vpFREE2 Forums

machine's

#21

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "ukstages" <takeme2london@...> wrote: examining the PAR sheet?

Examining the PAR sheet, is a really good guess, but that's not number 3.

Actually, examining the par sheet can be part of doing a frequency study.

A par sheet will only tell you what possible chip-sets the slot can come with. The ones I've seen have between 8-16 possible returns the casino can pick. It does not tell you which particular chip-set they have purchased and installed in the machine sitting in front of you.

It certainly gets you a lot closer, and reduces the number of pulls you need to lock down the return. It also gives you far more confidence in your final evaluation, because you know it has to be 1 of X possible.

So lets add "Examining the PAR sheet" if you can, to Number 1.

That still leaves us with a missing method #3.

~FK

#22

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, Bruce Cohen <brucedcohen2002@...> wrote: Asking the gaming board for their audit record of the machine?

If that is doable, it's one I was unaware of. I thought they only give out that info if there is a serious dispute. Not simply because you ask.

Please correct me if I'm wrong.

~FK

#23

From message 107104:

> When I was shopping for a vp machine, I asked the store owner about the
> payouts on slot machines. He showed me that on older slot machines
> there is a small clear space on the front glass (maybe 3/16 by 1 inch)
> so that you can see the mechanical counters that show the coin-in and
> coin-out of the machine. Then you should be able to calculate the long
> term payout of a particular slot machine.

Dennis
vp-connoisseur

Frank wrote:

···

We called it "Walking the Reels", and I can confirm that this is exactly how we did it. I believe I only had to do it twice, as I came in during the last days of slots as VP was already overshadowing it.

Trying to Determine the return of chip controlled slots is called, "Doing a Frequency Study", and you only count, what lands on the pay-line.

There are three methods for determining modern slot return, that I know of, not all of them legal. Does anyone wish to speculate on what they are???

1. Frequency Study
2. ?
3. ?

#24

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, Meredith And Kenny <meredithandkenny@...> wrote: The Casino posts it.

Very hot: They tell you, but not intentionally.

The question is how?

~FK

#25

By the Pay out Charts.

~ ¤(¯`*•.¸(¯`*•.¸ Meredith ¸.•*´¯)¸.•*´¯)¤ ~
When I die, I want to go peacefully like my Grandfather did, in his sleep -- not screaming, like the passengers in his car.

···

--- On Tue, 1/4/11, Frank <frank@progressivevp.com> wrote:

From: Frank <frank@progressivevp.com>
Subject: [vpFREE] Re: machine's
To: vpFREE@yahoogroups.com
Date: Tuesday, January 4, 2011, 10:35 PM

      --- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, Meredith And Kenny <meredithandkenny@...> wrote: The Casino posts it.

Very hot: They tell you, but not intentionally.

The question is how?

~FK

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

#26

Would someone hurry up and make the right guess. I'm dying to know.

···

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "Frank" <frank@...> wrote:

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, Meredith And Kenny <meredithandkenny@> wrote: The Casino posts it.

Very hot: They tell you, but not intentionally.

The question is how?

~FK

#27

See if you can get it done. If so it would a 4th method, and not one of the three I had.

···

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, Meredith And Kenny <meredithandkenny@...> wrote:

I think I was right. I believe that by Law, the actual Casino has to divulge that information.

~ ¤(¯`*•.¸(¯`*•.¸ Meredith ¸.•*´¯)¸.•*´¯)¤ ~
When I die, I want to go peacefully like my Grandfather did, in his sleep -- not screaming, like the passengers in his car.

--- On Tue, 1/4/11, ukstages <takeme2london@...> wrote:

From: ukstages <takeme2london@...>
Subject: [vpFREE] Re: machine's
To: vpFREE@yahoogroups.com
Date: Tuesday, January 4, 2011, 6:43 AM

Â

examining the PAR sheet?

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "Frank" <frank@> wrote:

>

> We have a winner!

>

> Bribing a slot technician, is correct for the second way.

>

> Anyone have the third?

