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MS STP Poker at ledgaming.com

I took a look at this today. Multipliers apply to a given line only. This makes the generation of correct strategy much harder. When no multiplier up you add 20% to the normal 30/20/10 (6/4/2) rule. When the multiplier is up you multiply the values by the multiplier then apply the adjusted rule above. That is a total of 22 different paytables instead of 4 to get the complete strategy for one game. I have not seen VPFW so while I know it covers Multi-Strike and STP I do not know if it cover this version? Also note that having a multiplier up works against the strategy of trying harder to advance at the expense of lowering the current line score. These games could be a nightmare to learn!

···

----- Original Message -----
From: Matthew Ross
To: vpFREE@yahoogroups.com
Sent: 4/28/2007 12:19:58 PM
Subject: [vpFREE] MS STP Poker at ledgaming.com

http://tinyurl.com/2hc8v6

Matthew

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

howard.w.stern wrote:

I took a look at this today. Multipliers apply to a given line only.
This makes the generation of correct strategy much harder. When no
multiplier up you add 20% to the normal 30/20/10 (6/4/2) rule. When
the multiplier is up you multiply the values by the multiplier then
apply the adjusted rule above. That is a total of 22 different
paytables instead of 4 to get the complete strategy for one game.

Leave it to you to complicate things ... there are only 16 distinct
strategies, no? :slight_smile:

(1) Basic strategy used for Level 1-3 w/o FR, always for Level 4.
(3 x 5) For each of first 3 levels, w/ FR adjust strat based on
multiplier (5 values).

Casinos have the room to sweeten paytables on these machines given the
unliklihood of play with fully optimized strategy (although I expect
some good abridgements are feasible). However, with decent demand,
they'll be no need.

One good thing about the machines ... because they can be played in
standard MS mode (you don't buy the STP bet), they don't need to
surplant existing MS machines.

- Harry

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "Harry Porter" <harry.porter@...>
wrote:

howard.w.stern wrote:
> I took a look at this today. Multipliers apply to a given line

only.

> This makes the generation of correct strategy much harder. When

no

> multiplier up you add 20% to the normal 30/20/10 (6/4/2) rule.

When

> the multiplier is up you multiply the values by the multiplier

then

> apply the adjusted rule above. That is a total of 22 different
> paytables instead of 4 to get the complete strategy for one game.

Leave it to you to complicate things ... there are only 16 distinct
strategies, no? :slight_smile:

(1) Basic strategy used for Level 1-3 w/o FR, always for Level 4.
(3 x 5) For each of first 3 levels, w/ FR adjust strat based on
multiplier (5 values).

Casinos have the room to sweeten paytables on these machines given

the

unliklihood of play with fully optimized strategy (although I expect
some good abridgements are feasible). However, with decent demand,
they'll be no need.

One good thing about the machines ... because they can be played in
standard MS mode (you don't buy the STP bet), they don't need to
surplant existing MS machines.

- Harry

I looked at the game again last night. Since there are no 8x or 10x
16 is indeed correct not 22. I also assume but I did not see anything
in the notes that the multiplier will have to occur more often than
standard STP. If 2x, 3x, 4x or 5x is equally likely, once every 12.5
hands would equalize the sixth coin. The strategy changes however
would reduce the usual Multistrike advantage so maybe the multiplier
needs to appear slightly more often.

···

The STP multiplier occurs 1 in every 10 dealt hands when the bonus bet
has been made. It is an independent 1 in 10 draw for each hand dealt
on any level. The EV of the multiplier is 3X which makes the feature
by itself neutral to the expected return.

The Free Rides are set so that the returns are slightly higher than
the Multi-Strike returns (for example, I believe that 9-6 Jacks is
99.81 where in Multi-Strike it is 99.79). As in Multi-Strike, this
increase was needed to comply with all jurisdictional rules.

The general rule of thumb is to revert to maximize the current hand
(standard strategy) when the STP multiplier is in play although this
doesn't work on every hand. We haven't run an analysis of the return
of this strategy but hope to when we get the time.

