vpFREE2 Forums

"Multi-Game, Multi-denom"

#1

On the multi-game, multi-denom machines is there a separate RNG for
each game and denom or is the same RNG used for each one?

If there is only one RNG does that mean when one selects say FPDW and
proceeds to get several natural 4OAK they can only be disgusted for
selecting the wrong game.

Just curious to know.

Al

#2

I doubt separate RNG's are needed; an opinion based on a post on this
board about a month ago. The post referred to an article in a Chicago
area publication that explained how the cards are selected.

Briefly, five cards are selected at random and displayed. While the
player decides what to do, the RNG continues to run, but the deck now
has only 47 cards. When the player hits the DEAL button the RNG
selects 1-5 cards from the 47, depending on the number of held cards.

I'm guessing the second step can be repeated multiple times, depending
on the number of games in play.

···

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "amarek1402" <amarek1402@...> wrote:

On the multi-game, multi-denom machines is there a separate RNG for
each game and denom or is the same RNG used for each one?

#3

On the multi-game, multi-denom machines is there a separate RNG for
each game and denom or is the same RNG used for each one?

If there is only one RNG does that mean when one selects say FPDW

and

proceeds to get several natural 4OAK they can only be disgusted for
selecting the wrong game.

Just curious to know.

Al

Separate, this allows for joker poker to be offered, so no if you
draw 4 ducks playin job it would mean you mean you gotten the same
hand playin deuces wild.
Per IGT web site

M J

···

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "amarek1402" <amarek1402@...> wrote:

#4

MJ

I am a little confused by what you say. You say there is a separate RNG. However, you say if one chooses to play JOB and gets 4 ducks they would be sorry they didn't choose DW. If they are separate how can that be?

···

----- Original Message ----- From: "mklpryy24" <mklpryy24@yahoo.com>
To: <vpFREE@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Saturday, February 25, 2006 4:55 PM
Subject: [vpFREE] Re: "Multi-Game, Multi-denom"

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "amarek1402" <amarek1402@...> wrote:

On the multi-game, multi-denom machines is there a separate RNG for
each game and denom or is the same RNG used for each one?

If there is only one RNG does that mean when one selects say FPDW

and

proceeds to get several natural 4OAK they can only be disgusted for
selecting the wrong game.

Just curious to know.

Al

Separate, this allows for joker poker to be offered, so no if you
draw 4 ducks playin job it would mean you mean you gotten the same
hand playin deuces wild.
Per IGT web site

M J

vpFREE Links: http://members.cox.net/vpfree/Links.htm

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#5

amarek1402 wrote:

> On the multi-game, multi-denom machines is there a separate RNG
> for each game and denom or is the same RNG used for each one?

mklpryy24 replied:

Separate, this allows for joker poker to be offered

My uneducated guess is that there is only one RNG, but separate
mappings of the result to accomodate games with different card decks.

- H.

#6

Is there one or more RNGs in a multi-game, multi-denom box?

        The real answer is that it doesn't matter. Whether you have just
been dealt deuces has NOTHING to do with what game you are playing, and
NOTHING to do with what's coming next. If you want to feel bad that
there is another game where it would pay better than the one you are
playing, go ahead and feel really terrible if you think it will make you
feel better.

        I've always thought of the RNG as embedded code in a program.
There are separate copies of the same embedded code in a 9/6 Jacks game
as there is in a FPDW game as there is in a DDB game. Linguists can
argue whether separate copies of the same code constitute the same RNG
or separate RNGs.

        This thread have been talking about an RNG as though it is a
separate electronic thingamagig that is in the box somewhere, and
presumably could be replaced by another doohickey. I don't think it's
that way at all.

Bob Dancer

For the best in video poker information, visit www.bobdancer.com
or call 1-800-244-2224 M-F 9-5 Pacific Time.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

#7

Hi Bob,

I was always curious to learn the TECHNICAL names for various
electronic conponents in a VP machine. Thanks for enlightening me! (-:

-Babe-

···

======================================================
--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "Bob Dancer" <bob.dancer@...> wrote:

........This thread have been talking about an RNG as though it is
a separate electronic thingamagig that is in the box somewhere, and
presumably could be replaced by another doohickey. I don't think
it's that way at all.......................

