vpFREE2 Forums

More on Bill Zender

#1

Thank you for your insults.

Audacious? Do you know the definition of the term? My post was a serious
comment, based on many years of serious BJ play. I do not think basic
etiquette
is "BS", as you so thoughtfully
characterize it, but if embracing rudeness is a vital component of your
casino experience, your umbrage is understandable.

Alas, your comments are consistent with a recent trtend on this board ...
recreational players, no matter their levels of skill or experience are to
be denigrated ..."ploppies" seems to be the currently favored derisive slur
... although in the next breath some who present themselves as "pros" lament
that not enough ploppies have been plopping .... and thus denying the
self-appointed elite the opportunity to profit from the sacrifice of the
uninformed.

···

On Jul 20, 2011 11:54 AM, "ma18ks" <89109.nv@gmail.com> wrote:

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

#2

Rprosdc wrote:

My post was a serious comment, based on many years of serious BJ play.

I understand the "feeling of comraderie" on a blackjack table. I've
experienced it and, although I've almost never played craps, from the
screams I hear every so often, I'm sure it happens there, too. I have
a certain objection to a newcomer interfering with that feeling, also.
But you're also making a statement about mathematics that ma18ks and I
disagree with. When you wrote that "all of a sudden some rube plops
down and makes an outlandish bet or play that effectively the tables'
luck," I assume "changes" should have come after "effectively" and
"worse" was implied. Maybe, a few times when you've experienced this
change in feeling, your luck also changed for the worse. Do you have
a theory for how that happened? Can you show, scientifically, that
the change in mood and the change in luck wasn't a coincidence? Might
the change in luck have caused the change in feeling? Doesn't the
theory that such things have no correlation, so that luck would change
for the better after such a change in mood as often as it changed for
the worse, even if, in your experience, it has always changed for the
worse, make intuitive sense to you? If a scientific study were made
after, say, 1000 such mood worsenings, how many of them would show a
worsening of luck? ma18ks and I would estimate 500.

#3

I made no statement about math ... in any of the posts in this thread.
Please don't put words in my virtual mouth. For what it is worth, I agree
that the play of other individuals at the table, in the long run, has no
impact on my success. As long as they don't jump into the game mid-shoe.

What I object to, and did comment on, was mid-shoe entry...it is the
intrusion into the shoe that bothers me ... not the "good" or "bad" play
that the intruder exhibits. It is a matter of BJ etiquette.

I know the industry came up the mid-shoe entry bar to prevent "Wonging".
Every now and then the suits make an error that hurts them and helps
players...barring mid-shoe entry was one of them.

···

On Wed, Jul 20, 2011 at 3:12 PM, 007 <007@embarqmail.com> wrote:

**

Rprosdc wrote:

>My post was a serious comment, based on many years of serious BJ play.

I understand the "feeling of comraderie" on a blackjack table. I've
experienced it and, although I've almost never played craps, from the
screams I hear every so often, I'm sure it happens there, too. I have
a certain objection to a newcomer interfering with that feeling, also.
But you're also making a statement about mathematics that ma18ks and I
disagree with. When you wrote that "all of a sudden some rube plops

down and makes an outlandish bet or play that effectively the tables'
luck," I assume "changes" should have come after "effectively" and
"worse" was implied. Maybe, a few times when you've experienced this
change in feeling, your luck also changed for the worse. Do you have
a theory for how that happened? Can you show, scientifically, that
the change in mood and the change in luck wasn't a coincidence? Might
the change in luck have caused the change in feeling? Doesn't the
theory that such things have no correlation, so that luck would change
for the better after such a change in mood as often as it changed for
the worse, even if, in your experience, it has always changed for the
worse, make intuitive sense to you? If a scientific study were made
after, say, 1000 such mood worsenings, how many of them would show a
worsening of luck? ma18ks and I would estimate 500.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

#4

Your post seems to be saying that when someone makes a post that is ignorant,demonstrably false, and purely based on selective memory, voodoo and superstition, that it is wrong for someone more knowledgeable to point this out.

I disagree with that point of view.
The point of this board is to spread information or, at the least, not spread false information.