-Larry DeMar
President
Leading Edge Design
http://www.LEDGaming.com

···

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "howardwstern" <howard.w.stern@...> wrote:

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "Harry Porter" <harry.porter@>
wrote:
>
> howard.w.stern wrote:
> > I took a look at this today. Multipliers apply to a given line
only.
> > This makes the generation of correct strategy much harder. When
no
> > multiplier up you add 20% to the normal 30/20/10 (6/4/2) rule.
When
> > the multiplier is up you multiply the values by the multiplier
then
> > apply the adjusted rule above. That is a total of 22 different
> > paytables instead of 4 to get the complete strategy for one game.
>
> Leave it to you to complicate things ... there are only 16 distinct
> strategies, no? :slight_smile:
>
> (1) Basic strategy used for Level 1-3 w/o FR, always for Level 4.
> (3 x 5) For each of first 3 levels, w/ FR adjust strat based on
> multiplier (5 values).
>
> Casinos have the room to sweeten paytables on these machines given
the
> unliklihood of play with fully optimized strategy (although I expect
> some good abridgements are feasible). However, with decent demand,
> they'll be no need.
>
> One good thing about the machines ... because they can be played in
> standard MS mode (you don't buy the STP bet), they don't need to
> surplant existing MS machines.
>
> - Harry

I looked at the game again last night. Since there are no 8x or 10x
16 is indeed correct not 22. I also assume but I did not see anything
in the notes that the multiplier will have to occur more often than
standard STP. If 2x, 3x, 4x or 5x is equally likely, once every 12.5
hands would equalize the sixth coin. The strategy changes however
would reduce the usual Multistrike advantage so maybe the multiplier
needs to appear slightly more often.
>

The STP multiplier occurs 1 in every 10 dealt hands when the bonus

bet

has been made. It is an independent 1 in 10 draw for each hand

dealt

on any level. The EV of the multiplier is 3X which makes the

feature

by itself neutral to the expected return.

The Free Rides are set so that the returns are slightly higher than
the Multi-Strike returns (for example, I believe that 9-6 Jacks is
99.81 where in Multi-Strike it is 99.79). As in Multi-Strike, this
increase was needed to comply with all jurisdictional rules.

The general rule of thumb is to revert to maximize the current hand
(standard strategy) when the STP multiplier is in play although this
doesn't work on every hand. We haven't run an analysis of the

return

of this strategy but hope to when we get the time.

-Larry DeMar
President
Leading Edge Design
http://www.LEDGaming.com

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "howardwstern" <howard.w.stern@>

wrote:

>
> --- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "Harry Porter" <harry.porter@>
> wrote:
> >
> > howard.w.stern wrote:
> > > I took a look at this today. Multipliers apply to a given

line

> only.
> > > This makes the generation of correct strategy much harder.

When

> no
> > > multiplier up you add 20% to the normal 30/20/10 (6/4/2)

rule.

> When
> > > the multiplier is up you multiply the values by the

multiplier

> then
> > > apply the adjusted rule above. That is a total of 22

different

> > > paytables instead of 4 to get the complete strategy for one

game.

> >
> > Leave it to you to complicate things ... there are only 16

distinct

> > strategies, no? :slight_smile:
> >
> > (1) Basic strategy used for Level 1-3 w/o FR, always for Level

4.

> > (3 x 5) For each of first 3 levels, w/ FR adjust strat based on
> > multiplier (5 values).
> >
> > Casinos have the room to sweeten paytables on these machines

given

> the
> > unliklihood of play with fully optimized strategy (although I

expect

> > some good abridgements are feasible). However, with decent

demand,

> > they'll be no need.
> >
> > One good thing about the machines ... because they can be

played in

> > standard MS mode (you don't buy the STP bet), they don't need to
> > surplant existing MS machines.
> >
> > - Harry
>
> I looked at the game again last night. Since there are no 8x or

10x

> 16 is indeed correct not 22. I also assume but I did not see

anything

> in the notes that the multiplier will have to occur more often

than

> standard STP. If 2x, 3x, 4x or 5x is equally likely, once every

12.5

> hands would equalize the sixth coin. The strategy changes however
> would reduce the usual Multistrike advantage so maybe the

multiplier

> needs to appear slightly more often.

