vpFREE2 Forums

Monticello Experience

My son and I took a ride up to "Mighty M Gaming" at Monticello
Raceway last weekend, just to check out the racino there. As some of
you must already know, they have class II video lottery terminals, in
video slot and video poker formats.

Now, I'm a traditional video poker buff. (No, that doesn't mean that
I play VP in the buff!) I enjoy the mental aspect of the game, and
the fact that what I do has an effect on the outcome of the hand. I
knew going in that at Monticello, my decisions would be meaningless,
since on a VLT the outcome of the hand is determined by the central
computer as soon as the hand is initiated. Nevertheless, I wanted to
experience what it was like to play VP on a VLT, so I threw a twenty
into an IGT quarter DB machine, and played (GASP) one coin at a time.

I knew that if I were to be dealt a winning hand, I could discard it,
and I would get, at a minimum, the same type of winning hand on the
draw. But I wanted to experience that for myself, so the first time
I was dealt a pair of jacks, I threw them away. Sure enough, I got
another paying pair on the draw. Shortly thereafter, I was dealt
trips. Ditched 'em, got trips back. Same thing happened when I was
dealt straights, flushes, and full houses. It wasn't a surprise, but
there was something curiously humorous about it.

I had heard about the "match card" feature on VP VLTs, which allows
the machine to pay you what you're supposed to win even if your
discard decision makes it impossible for the machine to give you the
final hand that you were supposed to get. I don't know if anyone has
posted this before, but IGT has come up with an interesting variation
on that feature. A couple of times, I was dealt an open straight
draw, along with a low pair. Being the trained DB player, I kept the
straight draw. Apparently, I was supposed to get trips, but that
wasn't possible holding four cards to a straight. The one card draw
paired me up, and then a magic lamp appeared at the bottom of the
screen, a genie came out, walked across the cards, and changed one of
them to give me my trips. To the uneducated, this looks like a great
thing....sometimes a losing hand is turned into a winner!

A couple of machines to my left, a couple were playing a deuces wild
machine. On every hand, they were discussing what the best play
would be. For a while, I was just laughing to myself, because I knew
it didn't matter. Then, I had the urge to tell them....but I fought
it off. I didn't want to ruin their fun. However, when someone came
by and commented that the 9/7 DB pay table was better than what they
offer at Mohegan Sun or Foxwoods, I had to explain that the pay table
on these machines is absolutely meaningless when it comes to
determining the machine's payback percentage. It took about ten
minutes of explanation, along with discarding five winning hands and
getting the same winners back on the draw, to convince the guy.

I had fully expected that I would not enjoy playing the VLTs, since
my affinity for VP is based upon the mental aspect of the game. I
was right. Playing the VLTs is just putting in money and pushing
buttons. Not mentally stimulating at all. Not fun, except for
listening to neighbors who don't understand how the games work.

On the whole, Mighty M Gaming is an attractive place. It's a non-
smoking facility, very attractive and very clean, with comfortable
seating at the machines. The buffet isn't what Vegas players are
used to. The selections are very limited. I can't figure the logic
behind some of the prices at the food court. Plain bagel, $1. Bagel
with butter, $2. (How much butter do they put on???) Bagel with
cream cheese, $3. It ain't VP heaven. For slot players, though,
it's a nice place.

Just to set the record straight, and with no offense intended you have a
small mistake here. Both Washington State and New York (the only two I know
for certain have this type of VLT) are Class III jurisdictions. Unlike
Class II machines that play a Bingo game behind the scenes these machines
actually work like a scratch-off lottery ticket under the hood.

I know it's really complicated, but here is essentially the breakdown:
First, casinos are broken down by Indian Casinos and non-Indian Casinos.
Indian Casinos are in jurisdictions that are either Class II or Class III,
depending on state law. (However, the lines are blurring. Although Florida
is a Class II state the Seminoles in Tampa have announced they are going to
put in Class III games. If successful, all bets are off (to coin a
phrase)). Class II jurisdictions only permit Bingo, punch-cards and
(sometimes) player-banked games. No compact with the State is required.
Class III jurisdictions permit Nevada-style games as long as 1. there is a
compact signed with the governor and 2. the game is not specifically
prohibited in the state. The second point is why there are no
dice-controlled crap games in California.