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

#28

Well that's only on some machines, and it would require statistical analysis. That's not perfect. The third method I know, gives you both the theoretical and actual results of the machine and is perfect.

Nobody?

3. ???

···

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, Cielaszyk <cacti-az@...> wrote:

From message 107104:

> When I was shopping for a vp machine, I asked the store owner about the
> payouts on slot machines. He showed me that on older slot machines
> there is a small clear space on the front glass (maybe 3/16 by 1 inch)
> so that you can see the mechanical counters that show the coin-in and
> coin-out of the machine. Then you should be able to calculate the long
> term payout of a particular slot machine.

Dennis
vp-connoisseur

Frank wrote:

>We called it "Walking the Reels", and I can confirm that this is exactly how we did it. I believe I only had to do it twice, as I came in during the last days of slots as VP was already overshadowing it.
>
>Trying to Determine the return of chip controlled slots is called, "Doing a Frequency Study", and you only count, what lands on the pay-line.
>
>There are three methods for determining modern slot return, that I know of, not all of them legal. Does anyone wish to speculate on what they are???
>
>1. Frequency Study
>2. ?
>3. ?
>
>
>
>
>
>

#29

Would someone hurry up and make the right guess. I'm dying to know.

Me too. I'm headed to the casino in a couple of hours and if it's something that can be checked on the spot, I'd like to try it out.

Kurt

#30

OK I'll just tell everybody. Please understand how big a deal this is. Not too many people know this. I'm giving you a big fish here.

#3 = The accounting department has to key the machine while you are sitting there playing it. ALL the info is readily displayed.

Usually, casinos key their machines once a month, or once a week for accounting purposes. It is almost always late at night and early in the month. You'll see then walking around with a clipboard and security guard escort. They'll walk up and say, "Could you stand back from your machine for just 1 second", it is a more like 5.

On an important bank we camped out on the 1st day of the month, just after midnight. It took around the clock, 1 penny action for three days, before a very pretty accountant came by, keyed it, and revealed all the mysteries of the universe to us.

Obviously, this method requires shifts and a team to accomplish, and is very time consuming. BUT IT IS 100% ACCURATE AND LEGAL. It also helps if you can take a mental picture of the entire screen in under 4 seconds. I assume I'm not the only one that can do that. I've done it 3 times without issue. There is roughly a full page of text to read almost instantly. You are looking for the stat: RATED RETURN =

Speed reading lessons help.

Actual Return, coin-in, and coin-out can be ignored if you know the rated return. It will be in different spots on different brands.

Oh, if I hadn't said so already, you would only do this for a progressive bank with at least 1% meter-rise, that you suspected of being playable. There would be no point on a non-progressive.

Also, it probably isn't possible in casinos with real-time links from accounting to slots. Some do have it, but it's pricey software, probably only in the high-rent joints.

Now remember to keep this a secret:) Boy I am an optimist huh?

~FK

P.S. If you use this and get some returns, feel free to share with the guy that gave you the method.

#31

uh, I said it was posted.

~ ¤(¯`*•.¸(¯`*•.¸ Meredith ¸.•*´¯)¸.•*´¯)¤ ~
When I die, I want to go peacefully like my Grandfather did, in his sleep -- not screaming, like the passengers in his car.

···

--- On Thu, 1/6/11, Frank <frank@progressivevp.com> wrote:

From: Frank <frank@progressivevp.com>
Subject: [vpFREE] Re: machine's
To: vpFREE@yahoogroups.com
Date: Thursday, January 6, 2011, 7:06 AM

OK I'll just tell everybody. Please understand how big a deal this is. Not too many people know this. I'm giving you a big fish here.

#3 = The accounting department has to key the machine while you are sitting there playing it. ALL the info is readily displayed.

Usually, casinos key their machines once a month, or once a week for accounting purposes. It is almost always late at night and early in the month. You'll see then walking around with a clipboard and security guard escort. They'll walk up and say, "Could you stand back from your machine for just 1 second", it is a more like 5.

On an important bank we camped out on the 1st day of the month, just after midnight. It took around the clock, 1 penny action for three days, before a very pretty accountant came by, keyed it, and revealed all the mysteries of the universe to us.

