Multi-Play, Card Pulling, Etiquette, etc.

[mercutions]

Greetings all! It's great to be a part of this community. I've just joined...and what a treat! I see that Jean Scott (along with who knows who else) is a contributing member here! I guess you really took to the computer like a duck takes to DWVP, eh Jean? (`;
   I am a bit confused about multi-pay machines. I was reading the American Casino Guide the other day and came across 2 seemingly-contradictory statements about these machines. [I believe Jean was the author of one of the articles.] One of the articles said that on, for instance, a 3-line machine, each hand is exactly the same. The other article said that it'll take you, using this 3-line machine, approx, 1/3 the time to hit a RF! How is that possible if all 3 hands are identical? Are there multi-pays of both breeds? One which displays 3 identical hands and another kind that displays 3 *different* hands?
   Another question about these machines... If it's a $.25 full-pay multi-play, how much (with Max bet, of course) are you putting into the machine per play? Is it the usual $1.25 or is it $3.75?
   Now on to general questions....
     Do most of these FP machines require *coins* to be inserted, or is there a card one can use to save time? Are all (non-jackpot) wins paid directly from the machine in coins, or can these credits be immediately added to your total without any coin involvement?
   Now it's time for CARD PULLING!! I just read about this yesterday in the FAQ of this group. I can understand why one might want to pull the card (slot club card? or card with "money" on it?) before a big hand for tax purposes, but why would one want to hide big wins from the casino? Is it even *possible* to hide big wins from the casino? After all, don't the big wins get paid by hand? Could it be that card pulling is nothing more than a way to try to convince the casinos that you're not a pro player? If you *do* pull your card, how excellent does the dealt hand have to be? Three deuces? Four to a Natural RF?
   Speaking of pro players, why don't casinos ask them to leave? After all, even though BJ card counters have a *slight* edge over the casino, if you're caught doing it, you will be asked to leave. How is VP any different?
   Now VP etiquette. I know that there are hundreds (perhaps thousands) of pro VP players out there. Considering that NV is possibly the only state whose laws require absolute randomness in the cards, I figure the vast majority of the pros play in Vegas (and Reno?). Now, judging by the relatively few good VP machines in Vegas (based on my "research" done on this group), would it be fair to say that any given good FP machine will be occupied by either a pro or some poor schmuck who doesn't know what he's doing? If I can't find any good, open machines, how would I go about resolving the situation? Is it best to just ask the player how much longer they have on the machine? And if I'm on the machine (I do know what I'm doing, BTW) and somebody else asks me, should I limit my time? After all, if they're interested enough in "my" machine, there's a good chance they know what they're doing. Being a newcomer (in December) to Vegas, I don't want to ruffle any feathers and to stay on the good side of you very helpful people out there!
   I'm sure I'll come up with more questions as my trip date approaches, but this is enough for now. Thanks to Jean, Dan P, Bob D, F Scoblete, TomSki, and all the other pioneers in this exciting game!

               With kind regards,
                Jon P of Florida

[eecounter]

Greetings all! .....>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Welcome. My, you have a lot of questions, but I'll take a stab at
answering them.

   I am a bit confused about multi-pay machines. I was reading

the American Casino Guide the other day and came across 2 seemingly-
contradictory statements about these machines. [I believe Jean was
the author of one of the articles.] One of the articles said that
on, for instance, a 3-line machine, each hand is exactly the same.
The other article said that it'll take you, using this 3-line
machine, approx, 1/3 the time to hit a RF! How is that possible if
all 3 hands are identical? Are there multi-pays of both breeds? One
which displays 3 identical hands and another kind that displays 3
*different* hands?>>>>>

It would take you about 2 hands of actual play on a multi-line
machine to figure out the answer to this question. Using the example
of a triple play machine, whichever cards you hold on the bottom line
are duplicated on the other two lines. Then when you hit the draw
button, the remaining cards for each row are drawn from three
independent "decks" of cards. So if you get a nice dealt pat hand
like a Full House, then yes you would wind up with three identical
Full Houses if you held all five cards. But more typically, if you
held lets say a pair, then each line would contain that pair but you
will wind up with all kinds of different hands on each row (i.e. one
pair, two pair, 3oaK, full house, or quad). And yes, it should take
you about 1/3 of the time to hit a Royal compared to a single line
machine, because you are playing 3 times as many hands in about the
same amount of time (actually, play goes a little slower on the multi-
line machines since it takes longer to display all of the extra
cards).

