vpFREE2 Forums

MS Blackjack Tournament

#1

The person that advanced with the last hand BJ may have been vp_nbi from
this group. (He busted out early in the third round.) He was in position
one at the table and advanced out of that round in the way described. In my
second round the lady to the left of me was unconscious and made a very
stupid bet with a big lead on the last hand. Instead of having a 70%+
chance she bet way too much and reduced her chances to about 45%. By the
time it was my play on the last hand I would have needed a third 7 to go
with my pair of 7s (two other sevens on the table) and dealer to also make
21 to beat her 20 to get a tie for 1st. It did not happen! This woman also
got very lucky at the end of round three via a BJ on the last hand to get
to the final table.

···

[Original Message]
From: cmayhem2001 <omnibibulous1@comcast.net>
To: <vpFREE_Chicago@yahoogroups.com>
Date: 5/22/2005 8:21:54 AM
Subject: [vpFREE_Chicago] MS Blackjack Tournament

Well, I was about $150 shy of making the final table and placing in
the money yesterday. A frustrating improvement over the March
Tournament. My wife was playing well and had the lead in the second
round, but someone popped a blackjack on the final hand with their
stack out. She doubled up her 13 and won, but it wasn't enough.

Yes, there is luck here, but there is also advantage. It is
interesting that at least one third of each table I played at either
didn't have a firm grasp of blackjack BS, made BS adjustments at
times it wasn't necessary for them, or just plain made really poor
bets and self destructed. I played in 2 first round(I rebought)
tables where top 3 advance to next round,and on both tables very
strong chip leaders who would have been guaranteed to advance to the
next round if they just bet the minimum put their stack out on the
final hand. A distant 4th on the rebuy, I was able to capitalize on
the mistake the second time it happened.

One of my dealers was weak, to my detriment. It was a little better
organized than March, but it is still a long day. They really need
more space. Maybe if they held the whole thing upstairs in one of
the function rooms rather than in the casino?

Chandler

vpFREE Links: http://members.cox.net/vpfree/Links.htm

Yahoo! Groups Links

#2

Yes indeed, I advanced to the 3rd round by hitting a blackjack on my
forced all-in bet at the end of round 2. I then was the first to bust
out in round 3. I did everything right with regards to keeping an
accurate count, bet sizing, playing the hands correctly, watching my
opponents but it all counted for squat. Lets face it, 20 hands per
round is a farce that has nothing to do with real blackjack in which
it isn't uncommon to experience one bad shoe after another (heck, even
the MIT team had bad runs that lasted days!). In round 3 whenever it
was correct to make a large bet I got crushed, the most glaring
example being a 11 count double down losing to the dealer showing a 6
(there should really be a bad beat bonus, because if this isn't then I
don't know what is). It didn't take long to reach a point where I was
so far behind the rest of the table I was forced to make things happen
which of course they didn't. Afterwards a few spectators tried to
console me acknowledging that I played well, but just didn't get the
flops. I'm happy to say I'm cured. This was my first and last
blackjack tournament. Besides the lottery aspect of the format the
organization left something to be desired. Too crowded, smoking
allowed at tables, too much waiting, too much standing around.

I think this exemplifies what's wrong with casino run tournaments in
general. For any game that has a skill requirement be it poker,
blackjack, pai gow, video poker, etc., the tournament format is
designed to minimize or remove alltogether the effect of individual
player skill thus turning the event into a lottery. Clearly casino
management is playing the lottery card in an attempt to boost
attendance. Of course there are marquis events that are intended to
produce a real champion of the game and as such will not have their
format savaged, the WSOP being an obvious example. I do realize that
casinos have to run these events under constraints, but more thought
needs to be given as to how to make these events a more pleasant and
equitable playing experience.

--- In vpFREE_Chicago@yahoogroups.com, "Howard Stern"
<howard.w.stern@e...> wrote:

The person that advanced with the last hand BJ may have been vp_nbi from
this group. (He busted out early in the third round.) He was in position
one at the table and advanced out of that round in the way

described. In my

second round the lady to the left of me was unconscious and made a very
stupid bet with a big lead on the last hand. Instead of having a 70%+
chance she bet way too much and reduced her chances to about 45%. By the
time it was my play on the last hand I would have needed a third 7 to go
with my pair of 7s (two other sevens on the table) and dealer to

also make

21 to beat her 20 to get a tie for 1st. It did not happen! This

woman also

got very lucky at the end of round three via a BJ on the last hand

to get

···

to the final table.

