vpFREE2 Forums

Matchplay value

#1

Blackjack $5 Matchplays, a hypothetical situation:

I start with $50. I play 10 hands, using $5 of my own money and a $5 match play.
I win 5 hands and lose 5 hands.

On the 5 hands I win, I retain my original $5 bet, the casino pays me $5 and the casino gives me another $5 for the match play and takes away the match play coupon. On the 5 hands I lose, I lose my $5 bet and the casino takes away the match play coupon.

The cash wager portion win $25, lose $25 and break even for the 10 hands, so I retain my original $50. The match play portion on the 5 wins, I win $25, on the 5 losses I lose 0 so I have $25 from match plays. The match play bets have a face value of $50. I win $25 so I would put their worth at 50% of what is printed on the match play. For the cash portion, I started with $50, I ended up with $50 so my return for this example is 1.00 return and on the match plays, it is .50 return.

The actual return for match plays is blackjack is even less than half of what is printed since the match play can't be doubled and doesn't receive 3:2 ( or 6:5) on a blackjack. Also, if you split, the places I have played will only let you split the original wager and not the match play.

The entire difference in the discussion is that on a win with cash, I retain the original wager. On a matchplay, when I win, the casino keeps the original wager , i.e the match play coupon.

If I start with $50 cash and make ten, even money bets, the most I end up with is $100. If I start with $50 in match plays, the most I end up with is $50. Think of the match play as the person next to you giving you $5 to bet with and you keep the profits. If you win, he takes back the original bet.

···

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Note: The information contained in this message may be privileged and confidential and thus protected from disclosure. If the reader of this message is not the intended recipient, or an employee or agent responsible for delivering this message to the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution or copying of this communication is strictly prohibited. If you have received this communication in error, please notify us immediately by replying to the message and deleting it from your computer. Thank you.

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#2

Thanks for the replys, I now see the error in my understanding of how
matchplay works.

I was thinking along the following lines:

walk into two casinos with $5 in your wallet casino A gives you $5 to
play an even money game 1/2 win $10 1/2 0 +$5 walet walk out $10

Caino B match play pull $5 out of wallet 1/2 win $20 + 1/2 0 +o
wallet =$10 I now realize this is wrong you don't get $20 but only
$15 on the win. I thought maybe you get get around this with enough
matchplay but alast you can't

I really appreciate the thoughtful responses Dan, Chris, John, Harry
the ones quoting a text or the brain Anthony Curtis" really don't
help in the analysis or uncovering the mistake...more thoughtful
posts and fewer smart-ass posts would improve the forum. A simple
counter example is always aprreciated.

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "John.G.Zaroff" <John.G.Zaroff@d...>
wrote:

Blackjack $5 Matchplays, a hypothetical situation:

I start with $50. I play 10 hands, using $5 of my own money and a

$5 match play.

I win 5 hands and lose 5 hands.

On the 5 hands I win, I retain my original $5 bet, the casino pays

me $5 and the casino gives me another $5 for the match play and takes
away the match play coupon. On the 5 hands I lose, I lose my $5 bet
and the casino takes away the match play coupon.

The cash wager portion win $25, lose $25 and break even for the 10

hands, so I retain my original $50. The match play portion on the 5
wins, I win $25, on the 5 losses I lose 0 so I have $25 from match
plays. The match play bets have a face value of $50. I win $25 so I
would put their worth at 50% of what is printed on the match play.
For the cash portion, I started with $50, I ended up with $50 so my
return for this example is 1.00 return and on the match plays, it
is .50 return.

The actual return for match plays is blackjack is even less than

half of what is printed since the match play can't be doubled and
doesn't receive 3:2 ( or 6:5) on a blackjack. Also, if you split,
the places I have played will only let you split the original wager
and not the match play.

The entire difference in the discussion is that on a win with cash,

I retain the original wager. On a matchplay, when I win, the casino
keeps the original wager , i.e the match play coupon.

If I start with $50 cash and make ten, even money bets, the most I

end up with is $100. If I start with $50 in match plays, the most I
end up with is $50. Think of the match play as the person next to you
giving you $5 to bet with and you keep the profits. If you win, he
takes back the original bet.