>>>>>> Another question about these machines... If it's a $.25
full-pay multi-play, how much (with Max bet, of course) are you
putting into the machine per play? Is it the usual $1.25 or is it
$3.75?

Actually, I believe "multi-line", or "triple play" (or five play, ten
play, etc.) are better terms for what you're talking about. "Multi-
play" is confusing because it usually refers to a machine that
contains several different games all within the same machine. But
yes, it takes $3.75 to play max bet on a three line quarter VP
machine.

Do most of these FP machines require *coins* to be inserted, or

is there a card one can use to save time? Are all (non-jackpot) wins
paid directly from the machine in coins, or can these credits be
immediately added to your total without any coin involvement?

There are a few ancient "coin droppers" still around, but most all
modern VP machines use credit play. You feed it some money, and the
machine racks up that amount in credits. As you play, the machine
adds or subracts credits as you win or lose. Only when you hit the
cash out button (or when you exceed some preset credit limit) does
the machine start spitting out coins. Also, some casinos are going
to a ticket system, where the machine prints out a paper voucher that
you take to the cashier rather than coins.

   Now it's time for CARD PULLING!! I just read about this

yesterday in the FAQ of this group. I can understand why one might
want to pull the card (slot club card? or card with "money" on it?)
before a big hand for tax purposes, but why would one want to hide
big wins from the casino? Is it even *possible* to hide big wins
from the casino? After all, don't the big wins get paid by hand?
Could it be that card pulling is nothing more than a way to try to
convince the casinos that you're not a pro player? If you *do* pull
your card, how excellent does the dealt hand have to be? Three
deuces? Four to a Natural RF?>>>>>>>

The purpose of card pulling is to convince the casino that you are an
overall LOSING player. It is not necessary, or even desireable, to
pull you card on big jackpot hands that require a hand pay. If you
can hide the occasional dealt full house or dealt quad from the
casino, that is usually sufficient to turn you from a winning player
into a big loser - at least according to the casino's records. By
the way, I have heard that card pulling may not work with some of the
newer, more sophisticated systems that casinos have.

Speaking of pro players, why don't casinos ask them to leave?

After all, even though BJ card counters have a *slight* edge over the
casino, if you're caught doing it, you will be asked to leave. How
is VP any different?>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Pro VP players do on occasion get asked to leave, or have their play
restricted in some other manner, but not nearly as frequently as
blackjack players. This usually (but not always) only happens to the
very high stakes VP players. It's hard to say exactly why, but for
whatever reason, the casinos don't seem to feel as threatened by pro
VP players as they do by pro blackjack players. Maybe it's because
it's easier for the casinos just to change the pay table of their
machines that are "too good" rather than spend a lot of effort trying
to kick out the pro VP players.

   Now VP etiquette........ would it be fair to say that

any given good FP machine will be occupied by either a pro or some
poor schmuck who doesn't know what he's doing? If I can't find any
good, open machines, how would I go about resolving the situation?
Is it best to just ask the player how much longer they have on the
machine? And if I'm on the machine (I do know what I'm doing, BTW)
and somebody else asks me, should I limit my time? After all, if
they're interested enough in "my" machine, there's a good chance they
know what they're doing. Being a newcomer (in December) to Vegas, I
don't want to ruffle any feathers and to stay on the good side of you
very helpful people out there!>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

It's usually not as bad as you describe. It's normally very easy to
get a seat at a good quarter machine like FPDW (assuming the casino
has some in the first place), since the approx. $7 per hour profit
potential is not nearly high enough to attract droves of pros to
these games. Unless the casino is jam packed, you shouldn't have a
problem. Only when you get the rare situation where you have a very
lucrative promotion with a limited supply of machines, do you have
problems such as you describe. These are the situations where you'll
see people show up at 6:00 PM just to get a seat at a machine for a
promotion that starts at midnight.

Good luck on your trip.

EE

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