vpFREE2 Forums

Michigan man charged with evading taxes on casino winnings

#1

Exactly! If he was trying to "hide" 3 million in W2Gs
how much MORE did he really win??? AND, he must
not have had to losses or be able to verify the losses to
off-set it. I'm sure readers here have approached this
same threshold but have losses to off-set. This guy
didn't??? And 3 million is a pretty tidy sum. . . .

Jean H--
You have brains in your head. You have feet in your shoes.
You can steer yourself any direction you choose.
You're on your own. And you know what you know.
And YOU are the one who'll decide where to go.... Dr. Seuss

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----- Original Message ----
From: King Fish <vpkingfish@gmail.com>
To: vpFREE@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Sunday, May 27, 2007 2:40:57 PM
Subject: Re: [vpFREE] Michigan man charged with evading taxes on casino winnings

On 5/27/07, K/J Haka <kjhaka@yahoo.com> wrote:

WOW! 3 million in winnings? In one year??? Does
anyone know HOW this man won so much?

I suspect it was $3 milllion in W-2Gs, not his net.

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#2

I suspect he had lots of losses. I'd venture a guess that he may not
have been gambling with his own money, or at least not "legal" money.

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--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, K/J Haka <kjhaka@...> wrote:

Exactly! If he was trying to "hide" 3 million in W2Gs
how much MORE did he really win??? AND, he must
not have had to losses or be able to verify the losses to
off-set it. I'm sure readers here have approached this
same threshold but have losses to off-set. This guy
didn't??? And 3 million is a pretty tidy sum. . . .

Jean H--

#3

Exactly! If he was trying to "hide" 3 million in W2Gs
how much MORE did he really win??? AND, he must
not have had to losses or be able to verify the losses to
off-set it. I'm sure readers here have approached this
same threshold but have losses to off-set. This guy
didn't??? And 3 million is a pretty tidy sum. . . .

No, he probably had many losses; I doubt he kept records though. The 3
million is his gross win, that is his wins that were documented with w-
2g's. Anyone playing high end VP especially, multi-line VP would show
a very big w-2g win at the end of the year, but could still be a net
loser for the year.

For example, a dealt full-house on a $10, 3-line, 9/6 game would win
$1350 and generate a w-2g. But that player may still have lost money
on that session. A $5 or $10 bonus poker game would generate even more
w-2g's.

Showing a large w-2g win is not uncommon.

#4

In Michigan, I believe you can't deduct any losses...so...

K/J Haka <kjhaka@yahoo.com> wrote: Exactly! If he was trying to "hide" 3 million in W2Gs
how much MORE did he really win??? AND, he must
not have had to losses or be able to verify the losses to
off-set it. I'm sure readers here have approached this
same threshold but have losses to off-set. This guy
didn't??? And 3 million is a pretty tidy sum. . . .

Jean H--
You have brains in your head. You have feet in your shoes.
You can steer yourself any direction you choose.
You're on your own. And you know what you know.
And YOU are the one who'll decide where to go.... Dr. Seuss

···

----- Original Message ----
From: King Fish <vpkingfish@gmail.com>
To: vpFREE@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Sunday, May 27, 2007 2:40:57 PM
Subject: Re: [vpFREE] Michigan man charged with evading taxes on casino winnings

On 5/27/07, K/J Haka <kjhaka@yahoo.com> wrote:
> WOW! 3 million in winnings? In one year??? Does
> anyone know HOW this man won so much?

I suspect it was $3 milllion in W-2Gs, not his net.

__________________________________________________________Yahoo! oneSearch: Finally, mobile search
that gives answers, not web links.
http://mobile.yahoo.com/mobileweb/onesearch?refer=1ONXIC

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

---------------------------------
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Go to the Yahoo! Mail Q&A for great tips from Yahoo! Answers users.

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#5

I assume you mean state taxes. That would present huge problems to
someone who gambles high denoms without a reasonable banroll. It also
seems like this tax could be challenged in court, has anyone tried this?

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--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, Money Works <worksforthemoney@...> wrote:

In Michigan, I believe you can't deduct any losses...so...

#6

I am in Wisconsin and we are like Michigan..no deductions but taxed on all wins down to the last penny. It doesn't matter if you came out with huge losses and it looks like you won 3 million. You are taxed on 3 million. The Midwest is tax hungry for sure. It will be interesting to see what happens here if he does have a loss..maybe the tax laws will be looked at but don't count on any changes. It is crazy to gamble like this man did and live where he does. Maybe he didn't understand the laws here.