···

**********************************************************************
******************

Note: The information contained in this message may be privileged

and confidential and thus protected from disclosure. If the reader of
this message is not the intended recipient, or an employee or agent
responsible for delivering this message to the intended recipient,
you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution or
copying of this communication is strictly prohibited. If you have
received this communication in error, please notify us immediately by
replying to the message and deleting it from your computer. Thank
you.

**********************************************************************
******************

#3

If you want less smart ass posts in the future don't stand up on your math
degrees and "the earth is not flat" lines to try to prove how smart you are
and that you must be correct because of them. I suggest that if you had
treated us with a little bit of respect you would have looked a little more
closely at what we were saying before sending a dozen posts telling us all
how wrong we were.

···

-----Original Message-----
From: jaydavidson118 [mailto:jaydavidson…@…com]
Sent: Tuesday, November 23, 2004 7:23 PM
To: vpFREE@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [vpFREE] Re: Matchplay value (Dan, John, Harry, Chris et al)

Thanks for the replys, I now see the error in my understanding of how
matchplay works.

I was thinking along the following lines:

walk into two casinos with $5 in your wallet casino A gives you $5 to
play an even money game 1/2 win $10 1/2 0 +$5 walet walk out $10

Caino B match play pull $5 out of wallet 1/2 win $20 + 1/2 0 +o
wallet =$10 I now realize this is wrong you don't get $20 but only
$15 on the win. I thought maybe you get get around this with enough
matchplay but alast you can't

I really appreciate the thoughtful responses Dan, Chris, John, Harry
the ones quoting a text or the brain Anthony Curtis" really don't
help in the analysis or uncovering the mistake...more thoughtful
posts and fewer smart-ass posts would improve the forum. A simple
counter example is always aprreciated.

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "John.G.Zaroff" <John.G.Zaroff@d...>
wrote:

Blackjack $5 Matchplays, a hypothetical situation:

I start with $50. I play 10 hands, using $5 of my own money and a

$5 match play.

I win 5 hands and lose 5 hands.

On the 5 hands I win, I retain my original $5 bet, the casino pays

me $5 and the casino gives me another $5 for the match play and takes
away the match play coupon. On the 5 hands I lose, I lose my $5 bet
and the casino takes away the match play coupon.

The cash wager portion win $25, lose $25 and break even for the 10

hands, so I retain my original $50. The match play portion on the 5
wins, I win $25, on the 5 losses I lose 0 so I have $25 from match
plays. The match play bets have a face value of $50. I win $25 so I
would put their worth at 50% of what is printed on the match play.
For the cash portion, I started with $50, I ended up with $50 so my
return for this example is 1.00 return and on the match plays, it
is .50 return.

The actual return for match plays is blackjack is even less than

half of what is printed since the match play can't be doubled and
doesn't receive 3:2 ( or 6:5) on a blackjack. Also, if you split,
the places I have played will only let you split the original wager
and not the match play.

The entire difference in the discussion is that on a win with cash,

I retain the original wager. On a matchplay, when I win, the casino
keeps the original wager , i.e the match play coupon.

If I start with $50 cash and make ten, even money bets, the most I

end up with is $100. If I start with $50 in match plays, the most I
end up with is $50. Think of the match play as the person next to you
giving you $5 to bet with and you keep the profits. If you win, he
takes back the original bet.

**********************************************************************
******************

Note: The information contained in this message may be privileged

and confidential and thus protected from disclosure. If the reader of
this message is not the intended recipient, or an employee or agent
responsible for delivering this message to the intended recipient,
you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution or
copying of this communication is strictly prohibited. If you have
received this communication in error, please notify us immediately by
replying to the message and deleting it from your computer. Thank
you.

**********************************************************************
******************

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#4

If you want less smart ass posts in the future don't stand up on

your math

degrees and "the earth is not flat" lines to try to prove how

smart you are

and that you must be correct because of them. I suggest that if

you had

treated us with a little bit of respect you would have looked a

little more

closely at what we were saying before sending a dozen posts

telling us all

how wrong we were.

