vpFREE2 Forums

Machine malfunction in my favor

Jeep, I'll stick my neck out and say that I think you're right. The
difference between a regular slot reel and the WoF wheel is that one cannot easily see
how many spaces there are on the slot reels, but we sure can on the WoF
wheel. All of us here (I hope) understand that the RNG will determine many more
stops than the ones we can see, but your average casino visitor will not
understand that. They will believe that the bonus round actually presents 1 chance
vs. how many visible spots to hit the 1,000 coin award. For example, with a
"00" roulette wheel, great pains are taken to insure that each number has a
truly random 1 in 37 chance of hitting on any given spin, yet the WoF game is
allowed to behave in a nonrandom manner. Just because the machine is electrical
should not be an excuse for the game to be deliberately deceptive.

- Brian in MI

whitejeeps@yahoo.com writes:

It would be nice to hear someone comment mildly; "Hey there Jeep.
That's a different way to look at it." I don't even expect a 'maybe
your right'.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Anyone who looks at a slot machine and thinks they have a "1-in-whatever"
chance of winning - just because that's what it appears to be - is an....

....well, it doesn't really matter what I think....

BTW, on a "00" roulette wheel, each number has a 1 in 38 chance of coming
up.

···

On 9/11/06, Marksalot300@aol.com <Marksalot300@aol.com> wrote:

Jeep, I'll stick my neck out and say that I think you're right. The
difference between a regular slot reel and the WoF wheel is that one
cannot easily see
how many spaces there are on the slot reels, but we sure can on the WoF
wheel. All of us here (I hope) understand that the RNG will determine
many more
stops than the ones we can see, but your average casino visitor will not
understand that. They will believe that the bonus round actually presents
1 chance
vs. how many visible spots to hit the 1,000 coin award. For example, with
a
"00" roulette wheel, great pains are taken to insure that each number has
a
truly random 1 in 37 chance of hitting on any given spin, yet the WoF game
is
allowed to behave in a nonrandom manner. Just because the machine is
electrical
should not be an excuse for the game to be deliberately deceptive.

- Brian in MI

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

I agree (not that opinions expressed here carry any weight with Nevada
Gaming) that a wheel with equally sized spaces should have an equal
chance of hitting any space. Similar to the regulation that a
representation of cards or dice must act in the same random way as
cards or dice. I haven't ever played the carnival wheel game, but if
I did I would expect that it's not legal to rig it.

I've never played a slot machine or a WoF, so I never really thought
about how they pay out.

···

On 9/11/06, Marksalot300@aol.com <Marksalot300@aol.com> wrote:

Jeep, I'll stick my neck out and say that I think you're right. The
difference between a regular slot reel and the WoF wheel is that one cannot easily see
how many spaces there are on the slot reels, but we sure can on the WoF
wheel. All of us here (I hope) understand that the RNG will determine many more
stops than the ones we can see, but your average casino visitor will not
understand that. They will believe that the bonus round actually presents 1 chance
vs. how many visible spots to hit the 1,000 coin award. For example, with a
"00" roulette wheel, great pains are taken to insure that each number has a
truly random 1 in 37 chance of hitting on any given spin, yet the WoF game is
allowed to behave in a nonrandom manner. Just because the machine is electrical
should not be an excuse for the game to be deliberately deceptive.

- Brian in MI

whitejeeps@yahoo.com writes:

> It would be nice to hear someone comment mildly; "Hey there Jeep.
> That's a different way to look at it." I don't even expect a 'maybe
> your right'.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

vpFREE Links: http://members.cox.net/vpfree/Links.htm

Yahoo! Groups Links

Curtis Rich wrote:

Anyone who looks at a slot machine and thinks they have a
"1-in-whatever" chance of winning - just because that's what it
appears to be - is an....

... typical casino patron??

My estimate of the quantitative judgement of the average slot patron
runs pretty low.

However, I ask myself a larger question -- does the existance of
additional virtual stops significantly impair a player's ability to
accurately assess the odds on their wager? Not at all -- they don't
have a hope from the start.

For that reason, I'm willing to grant the casinos/manufacturers
sizable leeway in machine design in the interest of practical and
aesthetic considerations.

- Harry

Hear, hear!

···

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, Marksalot300@... wrote:

Just because the machine is electrical
should not be an excuse for the game to be deliberately deceptive.

<<Not one to play reel slots, I had no idea that the Wheel is crooked. >>

Here is a quote from the chapter on slots in "More Frugal Gambling."

"Now comes the "moment of truth" about bonusing. I need to clear up a couple common misconceptions. The word "bonus" here does not mean you will win more. The base game is lowered in order to give that "bonus." The total payback, base game plus bonus game, of these machines is in line with the other machines of that denomination in the casino. The bonus game will probably give you more excitement-it might even allow you to stretch your fun time out a little longer. But it won't put any more money in your pocket.

     Now, I really hate to have to write about the next misconception; I feel like I'm telling a room full of kindergartners that there's no Santa Claus or Tooth Fairy. If you don't want to have your dreams spoiled, then you better skip these next few paragraphs.

