vpFREE2 Forums

MS Comp Info (6% theo on $1 pick'em)

2 days ago I was at Mohegan Sun and with $7000 in action at $1 PE, I
asked for a food comp and got $20 for Fidelia's from a host named
Judy. Yesterday, with $5900 in action I saw a host named Cedrone and
he was very informative. I was surprised when he said you only need
one hour of play at $5/hand (ie. 5 x $1) to be admitted into a lounge
(sachem, feather, or arrow) and that I qualified almost every day
I've been there; and I did in fact have quite a few days where I only
played an hour at a 450 hand/hr rate. You can get 24 hrs of lounge
access for every day that qualifies, but they will only look back 30
days. He let me see my computer screen which showed my numbers
(theos, avg's, etc.) None of the hosts who have seen my account were
able to tell whether I was playing slots or VP; they treated it as
the same game. No where did my screen show an actual loss, just the
theoreticals. Using simple division, and having played only $1 PE, I
was able to determine the theo they use for this is almost exactly
6%. Now I've seen some of the reports to the State of Connecticut
and have seen them classify machines and their percentage return by
denomination but not by game (whether VP or slots). At MS, the
higher the denomionation, the higher the return. [Both MS and
Foxwoods have an overall return of 91.8%.] So the theo for .25 PE
might be higher than 6%.

I was interested in finding out what one needed to get comp concert
tickets. Ced told me they look at 2 criteria. Your present 4 month
average theo (per day), and your 1 year gross theo; you need to pass
both. The requirement varies from show to show and can vary from
day to day based on whether the artist has become more or less
popular than expected. So I asked about an average show like Dolly
Parton (now sold out of comp's). For her you needed a 4 month avg
theo of $600, and a year gross theo of $30K. For Cher it got as high
as $1500 avg theo. before it went back down. The gross theo is
generally going to be 50 times the avg theo. So they "expect" you to
gamble at least 50 days/yr; if you were there only 25, you'd have to
gamble twice as much on the days you're there. While this might be
the criteria for shows, it might similarly apply to other comps as
well. Haaljo has written you need a $35K yr gross theo for Sagamore
and $50K for Sachem cards. What is interesting that I've been told
by other hosts as well is that gambling only little on some days is
worse than not gambling at all since it will lower your 4 month avg.
If going for those cards, you might consider averaging a theo of
$700/day and $1000/day respectively.

Thanks for the excellent info. This is very surprising if true --
that MS would use a 6% theo on a 99.95% game like full-pay PE (when
played perfectly, anyway -- though even a novice could probably play
at about a 97% ER level) seems almost unbelievable. Guess they must
not be too worried about a few expert VP players, considering the
massive amount of people playing 92% ER slot machines.

Still haven't received a Sagamore card though, and my gross theo for
the last 5 months at 6% of coin-in would be right around $80,000.

--- In vpFREE_NewEngland@yahoogroups.com, "steviemcc1"
<steviemcc1@y...> wrote:

2 days ago I was at Mohegan Sun and with $7000 in action at $1 PE,

I

asked for a food comp and got $20 for Fidelia's from a host named
Judy. Yesterday, with $5900 in action I saw a host named Cedrone

and

he was very informative. I was surprised when he said you only

need

one hour of play at $5/hand (ie. 5 x $1) to be admitted into a

lounge

(sachem, feather, or arrow) and that I qualified almost every day
I've been there; and I did in fact have quite a few days where I

only

played an hour at a 450 hand/hr rate. You can get 24 hrs of lounge
access for every day that qualifies, but they will only look back

30

days. He let me see my computer screen which showed my numbers
(theos, avg's, etc.) None of the hosts who have seen my account

were

able to tell whether I was playing slots or VP; they treated it as
the same game. No where did my screen show an actual loss, just

the

theoreticals. Using simple division, and having played only $1 PE,

I

was able to determine the theo they use for this is almost exactly
6%. Now I've seen some of the reports to the State of Connecticut
and have seen them classify machines and their percentage return by
denomination but not by game (whether VP or slots). At MS, the
higher the denomionation, the higher the return. [Both MS and
Foxwoods have an overall return of 91.8%.] So the theo for .25 PE
might be higher than 6%.