From: jaydavidson118 [mailto:jaydavidson118@y…]
Sent: Tuesday, November 23, 2004 7:23 PM
To: vpFREE@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [vpFREE] Re: Matchplay value (Dan, John, Harry, Chris et

Thought I would add my two cents worth to this overplayed thread.

For the recreational gambler like myself who is not college breed,
I feel Jean's explaination was right on time. After reading all the
varying opinions on what a matchplay is really worth I'm afraid to
use one.

As far as the "less smart ass post" goes, this thread was overplayed
by everyone involved, me included by posting this one. It seemed to
me that everyone was trying to prove the other wrong by using their
college degrees. A lot of lifes lessons and knowledge are not always
found in text books, but in life itself.

Look at it this way a matchplay is a coupon or could be a mailed
comp. Who better to believe than the "Queen of Comps".

···

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "Randy C" <randyc@U...> wrote:

-----Original Message-----

#5

<<Look at it this way a matchplay is a coupon or could be a mailed
comp. Who better to believe than the "Queen of Comps".>>

Thanx very much - but I could name hundreds - thousands? - you could trust on math answers with more confidence. You don't think I put out any major gambling piece without an edit by some math-head friends??? Frugal 2 in rough draft was looked over by so many people (many on the 2 VP lists)I wondered if there would be anyone left to buy it!!!

···

________________________________________
Jean $¢ott - Go to http://www.FrugalGambler.biz
  for VP software and strategy cards and for the
  Frugal series of books.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

#6

jaydavidson118 wrote:

Thanks for the replys, I now see the error in my understanding of
how matchplay works ...

I really appreciate the thoughtful responses Dan, Chris, John, Harry
the ones quoting a text or the brain Anthony Curtis" really don't
help in the analysis or uncovering the mistake...more thoughtful
posts and fewer smart-ass posts would improve the forum. A simple
counter example is always aprreciated.

Jay,

I'm sure, bottom line, that all those who responded are pleased that
the thread served to enlighten.

As far as the tone of some posts, I'll note that under similar general
circumstances on some internet newsgroups this discussion might have
elicited far more caustic feedback. This group is amazingly reasoned,
constructive and tolerant and by and large recognizes that we all have
our "blind spots" from time to time.

I hope, in hindsight, you'll recognize that you posed an exceptionally
strong challenge to Jean and others here in your statements. In
principal, there's nothing wrong with that. However, when confronted
with a near unison counter voice (I think I was the only brief
exception ;), both you and the group will be best served if you take
greater time to reflect upon your assertion and more strongly weigh
the statements of others.

This is particularly true when among those voices are some who possess
VERY strong experience in the field. I'll acknowledge that there are
occasions on which some can be so determined to hold onto a conviction
that they'll be blinded to any physical experience to the contrary.
But souls such as Jean are loathe to make pat statements until they've
been fully vetted by both experience and confirmation of others (think
of it as "peer review").

Bottom line, you're most welcome as a new contributor and we'll look
forward to a fresh voice. I, myself, question the statements by the
most seasoned players here when the comments fly in the face of my
sense on a topic (and have much appreciated the patience of Jean and
others in engaging me in such discussions). But until I've had the
opportunity to fully consider the rationale for their position I
strive to to accept and acknowledge that odds are I'm the one dealing
from a short deck :wink:

- Harry

#7

If you want less smart ass posts in the future don't stand up on

your math

degrees and "the earth is not flat" lines to try to prove how

smart you are

and that you must be correct because of them. I suggest that if

you had

treated us with a little bit of respect you would have looked a

little more

closely at what we were saying before sending a dozen posts

telling us all

···

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "Randy C" <randyc@U...> wrote:

how wrong we were.

===================================

Hi Randy,

I agree with you completely. This is the 2nd time that Jay has been
gratuitously condescending to members of this board, and this time,
at least, he was 100% wrong.

A few weeks ago he was, IMO, quite impolite to Iggy, and very
disparaging of his math skills and calculations. Personally, I feel
that Iggy is most gracious in sharing his considerable expertise
when responding to other poster's queries. I'm sure that he expends
considerable time and trouble in doing the pertinent calculations,
without, I might add, any remuneration anyone on from this board.