#8

Babe wrote: Hi Bob. I was always curious to learn the TECHNICAL names
for various electronic conponents in a VP machine. Thanks for
enlightening me! ======================================================

···

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "Bob Dancer" <bob.dancer@...> wrote:

........This thread have been talking about an RNG as though it is
a separate electronic thingamagig that is in the box somewhere, and
presumably could be replaced by another doohickey. I don't think
it's that way at all.......................

Actually, Babe. I was giving you the TECHNICAL names for various
electronic components that AREN'T in a VP machine. But you're welcome,
in any case.

Bob Dancer

For the best in video poker information, visit www.bobdancer.com
or call 1-800-244-2224 M-F 9-5 Pacific Time.

-----Original Message-----
From: vpFREE@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vpF…@…com] On Behalf
Of jackessiebabe
Sent: Sunday, February 26, 2006 12:14 PM
To: vpFREE@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [vpFREE] Re: "Multi-Game, Multi-denom"

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#9

Thanks for all the responses on this thread. It has been helpful and informative. Dealing with the losing in this game is tuff enough I certainly don't want to make myself feel more miserable.

Al

···

----- Original Message ----- From: "Bob Dancer" <bob.dancer@compdance.com>
To: <vpFREE@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Sunday, February 26, 2006 2:15 AM
Subject: RE: [vpFREE] Re: "Multi-Game, Multi-denom"

       Is there one or more RNGs in a multi-game, multi-denom box?

       The real answer is that it doesn't matter. Whether you have just
been dealt deuces has NOTHING to do with what game you are playing, and
NOTHING to do with what's coming next. If you want to feel bad that
there is another game where it would pay better than the one you are
playing, go ahead and feel really terrible if you think it will make you
feel better.

       I've always thought of the RNG as embedded code in a program.
There are separate copies of the same embedded code in a 9/6 Jacks game
as there is in a FPDW game as there is in a DDB game. Linguists can
argue whether separate copies of the same code constitute the same RNG
or separate RNGs.

       This thread have been talking about an RNG as though it is a
separate electronic thingamagig that is in the box somewhere, and
presumably could be replaced by another doohickey. I don't think it's
that way at all.

Bob Dancer

For the best in video poker information, visit www.bobdancer.com
or call 1-800-244-2224 M-F 9-5 Pacific Time.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

vpFREE Links: http://members.cox.net/vpfree/Links.htm

Yahoo! Groups Links

#10

        This thread have been talking about an RNG as though it is a
separate electronic thingamagig that is in the box somewhere, and
presumably could be replaced by another doohickey. I don't think

it's

that way at all.

Bob Dancer

I'm confident Bob is correct. Think of a RNG as a algorithm in a
software program. An algorithm, in this case, refers to code
that executes in a continous cycle, or "loop", spitting out random
numbers at high speed. A RNG is not a doohickey (hardware).

As this software is executing (continuously), other code is running
that samples (selects) the random numbers. Each random number is
then mapped (converted) to a specific card for display. For example,
the random number "42" might map to the Ace of Spades. This
software includes logic to reject duplicate random numbers to prevent
the same card appearing twice in the same game.

The Nevada Gaming Commission is supposed to test these algorithms to
ensure they do, in fact, generate random numbers. However, I've read
that algorithms can only generate "pseudo" random numbers, but they
are close enough to true random numbers that the differences have no
significance.

I'm very open to comments, if I've said anything above that is
misleading or incorrect.

In other words, there doesn't appear to be a need for duplicate RNG
algorithms for multi-game multi-denom games.

···

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "Bob Dancer" <bob.dancer@...> wrote:

#11

<<However, I've read that algorithms can only generate "pseudo" random
numbers, but they are close enough to true random numbers that the
differences have no significance.>>

There's no such thing as a "true" random number. So long as the sequence
cannot be predicted, it's random "enough."

Cogno

#12

I would be somewhat surprised if modern machines are still using
software pseudo-RNGs, given the availability and reliability of
hardware RNGs, which are truly random (the web site www.random.org has
been providing true random numbers for years).

That being said, there is no black magic in pseudo-RNGs, those are
simple and well-understood pieces of software, which can be made
arbitrarily unpredictable. Combining that with the timing with which a
player hits the keys, they're essentially purely random, at least for
the practical purposes of a VP player.