     Let's examine the Wheel of Fortune for a lesson. I often stop to watch when the bonus is activated on this machine; I bet you do too. You can actually see the player and the watchers with big eyes, holding their breath as the wheel slows down near a big number. And when it just misses, you can hear the collective sigh of disappointment. I know most people think that the player almost had that big payoff, that if the momentum of the wheel had been just a little more, or less, the player would have hit "the big one." Casinos-and slot manufacturers-know human nature; they know that this feature will get people to play longer. "I'm getting so close! I can just feel that I'm going to hit the big payoff soon."

     The fact of the matter is that this player had no chance of getting the big bonus on this particular spin even though the wheel almost got to the largest number. Bonus wins are chosen the same way the base game chooses outcomes: by the RNG. The bonus had already been chosen by the RNG before the wheel started turning. You don't have an equal chance of the wheel stopping at any one of the bonus number. This isn't a mechanical wheel governed by the laws of gravity; it's an electronic device governed by the RNG, operating in the same way I talked about earlier in this chapter.

     Frank Legato explained this in a very informative article called Slots 101, in the April 2001 issue of Casino Player: "The bonus amount you are getting has already been chosen by the RNG when you enter the bonus round. Some games even use a separate RNG program for the bonus round, and choose the result as soon as the bonus trigger lands. Either way, your bonus has already been determined."

     True, there are some games in which your choice does make a difference. The RNG picks a whole screen of bonus amounts on games like Jackpot Party, Little Green Men, and The Addams Family, and you get the bonus you choose. Therefore, even with this system, there's no way for you to know how to pick the highest one, so this information is really not usable.

      This randomness of the bonus is even true on bonus games that seem to require some skill, for example, the pinball slot. Frank Legato says that this is "perceived skill," only because "it would be illegal in almost all gaming jurisdictions for skill and dexterity to gain a higher bonus; a level playing field is required."

      Okay. All you dreamers can start reading again."

···

________________________________________
Jean $�ott
"FRUGAL VIDEO POKER" - Pre-pub
orders for this new book now taken at
http://www.FrugalGambler.biz

Of course, everything you said is true, Jean. And, I think most people
in the casino already know this. But, I don't think you changed any of
the minds of those members of this Group who still think that this
practice is "deceptive and wrong."

Jean, do you think that this practice is "deceptive and wrong?"

···

On 9/11/06, Jean Scott <QueenofComps@frugalgambler.biz> wrote:

<<Not one to play reel slots, I had no idea that the Wheel is crooked. >>

Here is a quote from the chapter on slots in "More Frugal Gambling."

"Now comes the "moment of truth" about bonusing. I need to clear up a
couple
common misconceptions. The word "bonus" here does not mean you will win
more. The base game is lowered in order to give that "bonus." The total
payback, base game plus bonus game, of these machines is in line with the
other machines of that denomination in the casino. The bonus game will
probably give you more excitement-it might even allow you to stretch your
fun time out a little longer. But it won't put any more money in your
pocket.

    Now, I really hate to have to write about the next misconception; I
feel like I'm telling a room full of kindergartners that there's no Santa
Claus or Tooth Fairy. If you don't want to have your dreams spoiled, then
you better skip these next few paragraphs.

    Let's examine the Wheel of Fortune for a lesson. I often stop to watch
when the bonus is activated on this machine; I bet you do too. You can
actually see the player and the watchers with big eyes, holding their
breath
as the wheel slows down near a big number. And when it just misses, you
can
hear the collective sigh of disappointment. I know most people think that
the player almost had that big payoff, that if the momentum of the wheel
had
been just a little more, or less, the player would have hit "the big one."
Casinos-and slot manufacturers-know human nature; they know that this
feature will get people to play longer. "I'm getting so close! I can just
feel that I'm going to hit the big payoff soon."

    The fact of the matter is that this player had no chance of getting
the
big bonus on this particular spin even though the wheel almost got to the
largest number. Bonus wins are chosen the same way the base game chooses
outcomes: by the RNG. The bonus had already been chosen by the RNG before
the wheel started turning. You don't have an equal chance of the wheel
stopping at any one of the bonus number. This isn't a mechanical wheel
governed by the laws of gravity; it's an electronic device governed by the
RNG, operating in the same way I talked about earlier in this chapter.

    Frank Legato explained this in a very informative article called Slots
101, in the April 2001 issue of Casino Player: "The bonus amount you are
getting has already been chosen by the RNG when you enter the bonus round.
Some games even use a separate RNG program for the bonus round, and choose
the result as soon as the bonus trigger lands. Either way, your bonus has
already been determined."

    True, there are some games in which your choice does make a
difference.
The RNG picks a whole screen of bonus amounts on games like Jackpot Party,
Little Green Men, and The Addams Family, and you get the bonus you choose.
Therefore, even with this system, there's no way for you to know how to
pick
the highest one, so this information is really not usable.