So let me point out that your theory that a new player entering mid-shoe causes bad luck is ignorant, demonstrably false, and purely based on selective memory, voodoo, and superstition.

···

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, Rprosdc <rprosdc@...> wrote:

Thank you for your insults.

Audacious? Do you know the definition of the term? My post was a serious
comment, based on many years of serious BJ play. I do not think basic
etiquette
is "BS", as you so thoughtfully
characterize it, but if embracing rudeness is a vital component of your
casino experience, your umbrage is understandable.

Alas, your comments are consistent with a recent trtend on this board ...
recreational players, no matter their levels of skill or experience are to
be denigrated ..."ploppies" seems to be the currently favored derisive slur
... although in the next breath some who present themselves as "pros" lament
that not enough ploppies have been plopping .... and thus denying the
self-appointed elite the opportunity to profit from the sacrifice of the
uninformed.

#5

Rprosdc wrote:

I made no statement about math ... in any of the posts in this thread.

Yes, you did, that you didn't explicitly used the words "math,"
"mathematics," or "numbers," etc., or were aware of it,
nothwithstanding, just as you did in the comment to which I replied
below.

Please don't put words in my virtual mouth. For what it is worth, I agree
that the play of other individuals at the table, in the long run, has no
impact on my success. As long as they don't jump into the game mid-shoe.

This is a statement about mathematics. What is your theory about how
players jumping into a shoe in the middle affects the long run value
of the other players? If you don't have one, why do you believe it?
3 anecdotes?

#6

It's common to come across the voodoo that a new player joining a shoe in progress causes one to lose.

But I just noticed that you've added to the already gigantic trove of bj superstition - This is the first time I've seen it stated that making "an outlandish bet..effectively [changes] the tables' luck."

···

In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, Rprosdc <rprosdc@...> wrote:

I am sure I am not the only person who occasionally finds him or herself at
a table populated by a group that has been playing together for a number of
shoes, developed a rhythm and comeraderie, and to its delight finds itself
in the middle of a warm or hot shoe ... when all of a sudden some rube plops
down and makes an outlandish bet or play that effectively the tables' luck.

#7

The changing of the order of the deal cards by mid shoe entry has no affect on the house vs. player outcome except in the mind of the superstitious player and the minimal change due to an additional player. My biggest run was in Elko when two novice players entered mid shoe and sat on third and the position to his right. Every bad play resulted in a win for me. This "luck" continued for an hour until they and I left.

···

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, Rprosdc <rprosdc@...> wrote:

I made no statement about math ... in any of the posts in this thread.
Please don't put words in my virtual mouth. For what it is worth, I agree
that the play of other individuals at the table, in the long run, has no
impact on my success. As long as they don't jump into the game mid-shoe.

What I object to, and did comment on, was mid-shoe entry...it is the
intrusion into the shoe that bothers me ... not the "good" or "bad" play
that the intruder exhibits. It is a matter of BJ etiquette.

I know the industry came up the mid-shoe entry bar to prevent "Wonging".
Every now and then the suits make an error that hurts them and helps
players...barring mid-shoe entry was one of them.

On Wed, Jul 20, 2011 at 3:12 PM, 007 <007@...> wrote:

> **
>
>
> Rprosdc wrote:
>
> >My post was a serious comment, based on many years of serious BJ play.
>
> I understand the "feeling of comraderie" on a blackjack table. I've
> experienced it and, although I've almost never played craps, from the
> screams I hear every so often, I'm sure it happens there, too. I have
> a certain objection to a newcomer interfering with that feeling, also.
> But you're also making a statement about mathematics that ma18ks and I
> disagree with. When you wrote that "all of a sudden some rube plops
>
> down and makes an outlandish bet or play that effectively the tables'
> luck," I assume "changes" should have come after "effectively" and
> "worse" was implied. Maybe, a few times when you've experienced this
> change in feeling, your luck also changed for the worse. Do you have
> a theory for how that happened? Can you show, scientifically, that
> the change in mood and the change in luck wasn't a coincidence? Might
> the change in luck have caused the change in feeling? Doesn't the
> theory that such things have no correlation, so that luck would change
> for the better after such a change in mood as often as it changed for
> the worse, even if, in your experience, it has always changed for the
> worse, make intuitive sense to you? If a scientific study were made
> after, say, 1000 such mood worsenings, how many of them would show a
> worsening of luck? ma18ks and I would estimate 500.
>
>
>

