Mea Culpa (AA in KC)

[Carlos_Lebron]

My sincere apologies to those folks recently disappointed to find
Harrah's KC has removed all the AA from their inventory. The
consensus seems to be that my posting a week or so ago is what
brought some 'pros' into the area, who proceeded to kill the play.
Harrah's reacted--as casinos often do, I guess--by overreacting. It
doesn't matter that they had two dozen quarter & dollar AA machines
on the floor for many years without a problem. They've removed ALL
denominations of it anyway.

All I can say is a) I've never actually seen a play 'killed by pros'
before, and b) I've posted VPFree database update comments many times
without a problem. When I saw the $5 machine, my reaction was one of
amusement more than anything else. There are only four casinos in
the KC area. We've long been known unofficially as the 'Home of All
American' (it's even mentioned in some VP books). To me, Harrah's KC
putting in a $5 AA machine is roughly the same as El Cortez in LV
putting in a large bank of $5 FPDW machines. OF COURSE word is going
to get around about it. But that doesn't mean I have to help, and
again I apologize.

In the future, I will limit my postings to $1 or less games. I hope
the managerment at Harrah's KC will reconsider their decision and put
AA back in, at least in quarters.

carlos

PS Just for the record, I didn't play any High Limit AA myself. I'm
lucky to have bankroll to play quarters and I'm not interested in
skirting Missouri's $500 Loss Limit Rule.

[kcace1024]

Carlos,

No apology is necessary. Your posting may have had nothing to do
with the AA removal. I do not believe there are pros in KC. I do
not see a pro leaving LV to play $5 AA in KC. There are some
serious obstacles to making this play work. I just found out that
Missouri has started withholding tax on W2 jackpots. Between the
taxes, the $500 loss limit, and the difficulty of playing AA
accurately I am sure the pros can find better plays in LV.

Chris

My sincere apologies to those folks recently disappointed to find
Harrah's KC has removed all the AA from their inventory. The
consensus seems to be that my posting a week or so ago is what
brought some 'pros' into the area, who proceeded to kill the

play.

Harrah's reacted--as casinos often do, I guess--by overreacting.

It

doesn't matter that they had two dozen quarter & dollar AA

machines

on the floor for many years without a problem. They've removed

ALL

denominations of it anyway.

All I can say is a) I've never actually seen a play 'killed by

pros'

before, and b) I've posted VPFree database update comments many

times

without a problem. When I saw the $5 machine, my reaction was one

of

amusement more than anything else. There are only four casinos in
the KC area. We've long been known unofficially as the 'Home of

All

American' (it's even mentioned in some VP books). To me, Harrah's

KC

putting in a $5 AA machine is roughly the same as El Cortez in LV
putting in a large bank of $5 FPDW machines. OF COURSE word is

going

to get around about it. But that doesn't mean I have to help, and
again I apologize.

In the future, I will limit my postings to $1 or less games. I

hope

the managerment at Harrah's KC will reconsider their decision and

put

AA back in, at least in quarters.

carlos

PS Just for the record, I didn't play any High Limit AA myself.

I'm

···

-- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "calebr0n" <calebr0n@y...> wrote:

lucky to have bankroll to play quarters and I'm not interested in
skirting Missouri's $500 Loss Limit Rule.

[Jon_Callahan]

Harrah's has had these machines for years and obviously made good money on
them over that time or they would have been pulled long ago. Many people
played Pick Em and some of the other games offered on the Gamemaker
platform. Not too many people that I noted were knowledgable players on AA
although there certainly were some. For them to put in $2 and $5 AA and
then pull them all at once including dollar and quarters seems a little
extreme. However, this seems to be a nationwide trend in pulling good games
that give a player like myself the chance to play longer. My response has
been to play a lot less than in years past. Casinos are a lot like banks;
they only want a sure thing.
Incidently, on the occasional trips I have made to KC over the years I have
run across what I would consider to be local pros playing high progressives
mostly for dollars. These were for the most part knowledgable players.

···

-----Original Message-----
From: vpFREE@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vpF…@…com]On Behalf Of
kcace1024
Sent: Sunday, May 15, 2005 1:49 AM
To: vpFREE@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [vpFREE] Re: Mea Culpa (AA in KC)

Carlos,

No apology is necessary. Your posting may have had nothing to do
with the AA removal. I do not believe there are pros in KC. I do
not see a pro leaving LV to play $5 AA in KC. There are some
serious obstacles to making this play work. I just found out that
Missouri has started withholding tax on W2 jackpots. Between the
taxes, the $500 loss limit, and the difficulty of playing AA
accurately I am sure the pros can find better plays in LV.

Chris

[hockeystl]

I do not believe there are pros in KC. I do
not see a pro leaving LV to play $5 AA in KC. There are some
serious obstacles to making this play work. I just found out that
Missouri has started withholding tax on W2 jackpots. Between the
taxes, the $500 loss limit, and the difficulty of playing AA
accurately I am sure the pros can find better plays in LV.

What makes you think they traveled from LV? I know for a fact that
there are pros based in STL, and these pros had a direct hand in
burning this play out at Harrahs KC.

