown.

···

On Sat, 11 Sep 2004 17:30:14 -0500, you wrote:

I have read the GameKing literature given to the casinos. Here is a sample.
Jacks or Better 1-2-3-4-6-9-25-50
% Range: 95.5 - 97.5%
Optimum: 99.5%
Hit Frequency: 45.5%

Double Bonus 1-1-3-5-7-10-50-80-160-50
% Range: 96.2 - 98.2%
Optimum: 100.2%
Hit Frequency: 43.3%

I interpret this to mean that a casino can expect to pay out the "% Range"
but with "Optimum" play they can pay out the optimum %.

5-card

>===============================================================

1. Did you PERSONALLY READ this promotional literature?

      2. If you did actually see that a "house-hold" of 2-3%, was PROMISED
by IGT, (LONG-TERM, of course!!) don't you think it's possible they are
taking into account all of the tourists, drunks and local idiots, who are
totally clueless about vp?
      3. Why would you assume that they are referring to advantage players
also being subject to the 2-3% hold?
I would welcome your comments.

vpFREE Links: http://members.cox.net/vpfree/Links.htm

Yahoo! Groups Links

You use the term "advantage" players. Have you not read all of the
posts of the C2, C3, C4, etc of the Las Vegas Hilton. Granted that
they have some 100%+ 25c machines but you do NOT reach the exalted
levels playing quarters.
We also have posts by individuals getting many comps from Bellagio,
Mandalay Bay, and the like. There is NOTHING of an advantege there.
These are the people on this board. Think of the millions who play
only because the machine has pretty lights, nice sounds, etc.

···

On Sat, 11 Sep 2004 23:41:40 -0000, you wrote:

>>>>>> 1. Did you PERSONALLY READ this promotional literature?

No, it was given to my invisible evil twin by aliens from the planet
Dweemo who had been looting casino offices in search of Twinkies,
which due to overhunting and loss of habitat had become extinct on
their home planet.

       2. If you did actually see that a "house-hold" of 2-3%, was
PROMISED by IGT, (LONG-TERM, of course!!) don't you think it's
possible they are taking into account all of the tourists, drunks
and local idiots, who are totally clueless about vp?

If so, how could they guarantee that a sufficient proportion of
idiots would play their machines so as to produce the desired hold?
And would they say, "Skilled players can actually play this machine
at an advantage", and hope to sell a single one?
How about using a liberal paytable as a come-on, with the
understanding (stated face to face, or tacit) that the best a
skilled player could IN REALITY do is hold his losses to 2%?

       3. Why would you assume that they are referring to

advantage players also being subject to the 2-3% hold?

I don't assume that--in fact I think they would be best served by
never admitting that such a creature as an advantage player exists.

You have to realize that IGT also markets slot machines, which can
be set to a predetermined, fixed payout percentage. In marketing to
casino managers, it was best for them to pretend that VP is the same
sort of game as slots, that skill is irrelevant to the long-term
outcome.

I can't think of any other reason, other than the scenario I cite
above, why the casinos installed thousands of fullpay VP machines
long after it was common knowledge that they could be beaten. Maybe
they never were actually vulnerable at all.

I also think that our (the advantage VP community) smug assureance
that clueless dweebs playing "our" machines (during intervals when
we're home counting our loot) account for enough losses to offset
our activities and make the machines profitable for the casino, may
be in error. In reality, even the dumdums around here don't play
THAT badly.

vpFREE Links: http://members.cox.net/vpfree/Links.htm

Yahoo! Groups Links

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "jackessiebabe" <jackessiebabe@y...>
wrote:

>

>
> Kevin (it's obvious you are), please have another hissy-fit.
>
>+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Bill, I've only been a member a few months. Who the heck is
Kevin.....and what did he do to be held in such distain?

Kevin is a friend of mind whose ideas, similar to mine, got him
flamed, insulted, and ultimately hounded off this board, by people
with even less civility than this "Bill Coleman" character.
Bill thinks I'm him. Whatever. It's obvious that what Bill thinks,
Bill thinks, and nothing can dissuade him. I'm not going to make the
mistake that Kevin did, and give anyone here my REAL name.

For reasons I continue to find unfathomable, to suggest that VP
might not be 100% honest provokes deep emotional reactions in
certain people. Maybe it's because they have strong emotional ties
to the casinos, in that the casinos function as their friend, their
entertainer, their social life, their source of meaning in an
otherwise dull life. To suggest that they've been playing their
loyal patrons for suckers all these years is more than some fragile
egos can handle.

···

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, Bill Coleman <vphobby@c...> wrote:
> At 04:41 PM 09/11/2004, you wrote:

rockofjello333 wrote:

Kevin is a friend of mind whose ideas, similar to mine, got him
flamed, insulted, and ultimately hounded off this board ...

My recollection of Kevin's vpFREE participation and departure
is somewhat different.

IMO, Kevin didn't handle criticism very well, and was too
quick to cry foul and get personal when some of his "colorful"
generalizations were questioned. Rather than being "hounded off
this board", I think he took offense too easily, and chose to
take his bat and ball and go home when things didn't suit him.

Too bad. I didn't agree with everything Kevin wrote, but I
always enjoyed his posts.

vpFREE Administrator

rockofjello333 wrote:

> Kevin is a friend of mind whose ideas, similar to mine, got him
> flamed, insulted, and ultimately hounded off this board ...

My recollection of Kevin's vpFREE participation and departure
is somewhat different.