I was interested in finding out what one needed to get comp concert
tickets. Ced told me they look at 2 criteria. Your present 4

month

average theo (per day), and your 1 year gross theo; you need to

pass

both. The requirement varies from show to show and can vary from
day to day based on whether the artist has become more or less
popular than expected. So I asked about an average show like Dolly
Parton (now sold out of comp's). For her you needed a 4 month avg
theo of $600, and a year gross theo of $30K. For Cher it got as

high

as $1500 avg theo. before it went back down. The gross theo is
generally going to be 50 times the avg theo. So they "expect" you

to

gamble at least 50 days/yr; if you were there only 25, you'd have

to

gamble twice as much on the days you're there. While this might be
the criteria for shows, it might similarly apply to other comps as
well. Haaljo has written you need a $35K yr gross theo for

Sagamore

and $50K for Sachem cards. What is interesting that I've been told
by other hosts as well is that gambling only little on some days is
worse than not gambling at all since it will lower your 4 month

avg.

ยทยทยท

If going for those cards, you might consider averaging a theo of
$700/day and $1000/day respectively.

--- In vpFREE_NewEngland@yahoogroups.com, "steviemcc1"
<steviemcc1@y...> wrote:

2 days ago I was at Mohegan Sun and with $7000 in action at $1 PE,

I

asked for a food comp and got $20 for Fidelia's from a host named
Judy. Yesterday, with $5900 in action I saw a host named Cedrone

and

he was very informative. I was surprised when he said you only

need

one hour of play at $5/hand (ie. 5 x $1) to be admitted into a

lounge

(sachem, feather, or arrow) and that I qualified almost every day
I've been there; and I did in fact have quite a few days where I

only

played an hour at a 450 hand/hr rate. You can get 24 hrs of

lounge

access for every day that qualifies, but they will only look back

30

days. He let me see my computer screen which showed my numbers
(theos, avg's, etc.) None of the hosts who have seen my account

were

able to tell whether I was playing slots or VP; they treated it as
the same game. No where did my screen show an actual loss, just

the

theoreticals. Using simple division, and having played only $1

PE, I

was able to determine the theo they use for this is almost exactly
6%. Now I've seen some of the reports to the State of Connecticut
and have seen them classify machines and their percentage return

by

denomination but not by game (whether VP or slots). At MS, the
higher the denomionation, the higher the return. [Both MS and
Foxwoods have an overall return of 91.8%.] So the theo for .25 PE
might be higher than 6%.

I was interested in finding out what one needed to get comp

concert

tickets. Ced told me they look at 2 criteria. Your present 4

month

average theo (per day), and your 1 year gross theo; you need to

pass

both. The requirement varies from show to show and can vary from
day to day based on whether the artist has become more or less
popular than expected. So I asked about an average show like

Dolly

Parton (now sold out of comp's). For her you needed a 4 month avg
theo of $600, and a year gross theo of $30K. For Cher it got as

high

as $1500 avg theo. before it went back down. The gross theo is
generally going to be 50 times the avg theo. So they "expect" you

to

gamble at least 50 days/yr; if you were there only 25, you'd have

to

gamble twice as much on the days you're there. While this might

be

the criteria for shows, it might similarly apply to other comps as
well. Haaljo has written you need a $35K yr gross theo for

Sagamore

and $50K for Sachem cards. What is interesting that I've been

told

by other hosts as well is that gambling only little on some days

is

worse than not gambling at all since it will lower your 4 month

avg.

If going for those cards, you might consider averaging a theo of
$700/day and $1000/day respectively.