FWIW, though MY math skills are mediocre, at best, I have a son who
is an Actuary. He has achieved the highest level in Actuarial
Science, and has the designation "FSA" (Fellow of the Society of
Actuaries). He is also a Life Master in Duplicate Bridge, and an
accomplished BJ player. Once in awhile, because he understands the
Math/Stats of vp, he will pay FPDW with me. He NEVER gambles! He
only plays games in which he has the statistical advantage. That is
not to say that he always wins of course, but he does play only
under those favorable circumstances. In business he has had enormous
personal success, and is the CEO of a large company. I mention this
only because, not once, at any personal or business gathering (where
we were privileged to hear him address hundreds of his peers) have I
ever heard him refer to his education, degrees or mathematic
prowess, in order to make a point. He makes it a point not to talk
down to people with much less math acumen, than he possesses.
Despite this, he is most persuasive while endeavoring to impart his
theories, and has the respect of his peers. Because of this, I know
it is possible to gently and politely correct someone with whom you
have a difference of opinion, on a technical matter.

I have followed this thread with considerable interest, not because
I am a BJ player of any consequence, but because, I never miss a
chance to play BJ if I have a coupon. Frankly, I never gave a
thought to how valuable the coupon was, knowing instinctively, that
BJ was a much better play with a coupon, than w/o a coupon. I
usually only play one hand, win or lose, and I'm not particular
about whether the coupon denom. is $5,$10 or $25. My husband, who
plays BJ expertly, thinks that playing only one hand (particularly
if I win) is a little weird. I've tried to explain that BJ is not
my game, and that, unlike vp, I RESENT losing money while playing
BJ. I keep thinking about how much more enjoyment I would derive by
using that bankroll for vp!

In any event, a Happy, PEACEFUL and Yummy Thanksgiving to all. If
you are going to the casino on Thanksgiving Day, may all your
coupons be winners and may all your flushes be Royal!

                        Babe

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "John.G.Zaroff"

<John.G.Zaroff@d...>

wrote:
>
> Blackjack $5 Matchplays, a hypothetical situation:
>

                 <snip>

If I start with $50 in match plays, the most I
end up with is $50. Think of the match play as the person next to

you

giving you $5 to bet with and you keep the profits. If you win,

he

takes back the original bet.

================================================

John, IMO, a simple and correct and perfectly

understandable explanation. Thanks !

                      Babe

>

#8

Not trying to be disrespectful here, but your first three paragraphs
are completely unnecessary and more likely to rankle than soothe.

Hopefully all will focus on your last paragraph <g>

2-W

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "jackessiebabe" <jackessiebabe@y...>

···

I have followed this thread with considerable interest, not because
I am a BJ player of any consequence, but because, I never miss a
chance to play BJ if I have a coupon. Frankly, I never gave a
thought to how valuable the coupon was, knowing instinctively, that
BJ was a much better play with a coupon, than w/o a coupon. I
usually only play one hand, win or lose, and I'm not particular
about whether the coupon denom. is $5,$10 or $25. My husband, who
plays BJ expertly, thinks that playing only one hand (particularly
if I win) is a little weird. I've tried to explain that BJ is not
my game, and that, unlike vp, I RESENT losing money while playing
BJ. I keep thinking about how much more enjoyment I would derive by
using that bankroll for vp!

In any event, a Happy, PEACEFUL and Yummy Thanksgiving to all. If
you are going to the casino on Thanksgiving Day, may all your
coupons be winners and may all your flushes be Royal!

                        Babe
>
> --- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "John.G.Zaroff"
<John.G.Zaroff@d...>
> wrote:
> >
> > Blackjack $5 Matchplays, a hypothetical situation:
> >
                 <snip>

> If I start with $50 in match plays, the most I
> end up with is $50. Think of the match play as the person next to
you
> giving you $5 to bet with and you keep the profits. If you win,
he
> takes back the original bet.

================================================

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> John, IMO, a simple and correct and perfectly
understandable explanation. Thanks !