Thank You Larry. I am a big fan of both Multi-Strike and Super Times
Pay so I am hoping the game becomes available in the Chicago Area
soon.

···

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "Larry218" <larry@...> wrote:

> >
>

Howard-

Our records (which are not always accurate since they sometimes show
games that have been purchased but not installed) show that Harrahs
Joliet has 2 Multi-Strike Super Times Pay Poker games.

-Larry DeMar
President
Leading Edge Design
http://www.LEDGaming.com

···

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "howardwstern" <howard.w.stern@...> wrote:

Thank You Larry. I am a big fan of both Multi-Strike and Super Times
Pay so I am hoping the game becomes available in the Chicago Area
soon.

Howard-

Our records (which are not always accurate since they sometimes show
games that have been purchased but not installed) show that Harrahs
Joliet has 2 Multi-Strike Super Times Pay Poker games.

-Larry DeMar
President
Leading Edge Design
http://www.LEDGaming.com

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "howardwstern" <howard.w.stern@>

wrote:

> Thank You Larry. I am a big fan of both Multi-Strike and Super

Times

> Pay so I am hoping the game becomes available in the Chicago Area
> soon.

Thank You. Unforetunately Harrah's Joliet (Like many other Harrah's
properties.) has zero full pay VP of any type at any wagering level.
I supported Harrah's East Chicago for several years as a diamond
member even though the only full pay games they had were two triple
play games at 25c (later only one) and one $5 triple play. These
games had NSUD. Harrah's Joliet was full pay for many years at the $1
and up level including $1 Multi-Strike but is not anymore. The
Majestic Star (Gary IN) has cut it's best inventory down but still
includes two 25c, one 50c and one $1 Multi-Strike with full pay
games. Also three $1 five play Multi-Strike with full pay games.
(These are in 5c/25c/$1 format but only the $1 games are full pay.)
Other Multi-Strike and Five Play Multi-Strike at the MS is less than
full pay.

···

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "Larry218" <larry@...> wrote:

Larry DeMar wrote:

The STP multiplier occurs 1 in every 10 dealt hands when the bonus
bet has been made. It is an independent 1 in 10 draw for each hand
dealt on any level. The EV of the multiplier is 3X which makes the
feature by itself neutral to the expected return.

The Free Rides are set so that the returns are slightly higher than
the Multi-Strike returns (for example, I believe that 9-6 Jacks is
99.81 where in Multi-Strike it is 99.79). As in Multi-Strike, this
increase was needed to comply with all jurisdictional rules.

The general rule of thumb is to revert to maximize the current hand
(standard strategy) when the STP multiplier is in play although this
doesn't work on every hand. We haven't run an analysis of the return
of this strategy but hope to when we get the time.

My first pass at this (well, 2nd ... I reversed a sign for the first 5
hour run :wink: calls the ER at 99.67% under this simplified strategy.
Not too shabby.

I used Free Ride probabilities from the Game Info screen at
ledgaming.com (.0768/.0684/.0628). Based upon the above statement re
the multiplier, I assumed frequencies of .9/.04/.03/.02/.01 -- this
averages to 3x when the multiplier is active and adds 1 coin to the EV
of each wager per Level, offsetting the additional coin wagered/Level
in buying the STP option.

Ultimately I'll follow with a comparison of MS-STP variance vs.
standard MS.

- Harry

Larry DeMar wrote:
The general rule of thumb is to revert to maximize the current hand
(standard strategy) when the STP multiplier is in play although this
doesn't work on every hand.

Larry,

Would it be fair to suggest that the next refinement in strategy would
be to establish an ER breakpoint for the dealt hand (under standard
strategy), when a multiplier was in play, under which you would pursue
MS optimized strategy rather than standard?

To keep this strategy enhancement "simple" you might set a single
breakpoint (say, assuming a 3x multiplier) -- and use it for any
multiplier. Ideally, one would set a breakpoint specific to each
multiplier.

Or am I a little off track here?

- Harry

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "Harry Porter" <harry.porter@...>
wrote:

> Larry DeMar wrote:
> The general rule of thumb is to revert to maximize the current

hand

> (standard strategy) when the STP multiplier is in play although

this

> doesn't work on every hand.