Tom,

You didn't see the e-mails he got privately. I only saw a few of the
worst, but they were enough to make me understand why he changed his
e-mail address for the duration.
I wasn't a VpFree member at the time in question, but I remember him
being appalled at the willingnesss of people to call him an idiot, a
jerk, etc. simply because he was expressing a controversial opinion.
He also felt (as I also do) that he was backing up these opinions
with concrete observations. Our mutual concern is and was real. When
our collective results go into the toilet after FIVE successful
years, then it's natural as well as prudent to try to find the
cause, given the amount of money involved, if nothing else.

IMO, Kevin didn't handle criticism very well, and was too
quick to cry foul and get personal when some of his "colorful"
generalizations were questioned. Rather than being "hounded off
this board", I think he took offense too easily, and chose to
take his bat and ball and go home when things didn't suit him.

Again, I don't know enough about it, but I'm sure his posts didn't
start out with, "X, what an ignorant fool you are"; apparent many of
the replies (on VpFree as well as privately) did. If he became
touchy as time went on, I can't blame him. After all, did he, or
does anyone, receive a farthing for posting anything on this board?
If we post, it's in the spirit of sharing information. I notice that
if someone posts something like, "The .25 Super Gonzo Double Double
Bonus Joker Deuces machines at the Chamber Pot that were next to the
HassenPfeffer House have been removed as of x/xx/xx." and then a few
days later, someone contradicts him, it's usually with a simple note
such as, "When I went there last Tuesday for the Rabbit Roast
special, they were still there." NOT, "YOU IGNORANT, BLIND, DISEASE-
RIDDEN BUCKET OF SLIME, those machines are still there!!! Go drink
rat poison, you stinking fool!! PERVERT!! You were WRONG WRONG WRONG
WRONG WRONG!!!"

Too bad. I didn't agree with everything Kevin wrote, but I
always enjoyed his posts.

Given that many of his posts were controversial ones, it's not
surprising many disagreed with him. Heck, it's not as if I agree
with everything he says. It's just too bad that the tone of the
discourse got so ugly. He says that he no longer participates in ANY
internet forum, bb, etc. on ANY subject, since, to quote
him, "People say stuff on message boards, and especially in e-mails,
that they wouldn't dare say to someone face-to-face for fear of
getting their teeth knocked in." For what it's worth, I've already
gotten a taste of the sort of invective that must have been dumped
on him, and I can't say I find it any more charming than he did.
Therefore, Tom, I'm more inclined to believe his version of events
than yours.

···

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "vpFREE" <vpFREE@C...> wrote:

In his last post to this forum, on Nov. 21, 2003, Kevin fabricated
an untrue version of an email exchange that we had. First, he
claimed that I had initiated the email, when in fact it was Kevin that
first made email contact. Then Kevin proceeded to make several
malicious misrepresentations about our email exchange. To put it
bluntly, he flat out lied about my emails, including claims that I had
sent "filth" to him.

Try to portray Kevin as a victim all you want, but the simple truth
is that Kevin is unable to withstand even the mildest of criticisms
without coming completely unglued. Then, he takes his own poor
behavior and attempts to projects it onto others.

I don't expect others to necessarily take my word for it, but the
incident showed me Kevin's true colors. As a result, if he came
back now I'd have little reason that place much credence in his
words, after finding out first-hand that accurate reporting of events
is not a high priority for him.

···

On Sunday 12 September 2004 02:56 pm, rockofjello333 wrote:

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "vpFREE" <vpFREE@C...> wrote:
> rockofjello333 wrote:
> > Kevin is a friend of mind whose ideas, similar to mine, got him
> > flamed, insulted, and ultimately hounded off this board ...
>
> My recollection of Kevin's vpFREE participation and departure
> is somewhat different.

Tom,

You didn't see the e-mails he got privately. I only saw a few of the
worst, but they were enough to make me understand why he changed his
e-mail address for the duration.

In his last post to this forum, on Nov. 21, 2003, Kevin fabricated
an untrue version of an email exchange that we had. First, he
claimed that I had initiated the email, when in fact it was Kevin

that

first made email contact. Then Kevin proceeded to make several
malicious misrepresentations about our email exchange. To put it
bluntly, he flat out lied about my emails, including claims that I

had

sent "filth" to him.

Try to portray Kevin as a victim all you want, but the simple truth
is that Kevin is unable to withstand even the mildest of criticisms
without coming completely unglued. Then, he takes his own poor
behavior and attempts to projects it onto others.

I don't expect others to necessarily take my word for it, but the
incident showed me Kevin's true colors. As a result, if he came
back now I'd have little reason that place much credence in his
words, after finding out first-hand that accurate reporting of

events

is not a high priority for him.

I've found in my journey through life that there is no such thing as
an argument started by one person.
Similarly, when a debate/discussion/argument becomes acrimonious or
uncivil, it's rarely one person's fault.
Therefore, I'm no more willing to absolve YOU of all blame for any
exchange that got out of hand, than I am to exonerate HIM. I would
bet several of my internal organs against a five-day-old doughnut
that your communications with him were filled with innuendo,
sarcasm, and insults, AS QUITE LIKELY WERE HIS RESPONSES TO YOU. The
fact that you can't lay off criticizing and insulting him even now,
tends to make me think that you, rather than he, were the guiltier
party.
And BTW---you apparently are willing to make snap judgments on a
person's character based on a few Internet postings: I can tell you
now that I have known Kevin L for fifteen years, and he's a good
friend, and let me tell you this--you don't know SHIT about
his "true colors".
To tell you the truth, I would be more inclined to believe your
version of events if you hadn't used your post as an opportunity to
take several more cheap shots at him.