Second, non-Indian casinos support either Nevada-style slots or VLT's.
There was a time when it appeared that you could differentiate these by
where the RNG resided, either in the machine itself or on a central server.
Unfortunately, not so. Essentially, you cannot tell how a machine will
function based on whether it is a Nevada-style slot or a VLT. You must know
the rules for your State. Although I have not done the research to verify
this there is no reason why a racino with VLT's cannot have a video poker
game dealt fairly from a 52-card deck. And, according to a manufacturer I
spoke to at last year's Global Gaming Expo there are VLT's with independent
game chips including RNG's.

Finally, although no Nevada-style jurisdiction in the US does this YET,
there are systems in place where the machine can download a new game at
will from a central server. It is unclear whether the processing takes
place in the machine or on the server but it doesn't really matter. IF any
US regulators approve this system, it WILL be possible for an operator to
press the (currently) mythical switch and tighten or loosen all the
machines on the floor.

Bill

···

At 09:10 AM 05/08/2005, you wrote:

My son and I took a ride up to "Mighty M Gaming" at Monticello
Raceway last weekend, just to check out the racino there. As some of
you must already know, they have class II video lottery terminals, in
video slot and video poker formats.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

My son and I took a ride up to "Mighty M Gaming" at Monticello
Raceway last weekend, just to check out the racino there. As some
of you must already know, they have class II video lottery
terminals, in video slot and video poker format Now, I'm a
traditional video poker buff. (No, that doesn't mean that I play
VP in the buff!) I enjoy the mental aspect of the game, and the
fact that what I do has an effect on the outcome of the hand. I
knew going in that at Monticello, my decisions would be
meaningless, since on a VLT the outcome of the hand is determined
by the central computer as soon as the hand is initiated.
Nevertheless, I wanted to experience what it was like to play VP on
a VLT, so I threw a twenty into an IGT quarter DB machine, and
played (GASP) one coin at a time. I knew that if I were to be dealt
a winning hand, I could discard it, and I would get, at a minimum,
the same type of winning hand on the draw. But I wanted to
experience that for myself, so the first time I was dealt a pair of
jacks, I threw them away. Sure enough, I got another paying pair
on the draw. Shortly therewas dealt straights, flushes, and full
houses. It wasn't a surprize.........

                <snip>

···

In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "wishiwuzinvegas" <pelotari1672@y..wrote:

-----------------------------------------------

Hi there "wishiwuz",

I enjoyed your report immensely. I've never played a VLT but it
sounds like harmless fun, especially at 25 cents a hand. Did
you wind up ahead for the session?

Thanks for sharing your experience with this type of "vp".

Regards,

Babe

Mark.....there were no markings on the screen that would identify the
machines as VLTs. I did not SEE any markings on the glass, either, but
I didn't really look that carefully.

Babe.....I managed to lose $20 playing one coin at a time, and then
another $20 playing two coins at a time. Then I lost my desire to
play....lol

Bill.....no offense taken. Thanks for the clarification.
Interestingly, I had sent an e-mail to Mighty M a few months ago,
asking about the type of machines they have and the overall payback. I
don't have their reply saved any more, but I seem to remember that they
said that their machines were Class II VLTs. I could be wrong, though.

:slight_smile:
Perry

Perry,

At least some people in the industry refer to the Washington State machines
as "Class II 1/2". Monticello probably thinks of theirs similarly and might
have mistakenly referred to them as Class II. Most people in the industry
don't really understand the differences.

B

···

At 06:59 AM 05/10/2005, you wrote:

Bill.....no offense taken. Thanks for the clarification.
Interestingly, I had sent an e-mail to Mighty M a few months ago,
asking about the type of machines they have and the overall payback. I
don't have their reply saved any more, but I seem to remember that they
said that their machines were Class II VLTs. I could be wrong, though.