Stevie,

Interesting information. Several years ago when I enquired, I was
told that the theo for vp was in the range of 2.5% and for slots
just over 6%. For lounge eligibility, you would qualify with either
a certain theo or, alternatively, so many hours of play. I was told
that this was 5 hrs. on $1 machines or 1hr. on $5 machines. You
would not qualify w 4 hrs. on a $1 machine playing 5 coins, but
would qualify with 1 hr. on a $5 machine playing 1 coin. Therefore
my favorite became a $10 JOB machine w an 800x RF on one coin, till
it went MIA. I believe the weekend standards for lounge passes were
increased, and eligibility was only for the 24 hrs. following play.
I subsequently stated playing under my wife's card since as a slot
player she had much higher theo for similar action.

Eligibility carrying for 30 days is good news. It could be that the
system now recognizes 5 coin play at $1 as the equivalent of 5 hrs.
at 1 coin. Alternatively the system could now be granting the same
theo for vp as slots, although that would be illogical. [However my
vp playing frind qualifies for higher level tourneys than his slot
playing wife, and his action is not twice as much, so equal theos
may be the case.] Did you actual see or were you told what your theo
was?

As far as Sagamore status, I have been told that your host proposes
you and a committee passes on the application. They are looking for
history over a couple years as well as play level, since this status
is seldom revoked once granted. As previously discussed, there is
little benefit other than immediate lounge access and parking.
However, I was recently told by my friend that they are entitled to
free hotel suite upgrades, if available. I also heard that a host
called a player as soon as he parked, saying I see you are in the
casino. Therefore, you may not want to use this parking when not
playing.

When a host has been helpful, I try to let his or her boss know. I
have done this in person, but an email or letter to the head of
player development would be appropriate. It might be more diplomatic
to say how he/she made you feel at home, than saying how he/she
disclosed the workings or the ratings system. If you don't have a
host assigned you can also ask a helpful host if he/she can be your
assigned host.

With the recent increase in the playable inventory, I have less
aversion to playing on weekends (still don't love crowds or smoke).
I will probably compliment my host on these recent enhancements.
Management personal love hearing how well their place is being
managed, and I have found that MS management and tribal members love
hearing how they are doing a better job compared to Foxwoods.

David

I came up with the 6% theo because when I gambled $7000 on day 1 and
$5900 on day 2, the host's computer screen actually showed a theo of
$420 for that day 1 and $350 for day 2. I came up with my gambling
figures by taking my points earned (rounding off) and multiplying by
$90. I played nothing else but $1 pick'em. When I've seen a host
I've said generically "I've been playing the machines" just to see if
they've been able to distinguish between VP and slots and so far they
haven't. Maybe they still could, but they probably don't care since
the theos are all that matters.

On a side note:
When I first came to MS, I use to play the european single zero
roulette wheels (only 2 of them in the high roller area of Sky) when
they were $25min. These tables give you half your money back on '0'
on even money bets, so the house edge is only 1.35% on those bets
(instead of 5.26% at a normal table). They would give you triple
points for roulette than a normal table game because the theo is
usually high, but they did not differentiate that you were on a
single zero vs double zero table. I would sit in Leffingwells
overlooking the tables and time the dealer's spin rate. It was
convenient that a 2min/spin rate resulted in a 2% comp points rate
thereby putting one ~.65% ahead on average. [Realize this is a very
low variance game when betting even money.] However, I would wait
for situations where many people would be playing and betting on
single #'s, taking forever as they keep change their minds, and the
dealer would be a slow newbie; when I would arrive, I'd often be the
only one betting red or black. It could go to 4+min/spin yielding a
4%+ comp points rate! (If you played alone it could go to
<30sec/spin.)

Then several months ago I played it and only got half my normal
points. This was when all the table games got re-evaluated and they
lowered some of the rates. I called a supervisor on the house phone
and she told me that on single zero roulette, "they had been doing it
wrong for 7 years!"!