Larry,

Would it be fair to suggest that the next refinement in strategy

would

be to establish an ER breakpoint for the dealt hand (under standard
strategy), when a multiplier was in play, under which you would

pursue

MS optimized strategy rather than standard?

To keep this strategy enhancement "simple" you might set a single
breakpoint (say, assuming a 3x multiplier) -- and use it for any
multiplier. Ideally, one would set a breakpoint specific to each
multiplier.

Or am I a little off track here?

- Harry

See my original note on this subject. Each multiplier has a different
strategy. With no multiplier the 6-4-2 rule gets 20% added to it to
cover the sixth coin multiplier possibilities on subsequent lines.
With a multiplier you first multipy the base values by the multiplier
and then add the 7.2 or 4.8 or 2.4 units.

Howard

···

howardwstern wrote:

See my original note on this subject. Each multiplier has a different
strategy. With no multiplier the 6-4-2 rule gets 20% added to it to
cover the sixth coin multiplier possibilities on subsequent lines.
With a multiplier you first multipy the base values by the multiplier
and then add the 7.2 or 4.8 or 2.4 units.

Entirely understood, Howard ... and when implemented "perfectly", this
is where 16 distinct strategies for play are introduced (as we earlier
discussed).

Larry has suggested a simplified approach that's limited to the 4
basic strategies of standard MS. However, he noted, "The general rule
of thumb is to revert to maximize the current hand (standard strategy)
when the STP multiplier is in play although this doesn't work on every
hand."

So, this begs the question of what might be done next to refine the
strategy without going full hog and introducing the 16 strategies
we've earlier noted.

I'm now suggesting that one might improve upon Larry's very basic
approach be advancing one step -- in the case where a multiplier
appears, shifting to "standard" strategy (vs. MS optimized strategy)
would only be done when the EV of the dealt hand exceeds a given
threshold and the multiplier is at least 3x.

The logic is that below some EV, the advantage of progressing to
higher levels may still be so strong as to warrant use of an MS
optimized strategy even when there's a multiplier on the current line.

Still, to keep things simple and limited to the basic 4 MS strategies,
I'm suggesting that when strategy is shifted to an "optimized MS" one,
the player stick to the optimized strategies of standard MS ... i.e.
one based on the already used 6-4-2 rule, not on the adjusted
7.2-4.8-2.4 that would represent a perfect play approach.

Bottom line, I suggest using basic strategy when there's a Free Ride
or when there's a 3x+ multiplier AND hand EV is below a given
threshold for the Level in play. Otherwise, the existing adjusted
strategy for MS is used.

While somewhat cumbersome to describe in words, we're talking about a
single shift in strategy application vs regular MS -- and using only
the same existing 4 MS strategies; no new ones.

While a step more complex than standard MS play, it's tremendously
simpler than the fully optimized MS-STP strategy -- which I think we
both agree would likely be too unwieldy to effectively adopt in play.
Via the enhancement I suggest, I think it may be possible to recoup
the lion's share of the .12% lost under Larry's simplified strategy.

- Harry

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "Harry Porter" <harry.porter@...>
wrote:

howardwstern wrote:
> See my original note on this subject. Each multiplier has a

different

> strategy. With no multiplier the 6-4-2 rule gets 20% added to it

to

> cover the sixth coin multiplier possibilities on subsequent

lines.

> With a multiplier you first multipy the base values by the

multiplier

> and then add the 7.2 or 4.8 or 2.4 units.

Entirely understood, Howard ... and when implemented "perfectly",

this

is where 16 distinct strategies for play are introduced (as we

earlier

discussed).

Larry has suggested a simplified approach that's limited to the 4
basic strategies of standard MS. However, he noted, "The general

rule

of thumb is to revert to maximize the current hand (standard

strategy)

when the STP multiplier is in play although this doesn't work on

every

hand."

So, this begs the question of what might be done next to refine the
strategy without going full hog and introducing the 16 strategies
we've earlier noted.

I'm now suggesting that one might improve upon Larry's very basic
approach be advancing one step -- in the case where a multiplier
appears, shifting to "standard" strategy (vs. MS optimized strategy)
would only be done when the EV of the dealt hand exceeds a given
threshold and the multiplier is at least 3x.