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mroejacks <rgmustain@aol.com> wrote: --- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, Money Works <worksforthemoney@...> wrote:
>
> In Michigan, I believe you can't deduct any losses...so...
>

I assume you mean state taxes. That would present huge problems to
someone who gambles high denoms without a reasonable banroll. It also
seems like this tax could be challenged in court, has anyone tried this?

---------------------------------
Pinpoint customers who are looking for what you sell.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

#7

I remember Harry Porter giving a Michigan high roller some sage advice
right in this very forum. For all I know it was the same guy. Harry
said something to the effect "if you are going to be generating large
amounts of W-2G's you will definately need to change your State of
residence". The way Michigan does it is so patently unreasonable.
Technically a granny who's playing the penny slots for a few hours and
lost $120 has generated thousand of dollars in income according to the
State of Michigan. Luckily for her she won't have any W-2G's so she
will probably be fine. But if you can't deduct the losses that means
100% of the C.I is adding to your A.G.I., it's just absolutely
ridiculous.

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--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, Money Works <worksforthemoney@...> wrote:

In Michigan, I believe you can't deduct any losses...so...

On 5/27/07, K/J Haka <kjhaka@...> wrote:
> WOW! 3 million in winnings? In one year??? Does
> anyone know HOW this man won so much?

I suspect it was $3 milllion in W-2Gs, not his net.

__________________________________________________________Yahoo!

#8

Technically a granny who's playing the penny slots for a few hours

and

lost $120 has generated thousand of dollars in income according to

the

State of Michigan. Luckily for her she won't have any W-2G's so she
will probably be fine. But if you can't deduct the losses that means
100% of the C.I is adding to your A.G.I., it's just absolutely
ridiculous.

This is why I wondered if anyone had challenged the state legally. It
appears they are enforcing the law inconsistently (which is often a no-
no). There's no reason to treat W2G wins any different than two pair
unless it's spelled out specifically in the law. Although it won't help
this dude with the tax evasion charges it could help him with back
taxes and penalties.

Based on the cigarette tax enforcement why couldn't they get gambling
records from all the casinos and send tax statements to everyone based
on their coin-out? They won't since that would generate a huge uproar,
however they really are being inconsistent.

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--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "markhaslem" <markhaslem@...> wrote:

#9

In Michigan, I believe you can't deduct any losses...so...

................................................
K/J Haka <kjhaka@...> wrote: Exactly!
If he was trying to "hide" 3 million in W2Gs how much MORE did he
really win???

REPLY: He probably LOST money overall. But "Money Works" has
identified the problem. In Michigan (where you may not offset losses
against W-2G's), if you have $3 million in W-2G's but lost $1 million
overall, you still owe the State of Michigan 3.9% x $3 million =
$117,000 in personal "income" tax. Coming up with $117,000 might be
tough if you've lost a million.

No one said that life is fair -- or that tax laws must be rational. As
someone has observed (I paraphrase here), "There is no powerful lobby
for 12-year-olds who invest their cocaine-selling profits into their
prostitution business. Personally, I resent that analogy, but "tell
that to your average Michigan legislator."

The GMan (a Michigan resident)

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--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, Money Works <worksforthemoney@...> wrote:

#10

From: "mroejacks" wrote
Subject: [vpFREE] Re: Michigan man charged with evading taxes on casino winnings

"This is why I wondered if anyone had challenged the state legally. It

appears they are enforcing the law inconsistently (which is often a no-
no). There's no reason to treat W2G wins any different than two pair
unless it's spelled out specifically in the law. Although it won't help
this dude with the tax evasion charges it could help him with back
taxes and penalties."

The reason that the W-2g's are picked up in Michigan income is that most people report W-2g amounts as income on their federal tax returns. Michigan uses federal adjusted gross income as a starting point for Michigan taxable income, however there is no provision for deducting itemized deductions which is where the losses are shown for federal purposes. Why would Michigan ever change this it has been a lucative source of revenue for the state. As a State of Michigan employee I like to see the revenue, as a regular VP player I hate this treatment and lastly as a tax preparer I feel bad for my clients that get the whammy! This situation can usually be avoided by playing at the $.25 level, however I have gotten burned a few times after hitting aces on the $ 1 DDB machines.

Oh well whoever said that life was fair!

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