:slight_smile:
Perry

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

I wonder if this would run afoul of Nevada's existing technical
standards (reg 14 from the NGC), wherein section 2.010 (2) limits
payout percentage changes of > 1% (upon switch selection). The
obvious out is subsection (1) which allows a change >1% when making a
hardware or software change, but the process for the S/W change
(section 1.080) is pretty onerous. Subsection 4 of section 1.080
requires that any network initiated change to the control program be
blessed by the chairman and may be considered a gaming device in and
of itself.

That's not to say that the regs won't change or be blessed as allowed
now, just that it looks like a pain for the Nevada operators at present.

...

Finally, although no Nevada-style jurisdiction in the US does this YET,
there are systems in place where the machine can download a new game at
will from a central server. It is unclear whether the processing takes
place in the machine or on the server but it doesn't really matter.

IF any

US regulators approve this system, it WILL be possible for an

operator to

···

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, Bill Coleman <vphobby2@c...> wrote:

press the (currently) mythical switch and tighten or loosen all the
machines on the floor.

Thanks for sharing. Your post lays to rest many many previous posts that say the following:

"Trust any IGT machine 100% no matter where you find it . ' IGT does not make chips/machines - shipped from Nevada to other states - that do not pass Nevada laws for true Random generation' "

I've suspected for quite a while that they indeed do!
regards...Tom

···

----- Original Message ----- From: "wishiwuzinvegas" <pelotari1672@yahoo.com>
To: <vpFREE@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Sunday, May 08, 2005 12:10 PM
Subject: [vpFREE] Monticello Experience

My son and I took a ride up to "Mighty M Gaming" at Monticello
Raceway last weekend, just to check out the racino there. As some of
you must already know, they have class II video lottery terminals, in
video slot and video poker formats.

Now, I'm a traditional video poker buff. (No, that doesn't mean that
I play VP in the buff!) I enjoy the mental aspect of the game, and
the fact that what I do has an effect on the outcome of the hand. I
knew going in that at Monticello, my decisions would be meaningless,
since on a VLT the outcome of the hand is determined by the central
computer as soon as the hand is initiated. Nevertheless, I wanted to
experience what it was like to play VP on a VLT, so I threw a twenty
into an IGT quarter DB machine, and played (GASP) one coin at a time.

I knew that if I were to be dealt a winning hand, I could discard it,
and I would get, at a minimum, the same type of winning hand on the
draw. But I wanted to experience that for myself, so the first time
I was dealt a pair of jacks, I threw them away. Sure enough, I got
another paying pair on the draw. Shortly thereafter, I was dealt
trips. Ditched 'em, got trips back. Same thing happened when I was
dealt straights, flushes, and full houses. It wasn't a surprise, but
there was something curiously humorous about it.

I had heard about the "match card" feature on VP VLTs, which allows
the machine to pay you what you're supposed to win even if your
discard decision makes it impossible for the machine to give you the
final hand that you were supposed to get. I don't know if anyone has
posted this before, but IGT has come up with an interesting variation
on that feature. A couple of times, I was dealt an open straight
draw, along with a low pair. Being the trained DB player, I kept the
straight draw. Apparently, I was supposed to get trips, but that
wasn't possible holding four cards to a straight. The one card draw
paired me up, and then a magic lamp appeared at the bottom of the
screen, a genie came out, walked across the cards, and changed one of
them to give me my trips. To the uneducated, this looks like a great
thing....sometimes a losing hand is turned into a winner!

A couple of machines to my left, a couple were playing a deuces wild
machine. On every hand, they were discussing what the best play
would be. For a while, I was just laughing to myself, because I knew
it didn't matter. Then, I had the urge to tell them....but I fought
it off. I didn't want to ruin their fun. However, when someone came
by and commented that the 9/7 DB pay table was better than what they
offer at Mohegan Sun or Foxwoods, I had to explain that the pay table
on these machines is absolutely meaningless when it comes to
determining the machine's payback percentage. It took about ten
minutes of explanation, along with discarding five winning hands and
getting the same winners back on the draw, to convince the guy.

I had fully expected that I would not enjoy playing the VLTs, since
my affinity for VP is based upon the mental aspect of the game. I
was right. Playing the VLTs is just putting in money and pushing
buttons. Not mentally stimulating at all. Not fun, except for
listening to neighbors who don't understand how the games work.