Obviously, this method requires shifts and a team to accomplish, and is very time consuming. BUT IT IS 100% ACCURATE AND LEGAL. It also helps if you can take a mental picture of the entire screen in under 4 seconds. I assume I'm not the only one that can do that. I've done it 3 times without issue. There is roughly a full page of text to read almost instantly. You are looking for the stat: RATED RETURN =

Speed reading lessons help.

Actual Return, coin-in, and coin-out can be ignored if you know the rated return. It will be in different spots on different brands.

Oh, if I hadn't said so already, you would only do this for a progressive bank with at least 1% meter-rise, that you suspected of being playable. There would be no point on a non-progressive.

Also, it probably isn't possible in casinos with real-time links from accounting to slots. Some do have it, but it's pricey software, probably only in the high-rent joints.

Now remember to keep this a secret:) Boy I am an optimist huh?

~FK

P.S. If you use this and get some returns, feel free to share with the guy that gave you the method.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

#32

I think you underestimate the number of casinos that have an accounting system. If there is player-tracking, there is an accounting system. They are one in the same. This will only work in the smallest of casinos, but it is legit.

D

OK I'll just tell everybody. Please understand how big a deal this is. Not too many people know this. I'm giving you a big fish here.

#3 = The accounting department has to key the machine while you are sitting there playing it. ALL the info is readily displayed.

Usually, casinos key their machines once a month, or once a week for accounting purposes. It is almost always late at night and early in the month. You'll see then walking around with a clipboard and security guard escort. They'll walk up and say, "Could you stand back from your machine for just 1 second", it is a more like 5.

[...]

···

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "Frank" <frank@...> wrote:

Also, it probably isn't possible in casinos with real-time links from accounting to slots. Some do have it, but it's pricey software, probably only in the high-rent joints.

#33

I was playing at Caesars Palace LV once when they came by and keyed an entire bank of VP machines, showing the theo, actual hold, etc. Granted this was 4-5 years ago.

···

On Thu, 6 Jan 2011, nickdanger77 wrote:

I think you underestimate the number of casinos that have an accounting system. If there is player-tracking, there is an accounting system. They are one in the same. This will only work in the smallest of casinos, but it is legit.

#34

I always wondered where Tuna got his information on slot progressives. That's some painstaking work to get the rated return.

Question: But wouldn't you still have to know the frequency on the top line hit to figure out a playable number?

I took many a fill on advantage slots. Those machines took lots of fills simply because the hustler cashes out once he gets the bonus. I took many a "3 fills in 24 hours check" where they send a mechanic around to see if the machine is malfunctioning or overpaying. They would sometimes run the display screen through many screens and I got to see the return of the machine.

I got to see the "actual returns" on many a flush attack video poker. We're talking unlinked machines here. I'll give you the difference between flush attacks in two different spots with two different payscales....and why the big difference in what the actual returns were showing.

At the Red Lion in Elko I had no competition. All the action on the machines were from out of state junketeers. They were very bad players. They basically undervalued flush cards. Correct strategy is all 3-card-flushes play over all 2-card-royals. A ploppie type strategy makes a flush about every 90 games where flush 50 creates a flush every 55 games.

The machines at Red Lion were 7/5 flush attacks, 100.78% with correct strategy. When mechanics came around working on the machines I kept an eye out when they were going through the screens and many times they punched up the "actual return" screen. Al the machines were showing between 97% and 98% return.

I would spend about 6 weeks at a time in Elko and averaged an earn of about $1200 a week off those flush attacks. I was there 4 or five times a year. My earn was covered up by the bad play of the ploppies. But I don't know exactly how much percentage wise I was cutting into the house win.

The Pioneer in Laughlin was a different story. They unlinked the flush attacks about 1999. They were 8/5 flush attacks coming in at 101.83% with correct strategy. Slot card was worth .16666% CB, and .33333% comp. Plus there were other promotions like 4K bonus's, etc.