This is an excellent report. Two years ago, I was told $9K for
lounge access on weekdays and $12K on weekends.
Haaljo in Boston

--- In vpFREE_NewEngland@yahoogroups.com, "steviemcc1"
<steviemcc1@y...> wrote:

2 days ago I was at Mohegan Sun and with $7000 in action at $1 PE,

I

asked for a food comp and got $20 for Fidelia's from a host named
Judy. Yesterday, with $5900 in action I saw a host named Cedrone

and

he was very informative. I was surprised when he said you only

need

one hour of play at $5/hand (ie. 5 x $1) to be admitted into a

lounge

--- In vpFREE_NewEngland@yahoogroups.com, "haaljo" <haaljo@y...>
wrote:

This is an excellent report. Two years ago, I was told $9K for
lounge access on weekdays and $12K on weekends.
Haaljo in Boston

--- In vpFREE_NewEngland@yahoogroups.com, "steviemcc1"
<steviemcc1@y...> wrote:
>
> 2 days ago I was at Mohegan Sun and with $7000 in action at $1

PE,

I
> asked for a food comp and got $20 for Fidelia's from a host named
> Judy. Yesterday, with $5900 in action I saw a host named Cedrone
and
> he was very informative. I was surprised when he said you only
need
> one hour of play at $5/hand (ie. 5 x $1) to be admitted into a
lounge

Went to MS tonight after work. Played for a couple of hrs. $1 PE and
JOB and 25c 10x Super Aces. Went to the lounge and explained that I
rarely play under my card, but am admitted w my Sagamore wife who is
away escorting her mother to Florida. Was told the criteria was 5hrs.
of play at dollar level, hoever the host there said the first screen
says yes or no, and in my case it was yes. The criteria has
definitely been liberalized. However, I am under the impression that,
with the computer generated yes or no, rank and file host are not
fully privy to all the criteria. Perhaps it will take a conversation
with a high priest (vp or ex. host) at an unguarded moment to
ascertain these arcane and terrible secrets.

David

Went to MS tonight after work. Played for a couple of hrs. $1 PE

and

JOB and 25c 10x Super Aces. Went to the lounge and explained that I
rarely play under my card, but am admitted w my Sagamore wife who

is

away escorting her mother to Florida. Was told the criteria was

5hrs.

of play at dollar level, hoever the host there said the first

screen

says yes or no, and in my case it was yes. The criteria has
definitely been liberalized. However, I am under the impression

that,

with the computer generated yes or no, rank and file host are not
fully privy to all the criteria. Perhaps it will take a

conversation

with a high priest (vp or ex. host) at an unguarded moment to
ascertain these arcane and terrible secrets.

David

If he told you 5 hours at the dollar level -- that makes sense.
That's the same as 1 hour at $5. He doesn't know when we say $1 PE,
we automatically assume we're putting 5 credits in at a time. I
would say the assumption (for people who don't know better, would be
$1/hand).

--- In vpFREE_NewEngland@yahoogroups.com, "haaljo" <haaljo@y...>
wrote:

This is an excellent report. Two years ago, I was told $9K for
lounge access on weekdays and $12K on weekends.
Haaljo in Boston

When they changed the player's club points from $80/1 to $90/1 at the
dollar machines and kept it at $160/1 at <dollar machines several
months ago, I asked five different people at the player's club booths
what they changed it to and I got four different answers. All of
them were wrong. I had to verify it with actual play.

Two of them thought slots & VP were different while the others
thought they were the same. Some were hesitant, while others spoke
with conviction. I don't think any of this was intentional. But
misinformation does seem to be trickled down and passed around in the
name of trying to be helpful. I think the employees only know what
they need to know to do their job. But I wouldn't rely on them to
extrapolate. I'm willing to bet you even money that most hosts don't
even know that they're using a 6% theo on $1 PE. Other people have
probably told them a different X% and they have better things to do
than verify the math. But what they do know and see are your theos
which is primarily what they need to do their job. In the case of
lounge access, the theo required might change based on how populated
they are; the computer will know how often people swipe -- just like
the way the concert minimums will change; and their could be some
room for the host to make a judgement call.