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

#8

The term "audacity" was used under the assumption that one of the primary purposes of this forum is to distribute useful information on the subject of advantage play. My reply to your post was less about calling you out. Rather, it was intended to elicit a response from my fellow members who understand - or at least embrace - the basic tenets of mathematics, and disregard misinformation and other "voodoo." The number of quality replies is encouraging.

#9

If I had any reason to think that you'd read my note in the first place, I'd
take your note a bit more seriously. But instead you create another strawman
and then flail at it. I have not challenged any of the math that you feel I
do not understand, and find it odd that you'd consider my opipnion to be
"voodoo". As near as I can tell we both subscribe to the same "in the
long-range" bible.

If you are lucky enough to never have been at a smoothly working BJ table,
only to have some drunk or bling festooned 20-something stagger up to tour
table and disrupt its flow, I am happy for you ... sonewhat incredulous, but
happy.

···

On Thu, Jul 21, 2011 at 2:08 PM, ma18ks <89109.nv@gmail.com> wrote:

**

The term "audacity" was used under the assumption that one of the primary
purposes of this forum is to distribute useful information on the subject of
advantage play. My reply to your post was less about calling you out.
Rather, it was intended to elicit a response from my fellow members who
understand - or at least embrace - the basic tenets of mathematics, and
disregard misinformation and other "voodoo." The number of quality replies
is encouraging.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

#10

My apologies...I thought your note was addressed to me alone....truly sorry
about my response

···

On Thu, Jul 21, 2011 at 2:46 PM, Rprosdc <rprosdc@gmail.com> wrote:

If I had any reason to think that you'd read my note in the first place,
I'd take your note a bit more seriously. But instead you create another
strawman and then flail at it. I have not challenged any of the math that
you feel I do not understand, and find it odd that you'd consider my
opipnion to be "voodoo". As near as I can tell we both subscribe to the same
"in the long-range" bible.

If you are lucky enough to never have been at a smoothly working BJ table,
only to have some drunk or bling festooned 20-something stagger up to tour
table and disrupt its flow, I am happy for you ... sonewhat incredulous, but
happy.

  On Thu, Jul 21, 2011 at 2:08 PM, ma18ks <89109.nv@gmail.com> wrote:

**

The term "audacity" was used under the assumption that one of the primary
purposes of this forum is to distribute useful information on the subject of
advantage play. My reply to your post was less about calling you out.
Rather, it was intended to elicit a response from my fellow members who
understand - or at least embrace - the basic tenets of mathematics, and
disregard misinformation and other "voodoo." The number of quality replies
is encouraging.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

#11

You cannot seem to understand that it is not "your" table and that there is
NO flow.

···

On Thu, Jul 21, 2011 at 2:46 PM, Rprosdc <rprosdc@gmail.com> wrote:

**

If I had any reason to think that you'd read my note in the first place,
I'd
take your note a bit more seriously. But instead you create another
strawman
and then flail at it. I have not challenged any of the math that you feel I
do not understand, and find it odd that you'd consider my opipnion to be
"voodoo". As near as I can tell we both subscribe to the same "in the
long-range" bible.

If you are lucky enough to never have been at a smoothly working BJ table,
only to have some drunk or bling festooned 20-something stagger up to tour
table and disrupt its flow, I am happy for you ... sonewhat incredulous,
but
happy.