On the whole, Mighty M Gaming is an attractive place. It's a non-
smoking facility, very attractive and very clean, with comfortable
seating at the machines. The buffet isn't what Vegas players are
used to. The selections are very limited. I can't figure the logic
behind some of the prices at the food court. Plain bagel, $1. Bagel
with butter, $2. (How much butter do they put on???) Bagel with
cream cheese, $3. It ain't VP heaven. For slot players, though,
it's a nice place.

vpFREE Links: http://members.cox.net/vpfree/Links.htm

Yahoo! Groups Links

wishiwuzinvegas wrote:

> Nevertheless, I wanted to experience what it was like to play VP
> on a VLT ...
>
> ... IGT has come up with an interesting variation on that feature.
> A couple of times, I was dealt an open straight draw, along with a
> low pair. Being the trained DB player, I kept the straight draw.
> Apparently, I was supposed to get trips, but that wasn't possible
> holding four cards to a straight. The one card draw paired me up,
> and then a magic lamp appeared at the bottom of the screen, a
> genie came out, walked across the cards, and changed one of them
> to give me my trips.

That's an absolute hoot! At least, unlike the "Match Card" VLT's,
there's no doubt you're playing a game that's been seriously messed
with :wink:

(I'd overlooked this original post, the subject line not of interest,
until tomflush brought it back to our attention.)

···

------

tomflush wrote:

Thanks for sharing. Your post lays to rest many many previous posts
that say the following:

"Trust any IGT machine 100% no matter where you find it . ' IGT does
not make chips/machines - shipped from Nevada to other states -
that do not pass Nevada laws for true Random generation' "

I've suspected for quite a while that they indeed do!

Well, if the machine is clearly marked as a VLT, then the informed
player knows that they're not dealing with a random machine ... guess
there's some integrity in that.

However, I'm very disappointed to find that IGT has decided to market
VLT's under the IGT nameplate. When IGT announced last year that it
intended to enter the VLT market, I had anticipated that the games
they introduced would be under the Alliance/SDS labels that they had
recently acquired (both existing makers of VLT's, primarily marketed
to Indian casinos).

I never envisioned that they'd taint the IGT name with non-random
(central determinant) equipment, even if clearly marked.

- Harry

You mean you actually believe in "business ethics"?

···

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "Harry Porter" <harry.porter@v...> wrote:

I never envisioned that they'd taint the IGT name with non-random
(central determinant) equipment, even if clearly marked.

nightoftheiguana2000 wrote:

You mean you actually believe in "business ethics"?

Pretty sad, huh? (I swallowed every word of Ollie North's testimony,
too ...)

- H.

Tom,

Until a year or so ago IGT licensed Class II and the type of VLT found in
Washington State and NY to another company so the IGT name did not appear
on the machines. They now ship them under their own name.

Perhaps a revised statement is that any machine manufactured by IGT will
conform to the regulations of the jurisdiction in which it is found. In a
Class II jurisdiction it will fairly run a bingo game, in Washington State
and NY it will fairly play a lottery scratch ticket to determine the
result. In all Class III jurisdictions it will deal fairly as if it were
hand-dealt from a complete deck.

And, for the record, not all VLT's work like those in Washington and NY.
Also, they are not "Class II" machines. Washington and NY are Class III
states. Class I, II and III refer to the types of games permitted in a
casino on an Indian reservation and are based upon any legal wagering
permitted in that state. If a state permits charity events to have games
like blackjack and roulette then it cannot prohibit a tribe from opening a
Class III casino. If it only permits Bingo and the like then it will be
Class II. (Note: Florida tribes are trying to overcome this restriction
and, if they succeed, Federal law is likely to change).

The Federal laws governing Indian casinos have no effect on State laws.
Therefore each state is free to permit other types of wagering by the State
or by commercial interests in that State. In NY and Washington, slot
machines off the reservation are part of the state lottery which is why
they are not "Nevada-style". I understand, but am not sure, that machines
on the reservation in Washington are also part of the lottery system. I do
not know if that is true in NY. Does anyone?