Missouri loss limit? Merely an annoyance for a pro. Very easily
circumvented by a) hoarding chips and/or b) hoarding abandoned slot
cards.

Difficulty of playing AA is also not a factor. 10 hours of practice
on WinPoker and a strategy card and he/she is in business. When the
base EV is 100.7%, giving a couple tenths up of EV in strategy errors
isn't much of a factor versus more hands per hour.

These same pros found out about the $1/$2/$5 KBJW that Ameristar STC
had for several months before they descended on it and each played 2
machines nonstop until Ameristar pulled the plug.

This clan also pounded the President's $5 JB (again, each playing 2
machines) when they had 1.2% CB every Monday until they reacted by
eliminating 6x points (after several YEARS of having this
promotion).

This same group camped out (literally...they had all necessary
survival supplies in their machine hoppers) on Harrahs STL $1 AA a
couple years ago when they were running a juicy CB promo. They were
pulled a couple months later after being in place for several years.

I could list other plays this small group of pros is responsible for
burning out with their piggish behavior and complete lack of cover,
but I think the point has been made....

They're on this list, no doubt about it.....

[Carlos_Lebron]

hocky -

Any idea why the casinos can't simply tell these people to get lost? I
know Harrah's floor staff were hanging around the High Limit AA
machines a week after they were put in and besides seeing the same few
faces on the machines 24/7, there is NO WAY they could fail to notice
the $500LL rule was being violated.

I always thought MO casinos were the same as LV in that the casino can
walk up to a player and say, "You're too good for us and you're
leaving. Now." They sure as heck do it with suspected card counters
(it makes the local papers) so why not VP'ers??

carlos

···

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "hockeystl" <vegasstl@c...> wrote:

What makes you think they traveled from LV? I know for a fact that
there are pros based in STL, and these pros had a direct hand in
burning this play out at Harrahs KC.

Missouri loss limit? Merely an annoyance for a pro. Very easily
circumvented by a) hoarding chips and/or b) hoarding abandoned slot
cards....[etc]...

This same group camped out (literally...they had all necessary
survival supplies in their machine hoppers) on Harrahs STL $1 AA a
couple years ago when they were running a juicy CB promo. They were
pulled a couple months later after being in place for several years.

[Lucky_Lucy]

You are absolutely correct. We observed the couple from St Louis
(later identified by a different couple from St Louis we spoke to who
were spending the weekend at Harrah's) banging the hell out of the $5
AA. He had just hit a straight flush and was taking his $5,000 hand
pay in casino chips instead of $$$$. He could then trade in his
chips for $5 tokens and get around the $500 limit.

Makes you wonder if we should ever post good deals on the group.

Rick

···

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "hockeystl" <vegasstl@c...> wrote:

> I do not believe there are pros in KC. I do
> not see a pro leaving LV to play $5 AA in KC. There are some
> serious obstacles to making this play work. I just found out that
> Missouri has started withholding tax on W2 jackpots. Between the
> taxes, the $500 loss limit, and the difficulty of playing AA
> accurately I am sure the pros can find better plays in LV.

What makes you think they traveled from LV? I know for a fact that
there are pros based in STL, and these pros had a direct hand in
burning this play out at Harrahs KC.

Missouri loss limit? Merely an annoyance for a pro. Very easily
circumvented by a) hoarding chips and/or b) hoarding abandoned slot
cards.

Difficulty of playing AA is also not a factor. 10 hours of practice
on WinPoker and a strategy card and he/she is in business. When the
base EV is 100.7%, giving a couple tenths up of EV in strategy errors
isn't much of a factor versus more hands per hour.

These same pros found out about the $1/$2/$5 KBJW that Ameristar STC
had for several months before they descended on it and each played 2
machines nonstop until Ameristar pulled the plug.

This clan also pounded the President's $5 JB (again, each playing 2
machines) when they had 1.2% CB every Monday until they reacted by
eliminating 6x points (after several YEARS of having this
promotion).

This same group camped out (literally...they had all necessary
survival supplies in their machine hoppers) on Harrahs STL $1 AA a
couple years ago when they were running a juicy CB promo. They were
pulled a couple months later after being in place for several years.

I could list other plays this small group of pros is responsible for
burning out with their piggish behavior and complete lack of cover,
but I think the point has been made....

They're on this list, no doubt about it.....

[hockeystl]

Any idea why the casinos can't simply tell these people to get

lost? I

know Harrah's floor staff were hanging around the High Limit AA
machines a week after they were put in and besides seeing the same

few

faces on the machines 24/7, there is NO WAY they could fail to

notice

the $500LL rule was being violated.

I always thought MO casinos were the same as LV in that the casino

can

walk up to a player and say, "You're too good for us and you're
leaving. Now." They sure as heck do it with suspected card

counters

(it makes the local papers) so why not VP'ers??

carlos

MO casinos are considered public facilities. Players cannot be kept
from entering or ban them simply for being skilled players. MO
casinos cannot ban card counters. What they've done with cc'rs is to
reduce penetration and/or cut table limits, which renders the game
unplayable.

If Harrahs/Missouri Gaming was made aware that the players were
intentionally circumventing the loss limit, they could've told the
players to leave...and possibly banned them (I'm not sure of the laws
regarding this).