On Thu, Jul 21, 2011 at 2:08 PM, ma18ks <89109.nv@gmail.com> wrote:

> **
>
>
>
>
> The term "audacity" was used under the assumption that one of the primary
> purposes of this forum is to distribute useful information on the subject
of
> advantage play. My reply to your post was less about calling you out.
> Rather, it was intended to elicit a response from my fellow members who
> understand - or at least embrace - the basic tenets of mathematics, and
> disregard misinformation and other "voodoo." The number of quality
replies
> is encouraging.
>
>
>

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

--
Jack

Tips to keep private email addresses out of the hands of spammers:
1. Avoid giving your or anyone else's email address to any web site.
2. Instead of forwarding email, cut and paste the text or edit to remove
addresses.
3. For group emails, use the "bcc:" (Blind Carbon Copy) field instead of
"to:".
(Put your own address or a fake address in the "to:" field).
4. Want to do more? Attach this text as a custom signature to the bottom of
all your outgoing email.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

#12

Since anyone "Wonging in" would most likely be betting very high to take advantage of the excess 10s in the shoe or deck, barring mid shoe entry would be good for both the casino and the players currently playing at the table since it would decrease the amount that the casino would lose while players have the advantage. On the other hand, if players are allowed to "Wong in" it sends a message to players who aren't counting.

···

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, Rprosdc <rprosdc@...> wrote:

I know the industry came up the mid-shoe entry bar to prevent "Wonging".
Every now and then the suits make an error that hurts them and helps
players...barring mid-shoe entry was one of them.

#13

"only to have some drunk or bling festooned 20-something stagger up to tour table and disrupt its flow..."

"flow" is Voodoo.

In one of your first posts you clearly state that someone entering mid-shoe creates bad luck (or words clearly to that effect).

After you were corrected, you changed your problem with mid-shoe entry to bad manners on the part of the entrant.

Now you've retreated to a smoothly functioning table and apparently the problem now is the "flow" has been "disrupted"...

···

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, Rprosdc <rprosdc@...> wrote:

If I had any reason to think that you'd read my note in the first place, I'd
take your note a bit more seriously. But instead you create another strawman
and then flail at it. I have not challenged any of the math that you feel I
do not understand, and find it odd that you'd consider my opipnion to be
"voodoo". As near as I can tell we both subscribe to the same "in the
long-range" bible.

If you are lucky enough to never have been at a smoothly working BJ table,
only to have some drunk or bling festooned 20-something stagger up to tour
table and disrupt its flow, I am happy for you ... sonewhat incredulous, but
happy.

#14

**

"only to have some drunk or bling festooned 20-something stagger up to tour
table and disrupt its flow..."

"flow" is Voodoo.

I am saddened to learn that you've never been at a friendly table where
players, dealers and sometimes even the house are having a good time.. Some
may be winning, some losing ...but all are having an enjoyable session. You
may call it "voodoo" but it actually does happen ... and it is easily
disrupted by the sorts of anti-social intrusion I mentioned.

  In one of your first posts you clearly state that someone entering
mid-shoe creates bad luck (or words clearly to that effect).

No I said "effectively the tables luck". I erroneously left out the word
"changes", an error caught earlier by another reader. I did not suggest that
the luck changed for the better or worse -- my point was, and is, that such
ad hoc intrusions inevitably alter the hands dealt after the intrusion.

But I followed that up (and closed) with:

"It should be a matter of common courtesy. If I see a seat at table that I
want to join, I wait until the next shoe to start playing....unless invited
to join by those already in the game."

Finally you accuse me of grumbling that "the"flow" has been "disrupted""

I plead guilty to that charge --- although you wish to perjoratively
characterize respect for other players as "voodoo".

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

···

On Thu, Jul 21, 2011 at 6:08 PM, jwboothjw <traveller88888@hotmail.com>wrote:

#15

Rprosdc wrote:

such ad hoc intrusions inevitably alter the hands dealt after the intrusion.

But anything does that. Someone sneezing might change a player's
decision or how the dealer shuffles, thus changing the outcomes. How
does any of that affect anyone's long run success?

#16

Don't worry about the harsh comments rprosdc. Etiquette is a foreign word to many of these pros.

They are the same pros who light up a cigarette without asking. They are the same pros who don't wash their hands after using the toilet in their rush to the buffet line.

Wonging in is not only rude, but it hurts the current players because it limits the number of hands playable before the next shuffle.

Do you think any of these pros care about how many hands you get to play in the current deck? Do you think any of these pros care about your health while they blow smoke in your face. Do you think any of these pros care about the added flavor of their toilet seat being transferred to the buffet spoon?