Hope this helps,

Bill

···

At 06:24 AM 05/30/2005, you wrote:

Thanks for sharing. Your post lays to rest many many previous posts that say
the following:

"Trust any IGT machine 100% no matter where you find it . ' IGT does not
make chips/machines - shipped from Nevada to other states - that do not
pass Nevada laws for true Random generation' "

I've suspected for quite a while that they indeed do!
regards...Tom

----- Original Message -----
From: "wishiwuzinvegas" <pelotari1672@yahoo.com>
To: <vpFREE@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Sunday, May 08, 2005 12:10 PM
Subject: [vpFREE] Monticello Experience

> My son and I took a ride up to "Mighty M Gaming" at Monticello
> Raceway last weekend, just to check out the racino there. As some of
> you must already know, they have class II video lottery terminals, in
> video slot and video poker formats.
>
> Now, I'm a traditional video poker buff. (No, that doesn't mean that
> I play VP in the buff!) I enjoy the mental aspect of the game, and
> the fact that what I do has an effect on the outcome of the hand. I
> knew going in that at Monticello, my decisions would be meaningless,
> since on a VLT the outcome of the hand is determined by the central
> computer as soon as the hand is initiated. Nevertheless, I wanted to
> experience what it was like to play VP on a VLT, so I threw a twenty
> into an IGT quarter DB machine, and played (GASP) one coin at a time.
>
> I knew that if I were to be dealt a winning hand, I could discard it,
> and I would get, at a minimum, the same type of winning hand on the
> draw. But I wanted to experience that for myself, so the first time
> I was dealt a pair of jacks, I threw them away. Sure enough, I got
> another paying pair on the draw. Shortly thereafter, I was dealt
> trips. Ditched 'em, got trips back. Same thing happened when I was
> dealt straights, flushes, and full houses. It wasn't a surprise, but
> there was something curiously humorous about it.
>
> I had heard about the "match card" feature on VP VLTs, which allows
> the machine to pay you what you're supposed to win even if your
> discard decision makes it impossible for the machine to give you the
> final hand that you were supposed to get. I don't know if anyone has
> posted this before, but IGT has come up with an interesting variation
> on that feature. A couple of times, I was dealt an open straight
> draw, along with a low pair. Being the trained DB player, I kept the
> straight draw. Apparently, I was supposed to get trips, but that
> wasn't possible holding four cards to a straight. The one card draw
> paired me up, and then a magic lamp appeared at the bottom of the
> screen, a genie came out, walked across the cards, and changed one of
> them to give me my trips. To the uneducated, this looks like a great
> thing....sometimes a losing hand is turned into a winner!
>
> A couple of machines to my left, a couple were playing a deuces wild
> machine. On every hand, they were discussing what the best play
> would be. For a while, I was just laughing to myself, because I knew
> it didn't matter. Then, I had the urge to tell them....but I fought
> it off. I didn't want to ruin their fun. However, when someone came
> by and commented that the 9/7 DB pay table was better than what they
> offer at Mohegan Sun or Foxwoods, I had to explain that the pay table
> on these machines is absolutely meaningless when it comes to
> determining the machine's payback percentage. It took about ten
> minutes of explanation, along with discarding five winning hands and
> getting the same winners back on the draw, to convince the guy.
>
> I had fully expected that I would not enjoy playing the VLTs, since
> my affinity for VP is based upon the mental aspect of the game. I
> was right. Playing the VLTs is just putting in money and pushing
> buttons. Not mentally stimulating at all. Not fun, except for
> listening to neighbors who don't understand how the games work.
>
> On the whole, Mighty M Gaming is an attractive place. It's a non-
> smoking facility, very attractive and very clean, with comfortable
> seating at the machines. The buffet isn't what Vegas players are
> used to. The selections are very limited. I can't figure the logic
> behind some of the prices at the food court. Plain bagel, $1. Bagel
> with butter, $2. (How much butter do they put on???) Bagel with
> cream cheese, $3. It ain't VP heaven. For slot players, though,
> it's a nice place.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> vpFREE Links: http://members.cox.net/vpfree/Links.htm
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>

vpFREE Links: http://members.cox.net/vpfree/Links.htm

Yahoo! Groups Links

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]