                      Babe
> >

#9

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "Harry Porter" <harry.porter@v...>
wrote:

jaydavidson118 wrote:
>
> Thanks for the replys, I now see the error in my understanding

of

> how matchplay works ...
>
> I really appreciate the thoughtful responses Dan, Chris, John,

Harry

> the ones quoting a text or the brain Anthony Curtis" really

don't

> help in the analysis or uncovering the mistake...more thoughtful
> posts and fewer smart-ass posts would improve the forum. A

simple

> counter example is always aprreciated.

Jay,

I'm sure, bottom line, that all those who responded are pleased

that

the thread served to enlighten.

As far as the tone of some posts, I'll note that under similar

general

circumstances on some internet newsgroups this discussion might

have

elicited far more caustic feedback. This group is amazingly

reasoned,

constructive and tolerant and by and large recognizes that we all

have

···

our "blind spots" from time to time.

================================

As usual, Harry, I agree with your accurate and

well thought out response.

I meant to mention, in my own prior email, that I thought the forum
was extremely patient with and tolerant of Jay, while attempting to
explain to him why his theory was incorrect.

======================================================

I hope, in hindsight, you'll recognize that you posed an

exceptionally

strong challenge to Jean and others here in your statements. In
principal, there's nothing wrong with that. However, when

confronted

with a near unison counter voice (I think I was the only brief
exception ;), both you and the group will be best served if you

take

greater time to reflect upon your assertion and more strongly weigh
the statements of others.

This is particularly true when among those voices are some who

possess

VERY strong experience in the field.

                      <snip>

Amen again, Harry. As always, you are one of the

foremost proponents of reason and good manners, on the board.

                  Babe

#10

Not trying to be disrespectful here, but your first three

paragraphs

are completely unnecessary and more likely to rankle than soothe.

Hopefully all will focus on your last paragraph <g>

2-W

===============================

Hi 2-Wild

I respect your opinion. I guess I do tend to ramble on too much
when discussing topics that I feel strongly about.

Also, mine might be a minority opinion, but I enjoy reading about
other posters trips, anecdotes, personal experiences and thoughts,
so I tend to share my own as well.

In any event, I will take heed of your counsel.

                  Babe

···

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "2-WILD" <lucky4K@C...> wrote:

#11

Whoa. I read every post in this thread...and NOBODY responded to you
in a smart-assed manner. Several people were explaining to you --
very clearly -- where your mistake was. You were very reluctant to
admit you might be wrong...instead you tried to convince people you
must be right because of the awards you have received.

One thing I can promise you -- when it comes to mathematics, no
matter how good you are, there are always people better than you!
And many of those people read this board...

When it comes to math genius, I always think of a scene in Good Will
Hunting where the professor is talking to Matt Damon...the professor
is among the brightest math minds in the world. Matt Damon is a new
mind and most people compare him to the professor. But the professor
is blown away by Will's ability; the professor is one of the few
people in the world capable of understanding the gap in their
abilities.

It is just like looking at a sky full of stars...they all seem about
the same distance from earth -- far. But if you start flying away
from the earth, when you reach the closest start, you will gain a new
appreciation for the differing distances. The first star you reach
is just a tiny fraction of the distance to the farthest stars...

Ken
(Firm believer in a simple idea -- if you cannot get a lay person to
understand a concept in less than one minute, you don't know the
concept well enough.)

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "jaydavidson118" <jaydavidson118@y...>
wrote:

Thanks for the replys, I now see the error in my understanding of

how

matchplay works.

I was thinking along the following lines:

walk into two casinos with $5 in your wallet casino A gives you $5

to

play an even money game 1/2 win $10 1/2 0 +$5 walet walk out $10

Caino B match play pull $5 out of wallet 1/2 win $20 + 1/2 0 +o
wallet =$10 I now realize this is wrong you don't get $20 but only
$15 on the win. I thought maybe you get get around this with enough
matchplay but alast you can't

I really appreciate the thoughtful responses Dan, Chris, John,

Harry

···

the ones quoting a text or the brain Anthony Curtis" really don't
help in the analysis or uncovering the mistake...more thoughtful
posts and fewer smart-ass posts would improve the forum. A simple
counter example is always aprreciated.