#17

Don't worry about the harsh comments rprosdc. Etiquette is a foreign word to many of these pros.

In all this fray I just had to interject some humor and history.

"Etiquette" actually is a foreign word unless you are French, which struck me as funny.

Dictionary.com had this to say:
1750, from Fr. étiquette "prescribed behavior," from O.Fr. estiquette "label, ticket" (see ticket). The sense development in French perhaps is from small cards written or printed with instructions for how to behave properly at court (cf. It. etichetta, Sp. etiqueta), and/or from behavior instructions written on a soldier's billet for lodgings (the main sense of the O.Fr. word).

This from Word-Origins:
Etiquette is, almost literally, `just the ticket'. The primary meanings of French étiquette are `ticket' and `label' – and indeed it is the source of English ticket. A particular application of it in former times was to a small card which had written or printed on it directions as to how to behave properly at court – hence it came to mean `prescribed code of social behavior'.

~FK

···

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "skiallsix" <emailscot@...> wrote:

#18

These comments apply to many gamblers in general and are not limited to pros/ AP's. Courtesy in a casino is less prevalent than in normal situations. IMHO.

···

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "skiallsix" <emailscot@...> wrote:

Don't worry about the harsh comments rprosdc. Etiquette is a foreign word to many of these pros.

They are the same pros who light up a cigarette without asking. They are the same pros who don't wash their hands after using the toilet in their rush to the buffet line.

Wonging in is not only rude, but it hurts the current players because it limits the number of hands playable before the next shuffle.

Do you think any of these pros care about how many hands you get to play in the current deck? Do you think any of these pros care about your health while they blow smoke in your face. Do you think any of these pros care about the added flavor of their toilet seat being transferred to the buffet spoon?

#19

This was funny. And I don't know whether it's the "pros" who do this, but I know it is so true that a large percent of casino gamblers do not wash their hands after using the restroom. Not that I'm looking for this, lol, but once you notice this phenomenon in the first place you can't help but notice it forever. And people are pigs, I swear I have seen people not only skip washing their hands after using the urinal but also after coming out of a stall. OMG!

I have to use a paper towel after drying my hands just to touch the door to exit the restroom because I'm imagining all of the filth on the door handle. So gross! And these people are going right back to the slot machines or the poker table. Can you imagine the microscopic filth on poker chips? Yech!

Do you remember the episode of Seinfeld where the restaurant owner didn't wash his hands? Ha ha, that was funny.

···

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "skiallsix" <emailscot@...> wrote:

They are the same pros who light up a cigarette without asking. They are the same pros who don't wash their hands after using the toilet in their rush to the buffet line.

#20

I find it disrespectful for someone to ask me to wait till the next shoe before sitting down.

···

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, Rprosdc <rprosdc@...> wrote:

On Thu, Jul 21, 2011 at 6:08 PM, jwboothjw <traveller88888@...>wrote:

> **
>
>
>
>
> "only to have some drunk or bling festooned 20-something stagger up to tour
> table and disrupt its flow..."
>
> "flow" is Voodoo.
>

I am saddened to learn that you've never been at a friendly table where
players, dealers and sometimes even the house are having a good time.. Some
may be winning, some losing ...but all are having an enjoyable session. You
may call it "voodoo" but it actually does happen ... and it is easily
disrupted by the sorts of anti-social intrusion I mentioned.

> In one of your first posts you clearly state that someone entering
> mid-shoe creates bad luck (or words clearly to that effect).
>

No I said "effectively the tables luck". I erroneously left out the word
"changes", an error caught earlier by another reader. I did not suggest that
the luck changed for the better or worse -- my point was, and is, that such
ad hoc intrusions inevitably alter the hands dealt after the intrusion.

But I followed that up (and closed) with:

"It should be a matter of common courtesy. If I see a seat at table that I
want to join, I wait until the next shoe to start playing....unless invited
to join by those already in the game."

Finally you accuse me of grumbling that "the"flow" has been "disrupted""

I plead guilty to that charge --- although you wish to perjoratively
characterize respect for other players as "voodoo".