The logic is that below some EV, the advantage of progressing to
higher levels may still be so strong as to warrant use of an MS
optimized strategy even when there's a multiplier on the current

line.

Still, to keep things simple and limited to the basic 4 MS

strategies,

I'm suggesting that when strategy is shifted to an "optimized MS"

one,

the player stick to the optimized strategies of standard MS ... i.e.
one based on the already used 6-4-2 rule, not on the adjusted
7.2-4.8-2.4 that would represent a perfect play approach.

Bottom line, I suggest using basic strategy when there's a Free Ride
or when there's a 3x+ multiplier AND hand EV is below a given
threshold for the Level in play. Otherwise, the existing adjusted
strategy for MS is used.

While somewhat cumbersome to describe in words, we're talking about

a

single shift in strategy application vs regular MS -- and using only
the same existing 4 MS strategies; no new ones.

While a step more complex than standard MS play, it's tremendously
simpler than the fully optimized MS-STP strategy -- which I think we
both agree would likely be too unwieldy to effectively adopt in

play.

Via the enhancement I suggest, I think it may be possible to recoup
the lion's share of the .12% lost under Larry's simplified strategy.

- Harry

I suspect that using the 7.2/4.8/2.4 rule to refine the first three
line strategies and then going to the "free ride-4th line" basic
strategy that Larry suggests when any multiplier is up will get
almost all that is available. (If you look at the help info on the
games the "free ride" numbers are not tweaked that much. Certainly it
cannot take a long time to run three additional VPSM charts if you
plan to play this game. For me it is just theory now as there is no
playable version of this game in the Chicago Area. Also since I do
not have as many casinos as LV in my area I would probably only look
at the best game available which in my area (For Multi-Strike this is
currently 25-12 DBDW). I just want to be able to get ready if a
playable version shows up. If you actually want perfect play you
could use software like VPSM gives a value of each hand and perfect
play could be done by reverting on any hand where the basic
versus "7.2" Multi-Strike strategy has a difference of less than the
7.2 or 4.8 or 2.4 divided by the multiplier. Example: (A first line
3x would swing any play with a difference of less than 2.4 units in
basic first line Multi-Strike.) I suspect that many new forms of vp
in the future will be designed to be more difficult to strategize or
figure the true payback for so the casinos can squeeze out more
profits. Opponent Poker and Guaranteed Play Poker probably represent
both situations.

Howard W Stern

···

howardwstern wrote:

I suspect that using the 7.2/4.8/2.4 rule to refine the first three
line strategies and then going to the "free ride-4th line" basic
strategy that Larry suggests when any multiplier is up will get
almost all that is available.

I apparently misunderstood your last post to mean that you recommended
any strategy employed should be uniquely adjusted for each possible
value of the multiplier.

You're correct in summarizing the simplified strategy that Larry put
forth. In the work up I ran, I used 6/4/2 to get a feel for where
things came out should you stick to existing learned MS strategies.
As I discussed, this results in a .12% shortfall from the optimum ER
that could theoretically be achieved in the game.

I'll give the more accurate 7.2/4.8/2.4 adjustments (reflecting
average payout enhancement when multipliers are factored) a run later
tonight. As you indicate, I fully expect that this will recover the
lion's share of the .12% with just 4 play strategies -- perhaps saving
even the most ER-demanding of players from having to tackle 16
individual play strategies in order to play near-perfect.

- Harry

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "Harry Porter" <harry.porter@...>
wrote:

howardwstern wrote:
> I suspect that using the 7.2/4.8/2.4 rule to refine the first

three

> line strategies and then going to the "free ride-4th line" basic
> strategy that Larry suggests when any multiplier is up will get
> almost all that is available.

I apparently misunderstood your last post to mean that you

recommended

any strategy employed should be uniquely adjusted for each possible
value of the multiplier.

You're correct in summarizing the simplified strategy that Larry put
forth. In the work up I ran, I used 6/4/2 to get a feel for where
things came out should you stick to existing learned MS strategies.
As I discussed, this results in a .12% shortfall from the optimum ER
that could theoretically be achieved in the game.