JBQ

···

On 2/27/06, Cogno Scienti <cognoscienti@gmail.com> wrote:

<<However, I've read that algorithms can only generate "pseudo" random
numbers, but they are close enough to true random numbers that the
differences have no significance.>>

There's no such thing as a "true" random number. So long as the sequence
cannot be predicted, it's random "enough."

#13

Thanks, Brumar !

I think that your RNG explanation is one of the most clear cut,
concise and understandable descriptions of the RNG that I've read to
date. Thanks for presenting it in simple terms that even the
math/science challenged among us can readily grasp.

Regards,
-Babe-

···

========================================
--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "brumar_lv" <brumar_lv@...> wrote:

I'm confident Bob is correct. Think of a RNG as a algorithm in a
software program. An algorithm, in this case, refers to code that
executes in a continous cycle, or "loop", spitting out random
numbers at high speed. A RNG is not a doohickey (hardware).
As this software is executing (continuously), other code is running
that samples (selects) the random numbers. Each random number is
then mapped (converted) to a specific card for display. For
example, the random number "42" might map to the Ace of Spades.

This software includes logic to reject duplicate random numbers to
prevent the same card appearing twice in the same game..............

#14

I also want to thank you---my head didn't throb after reading your explanation! Jean
   
jackessiebabe <jackessiebabe@yahoo.com> wrote: Thanks, Brumar !
I think that your RNG explanation is one of the most clear cut,concise and understandable descriptions of the RNG that I've read to
date. Thanks for presenting it in simple terms that even the math/science challenged among us can readily grasp. Regards,-Babe-

···

========================================

Jean H--
   
  You have brains in your head. You have feet in your shoes.
You can steer yourself any direction you choose.
You're on your own. And you know what you know.
  And YOU are the one who'll decide where to go.... Dr. Suess

---------------------------------
Relax. Yahoo! Mail virus scanning helps detect nasty viruses!

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

#15

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "Jean-Baptiste Queru" <jbqueru@...>
wrote:

I would be somewhat surprised if modern machines are still using
software pseudo-RNGs, given the availability and reliability of
hardware RNGs, which are truly random (the web site www.random.org

has

been providing true random numbers for years).

That being said, there is no black magic in pseudo-RNGs, those are
simple and well-understood pieces of software, which can be made
arbitrarily unpredictable. Combining that with the timing with

which a

player hits the keys, they're essentially purely random, at least

for

the practical purposes of a VP player.

JBQ

BDPW (Winpoker) uses a software based RNG (since all we buy is the
CD). The routine was discussed on the Winpoker site some time ago,
by the developer, in response to a question on how it works. I've
often wondered if it is as random as the IGT RNG.

#16

Well, some intel PCs have a hardware RNG, but since it's an optional
feature most (all?) PC manufacturers decide not to include it. And
since it's likely that decent VP software would want to use its own
pseudo-random numbers instead of relying on the underlying OS there's
a pretty good chance that Winpoker won't use the hardware RNG even if
it's present.

100% pure speculation, though.

JBQ

···

On 3/1/06, brumar_lv <brumar_lv@yahoo.com> wrote:

BDPW (Winpoker) uses a software based RNG (since all we buy is the CD).

#17

brumar_lv wrote:

BDPW (Winpoker) uses a software based RNG (since all we buy is the
CD). The routine was discussed on the Winpoker site some time ago,
by the developer, in response to a question on how it works. I've
often wondered if it is as random as the IGT RNG.

This has been discussed on the WinPoker group, as you note. If I
recall correctly, Dean admits that the algorithm is far from rigorous
-- but certainly strong enough for purposes of a tutor. You wouldn't
want to use the software for an extensive statistical analysis of a
game. But, again, there's sufficient randomness to give a fair
representation of the game volatility and expected values. (Of
course, the statistical calculations of ER and variance are precise,
driven by the paytable values and expected hand distribution with ER
optimal play.)

It was discussed (again, working from recollection) that the starting
position of the pointer on the screen is used as an initial seed.
From that point, all subsequent hands generated by the algorithm
follow a specific order from that first hand -- there is no other
randomness introduced. Presumably, if you could pinpoint the precise
pixel on the screen when starting the software each time, the exact
same hands would be produced with each successive play.

I trust I'll be forgiven for a faulty memory, if that should prove the
case :wink:

- Harry