I had lot's of competition from other pros on that bank. It was a straight through play with addons. But the ploppies also played the game. It was a mixture of ploppies and pros. When the ploppies would get up, the pro on the machine just over would cup his/her machine and jump over to the ploppie machine to play it through collecting the bonus flush...then cash out and move back to the play through machine. You added to your bottom line by picking up the 5 for 1 flushes the ploppie made before they left the machine.

We all got a look at the "actual return" on those machines too when mechanics worked on them. The machines ranged from one machine that showed 99.9% to the rest that showed up to 101.2%. What was the big difference between the Red Lion returns and the Pioneer returns? First, the 8/5's are a little over 1% better payback to start with. But why were the Pioneer machines showing returns lower than the rated return if they were getting so much pro action? Because it was a mixture of pro action and ploppie action.

The Pioneer flush attack play lasted about 3 years.

···

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "Frank" <frank@...> wrote:

OK I'll just tell everybody. Please understand how big a deal this is. Not too many people know this. I'm giving you a big fish here.

#3 = The accounting department has to key the machine while you are sitting there playing it. ALL the info is readily displayed.

Usually, casinos key their machines once a month, or once a week for accounting purposes. It is almost always late at night and early in the month. You'll see then walking around with a clipboard and security guard escort. They'll walk up and say, "Could you stand back from your machine for just 1 second", it is a more like 5.

On an important bank we camped out on the 1st day of the month, just after midnight. It took around the clock, 1 penny action for three days, before a very pretty accountant came by, keyed it, and revealed all the mysteries of the universe to us.

Obviously, this method requires shifts and a team to accomplish, and is very time consuming. BUT IT IS 100% ACCURATE AND LEGAL. It also helps if you can take a mental picture of the entire screen in under 4 seconds. I assume I'm not the only one that can do that. I've done it 3 times without issue. There is roughly a full page of text to read almost instantly. You are looking for the stat: RATED RETURN =

Speed reading lessons help.

Actual Return, coin-in, and coin-out can be ignored if you know the rated return. It will be in different spots on different brands.

Oh, if I hadn't said so already, you would only do this for a progressive bank with at least 1% meter-rise, that you suspected of being playable. There would be no point on a non-progressive.

Also, it probably isn't possible in casinos with real-time links from accounting to slots. Some do have it, but it's pricey software, probably only in the high-rent joints.

Now remember to keep this a secret:) Boy I am an optimist huh?

~FK

#35

I was at Morongo Casino last night with a semi-pro live
(not VP) poker player.

We went into the Poker room to check out the action,
as he wanted to maybe play for an hour.

He asked the Poker Room Host about comps, lunch,
etc and she said 'we have no comps or comp money,
very sorry'. So we left.

The pay tables on the VP machines, including the
two 9/6 JoB Full Pay on one coin have been modified
all around and the Dueces Wild has some of the
pays shortened, too.

While scouting for other VP machines, I came by a
huge bank lf flame red Progressive video rells called
"HOT SHOT Progressive".

Is this what you old pros were talking about?
They had a much of what appeared to be tourists,
nobody seeming very serious, playing them, and
there were five, count 'em, five different progressives
ranging from just a few bucks all the way up to some
very very big money.

I am just not smart enough to figure out how big
those progresive banks have to get to make the
game positive, but I can tell you if a good pro
could figure that, there are long periods of slow
time in that casino during the weekdays.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

#36

You should comsider returning to Morongo and examining ALL of the Deuces Wild. You might find a good play if you do. This is assuming max bet, not one coin.

···

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, Bruce Cohen <brucedcohen2002@...> wrote:

I was at Morongo Casino last night with a semi-pro live
(not VP) poker player.

The pay tables on the VP machines, including the
two 9/6 JoB Full Pay on one coin have been modified
all around and the Dueces Wild has some of the
pays shortened, too.

#37

Divide the reset amount by the bet size and multiply by 50, refine based on any other information you can gather.

···

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "Mickey" <mickeycrimm@...> wrote:

I always wondered where Tuna got his information on slot progressives. That's some painstaking work to get the rated return.
Question: But wouldn't you still have to know the frequency on the top line hit to figure out a playable number?