I'll give the more accurate 7.2/4.8/2.4 adjustments (reflecting
average payout enhancement when multipliers are factored) a run

later

tonight. As you indicate, I fully expect that this will recover the
lion's share of the .12% with just 4 play strategies -- perhaps

saving

even the most ER-demanding of players from having to tackle 16
individual play strategies in order to play near-perfect.

- Harry

Thanks Harry, Let us know how it works out. I am definately not in
the Bob Dancer category but I would much rather give away .01%
or .02% than .12%.

···

howardwstern wrote:

Thanks Harry, Let us know how it works out. I am definately not in
the Bob Dancer category but I would much rather give away .01%
or .02% than .12%.

Well, I substituted data for MS-STP play using the 20% bump up in the
standard 6/4/2 strategy adjustments ... unfortunately it only bumped
up ER by an additional .02%.

The 99.69% MS-STP ER calculated from my program bears confirmation by
Larry's group, but it was coughed up by the same program that was
vetted for a standard MS return calc.

I don't expect to pursue it further, but I'll still suggest that some
"top side" strategy changes might capture the balance of the 99.81%
game theo (value per Larry).

For example, it's my expectation that, on Level 1, a STP multiplier of
3 or 2 still leaves optimized strategy the stronger move, rather than
using standard game strategy as is being done under the simplified
approach here.

But I'm likely in your shoes, Howard ... a "playable" MS-STP is an
improbable prospect for AC (though not entirely impossible, since
Borgata has 9/6 Jacks MS).

- Harry

The highest payout schedule I've seen ( and played ) was at VP heaven Atlantis in Reno where they
boast 9/5 Jacks and 8/6 bonus poker deluxe. I believe the occasional 40X top line multiplier scares the heck out of slot managers.

···

But I'm likely in your shoes, Howard ... a "playable" MS-STP is an
improbable prospect for AC (though not entirely impossible, since
Borgata has 9/6 Jacks MS).

tomflush wrote:

The highest payout schedule I've seen ( and played ) was at VP heaven
Atlantis in Reno where they boast 9/5 Jacks and 8/6 bonus poker
deluxe. I believe the occasional 40X top line multiplier scares the
heck out of slot managers.

No doubt. Of course, a top-line 40x RF is a one in 32mil play event
with a $.25 payout that's only 10 times that of a $1 single line royal
(and double that of a standard 5-line $1 machine).

I'd think most moderate sized casinos (incl many of the locals) could
handle that risk, in quarters at least (which, at $6 a "pull" will
likely cover that $40K well in advance of occurrence).

Of course, do you see much 9/6 regular STP around?

- Harry

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "Harry Porter" <harry.porter@...>
wrote:

howardwstern wrote:
> Thanks Harry, Let us know how it works out. I am definately not

in

> the Bob Dancer category but I would much rather give away .01%
> or .02% than .12%.

Well, I substituted data for MS-STP play using the 20% bump up in

the

standard 6/4/2 strategy adjustments ... unfortunately it only bumped
up ER by an additional .02%.

The 99.69% MS-STP ER calculated from my program bears confirmation

by

Larry's group, but it was coughed up by the same program that was
vetted for a standard MS return calc.

I don't expect to pursue it further, but I'll still suggest that

some

"top side" strategy changes might capture the balance of the 99.81%
game theo (value per Larry).

For example, it's my expectation that, on Level 1, a STP multiplier

of

3 or 2 still leaves optimized strategy the stronger move, rather

than

using standard game strategy as is being done under the simplified
approach here.

But I'm likely in your shoes, Howard ... a "playable" MS-STP is an
improbable prospect for AC (though not entirely impossible, since
Borgata has 9/6 Jacks MS).

- Harry

Thank You for your work. At my home casino 9-6 Jacks is on two STPs
at the 25c level. (My mom royaled with a 3x last labor day weekend.)
Also on 25c/50c/$1 Multi-Strike and $1 five play Multi-Strike. The MS
also has NSUD and 25-12 DBDW so goods games are available. We have
another casino that has 9-6 jacks MS from 25c to $25. (The $500 for
the latter is somewhat above most peoples bankrolls!) My home casino
has killed about 1/3 of it's full pay recently so that is a very bad
sign!

···