> [Original Message]
> From: cmayhem2001 <omnibibulous1@c...>
> To: <vpFREE_Chicago@yahoogroups.com>
> Date: 5/22/2005 8:21:54 AM
> Subject: [vpFREE_Chicago] MS Blackjack Tournament
>
> Well, I was about $150 shy of making the final table and placing in
> the money yesterday. A frustrating improvement over the March
> Tournament. My wife was playing well and had the lead in the second
> round, but someone popped a blackjack on the final hand with their
> stack out. She doubled up her 13 and won, but it wasn't enough.
>
> Yes, there is luck here, but there is also advantage. It is
> interesting that at least one third of each table I played at either
> didn't have a firm grasp of blackjack BS, made BS adjustments at
> times it wasn't necessary for them, or just plain made really poor
> bets and self destructed. I played in 2 first round(I rebought)
> tables where top 3 advance to next round,and on both tables very
> strong chip leaders who would have been guaranteed to advance to the
> next round if they just bet the minimum put their stack out on the
> final hand. A distant 4th on the rebuy, I was able to capitalize on
> the mistake the second time it happened.
>
> One of my dealers was weak, to my detriment. It was a little better
> organized than March, but it is still a long day. They really need
> more space. Maybe if they held the whole thing upstairs in one of
> the function rooms rather than in the casino?
>
>
> Chandler
>
>
>
>
>
> vpFREE Links: http://members.cox.net/vpfree/Links.htm
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>

#3

I like first position. If no one busts out it leaves you just behind the
button on the final hand. You are right. Some of us probably competed at
the same table. If anyone here beat me, no hard feelings. I'll have
another shot at you in July;-)

In the final hand of the second round there was some string betting that
worked to my disadvantage. I was a strong second and the only competitive
stack, but I still needed to win and the chip leader to lose to beat her. I
got lucky and drew my stiff to 21. The dealer took out the chip leader when
he flipped another face card for 20. For the 3rd round all I needed was to
win the final hand and the dealer not to bust, because one of the chip
leaders took himself out with, I think, an ill advised double. It grows
fuzzy, but I'm pretty sure I made a tactical mistake on the final hand. I
wish I could see film or some notation so I could critique myself.

Chandler

···

-----Original Message-----
From: vpFREE_Chicago@yahoogroups.com
[mailto:vpFREE_Chic…@…com]On Behalf Of Howard Stern
Sent: Sunday, May 22, 2005 10:14 AM
To: vpFREE_Chicago@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [vpFREE_Chicago] MS Blackjack Tournament

The person that advanced with the last hand BJ may have been vp_nbi from
this group. (He busted out early in the third round.) He was in position
one at the table and advanced out of that round in the way described. In my
second round the lady to the left of me was unconscious and made a very
stupid bet with a big lead on the last hand. Instead of having a 70%+
chance she bet way too much and reduced her chances to about 45%. By the
time it was my play on the last hand I would have needed a third 7 to go
with my pair of 7s (two other sevens on the table) and dealer to also make
21 to beat her 20 to get a tie for 1st. It did not happen! This woman also
got very lucky at the end of round three via a BJ on the last hand to get
to the final table.

#4

I don't think this tournament minimizes skill. At least I'm not sure it
does. As a tournament newbie I won't make great claims of any special
wisdom here. It definitely changes the usual skill sets required from
"normal" advantage gambling endeavors, which is not surprising since the
objectives (especially in blackjack) are entirely different. If I play vp
at a 1% advantage for a day and lose my ass, am I to roll my eyes to the
heavens and give up because my well practiced strategy didn't result in a
victory? If so I would have given up vp long ago. It's just one day of
gambling and the fact that one loses even with an edge is not all that
unusual. The same attitude should be taken with tournament play. That
tournament is just one day of gambling. Even if I were paying the entry fee
I like my chances over time against the competition at MS... and I consider
my tournament skills to be pretty rudimentary. So long as it is comped and
I'm having fun, I will continue to play in them.

With regards to the organization, I agree with you entirely and could easily
see how this would dissuade someone from participating even with an
advantage. MS could really do better. I'll reiterate that they would do
better to hold the tournament off the casino floor.

Chandler

···

-----Original Message-----
From: vpFREE_Chicago@yahoogroups.com
[mailto:vpFREE_Chic…@…com]On Behalf Of vp_nbi
Sent: Sunday, May 22, 2005 12:44 PM
To: vpFREE_Chicago@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [vpFREE_Chicago] Re: MS Blackjack Tournament

I think this exemplifies what's wrong with casino run tournaments in
general. For any game that has a skill requirement be it poker,
blackjack, pai gow, video poker, etc., the tournament format is
designed to minimize or remove alltogether the effect of individual
player skill thus turning the event into a lottery. Clearly casino
management is playing the lottery card in an attempt to boost
attendance. Of course there are marquis events that are intended to
produce a real champion of the game and as such will not have their
format savaged, the WSOP being an obvious example. I do realize that
casinos have to run these events under constraints, but more thought
needs to be given as to how to make these events a more pleasant and
equitable playing experience.

#5

I tend to agree with Chandler's post below, I think the blackjack
tournaments probably provide the best advantage play at Majestic. I
would divide the players into 3 groups: 1. no clue(70%) 2. half a
clue (25%) 3. expert(5%) the percentages are complete guesses. I
would put myself in the second category (half a clue) but like the
old saying in the world of the blind the one eye man is King, having
half a clue is quite powerfull. In my few attemps at the tournament I
have seen many clueless players destroy a commanding lead by poor bet
placement. I would estimate (wild guess) that having half clue easily
doubles your chance of making it to the final table, remember at $60
buy-in 144 players = $8,640 for $10,000 pool, for the easy comp, its
a great deal. I'll mention again there is a web site that covers the
basice strategy.

--- In vpFREE_Chicago@yahoogroups.com, "Chandler"
<omnibibulous1@c...> wrote:

I don't think this tournament minimizes skill. At least I'm not

sure it

does. As a tournament newbie I won't make great claims of any

special

wisdom here. It definitely changes the usual skill sets required

from

"normal" advantage gambling endeavors, which is not surprising

since the

objectives (especially in blackjack) are entirely different. If I

play vp

at a 1% advantage for a day and lose my ass, am I to roll my eyes

to the

heavens and give up because my well practiced strategy didn't

result in a

victory? If so I would have given up vp long ago. It's just one

day of

gambling and the fact that one loses even with an edge is not all

that

unusual. The same attitude should be taken with tournament play.

That

tournament is just one day of gambling. Even if I were paying the

entry fee

I like my chances over time against the competition at MS... and I

consider

my tournament skills to be pretty rudimentary. So long as it is

comped and

I'm having fun, I will continue to play in them.

With regards to the organization, I agree with you entirely and

could easily

see how this would dissuade someone from participating even with an
advantage. MS could really do better. I'll reiterate that they

would do

···

better to hold the tournament off the casino floor.

Chandler

-----Original Message-----
From: vpFREE_Chicago@yahoogroups.com
[mailto:vpFREE_Chic…@…com]On Behalf Of vp_nbi
Sent: Sunday, May 22, 2005 12:44 PM
To: vpFREE_Chicago@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [vpFREE_Chicago] Re: MS Blackjack Tournament

I think this exemplifies what's wrong with casino run tournaments in
general. For any game that has a skill requirement be it poker,
blackjack, pai gow, video poker, etc., the tournament format is
designed to minimize or remove alltogether the effect of individual
player skill thus turning the event into a lottery. Clearly casino
management is playing the lottery card in an attempt to boost
attendance. Of course there are marquis events that are intended to
produce a real champion of the game and as such will not have their
format savaged, the WSOP being an obvious example. I do realize that
casinos have to run these events under constraints, but more thought
needs to be given as to how to make these events a more pleasant and
equitable playing experience.