     This randomness of the bonus is even true on bonus games that seem to
require some skill, for example, the pinball slot. Frank Legato says that
this is "perceived skill," only because "it would be illegal in almost all
gaming jurisdictions for skill and dexterity to gain a higher bonus; a
level
playing field is required."

     Okay. All you dreamers can start reading again."

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Curtis Rich wrote:

Of course, everything you said is true, Jean. And, I think most
people in the casino already know this. But, I don't think you
changed any of the minds of those members of this Group who still
think that this practice is "deceptive and wrong."

Curtis, you know from my post that I share your perspective on the
general question of potentially misleading bonusing probabilities.

However, factor that you'd expect with WOF (and other wheel games) the
lowest bonuses would have the highest probability of coming up the
winner. I don't recall the specifc WOF wheel bonus configuration, but
I believe that the bonuses immediately adjacent to "1000" are among
the lowest. That means that there are going to be a relatively high
number of perceived "near misses".

Now, it might be argued that this is hardly an intentional occurrance,
but just incidental to the mechanics of the prize amounts -- but, that
would be an admittedly very weak argument.

If I recall correctly, there's either an informal or, perhaps,
statutory prohibition against near miss mechanisms in slot machines.
I don't think even under a "technicality" reasoning that you could
state that the WOF's pass muster under this expectation (if I'm
correct about the value of the adjacent positions).

- Harry

Hi Harry

Not directing this post at anyone, but yours is the last post I read.
I respond to you Curtis and Jean all at once. Near miss was not
allowed in 90s and had to be programed out of some of the slots. Of
course I have been accused, in the past, of getting things all
wrong. A quick search of - Universal near miss slots - will reveal
gaming regulators have , at least, regulated such instances in the
past. Not only do a few of us think a fair deck would be nice, in the
past some rogue regulators thought it would be nice to have fair
deck. My problem is I live in the past. Modern thinking is skewed
toward liberal rules for casino.

If my info on Universal having to reprogram near miss games is
correct, why should it be different now? Why shouldn't we insist in
fair play without exception? Is the fact that the games can be more
entertaining by allowing near miss technolegy reason to be happy with
them? Can we justify this practice by saying slot players are stupid
so whats the difference? They will lose anyway.

One more thought. Maybe it makes sense to to let the manfacturers
alone as long as vp stays the same. Don't even discuss it. I don't
think Ken Uston really helped the bj players when he went to court
with Jersey casinos. He won but didn't really help the bj game. But,
that's another story for another form.

As far as beating a dead horse, this ones almost dead.(I'm refering
to near miss subject) I think someone said it best on one of these
forms; The only thing worse than beating a dead horse is betting on
one.

Cheers to all....Jeep

.
.--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "Harry Porter" <harry.porter@...>
wrote:

Curtis Rich wrote:
> Of course, everything you said is true, Jean. And, I think most
> people in the casino already know this. But, I don't think you
> changed any of the minds of those members of this Group who still
> think that this practice is "deceptive and wrong."

Curtis, you know from my post that I share your perspective on the
general question of potentially misleading bonusing probabilities.

However, factor that you'd expect with WOF (and other wheel games)

the

lowest bonuses would have the highest probability of coming up the
winner. I don't recall the specifc WOF wheel bonus configuration,

but

I believe that the bonuses immediately adjacent to "1000" are among
the lowest. That means that there are going to be a relatively high
number of perceived "near misses".

Now, it might be argued that this is hardly an intentional

occurrance,

but just incidental to the mechanics of the prize amounts -- but,

that

would be an admittedly very weak argument.

If I recall correctly, there's either an informal or, perhaps,
statutory prohibition against near miss mechanisms in slot

machines.

···

I don't think even under a "technicality" reasoning that you could
state that the WOF's pass muster under this expectation (if I'm
correct about the value of the adjacent positions).

- Harry

While I understand the arguments, and don't personally expect a 1/22
chance of winning a bonus jackpot, the idea of fiddling with apparent
statistics just bothers me. People get a gut feel for probability by
watching the world. Dice should behave like dice, cards like cards,
and wheels like wheels. Anytime you manipulate apparent physics to
fit a predefined goal, you whittle away at the general gut feel. And
all it would take to make things a little better would be a simple
scree that says "During a bonus round

probability of hitting a 1 coin bonus: 90%
2 coin bonus 5%
...
1000 coin bonus .00000000000000000000000000000000000001%

It seems like it would take so little work to make it more honest. Of
course this doesn't take into account the fiddling with apparent
physics, but at least it gives the player a warning that a physics
fiddle is going on.

- John

···

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "Harry Porter" <harry.porter@...> wrote:

Curtis Rich wrote:
> Of course, everything you said is true, Jean. And, I think most
> people in the casino already know this. But, I don't think you
> changed any of the minds of those members of this Group who still
> think that this practice is "deceptive and wrong."

Curtis, you know from my post that I share your perspective on the
general question of potentially misleading bonusing probabilities.

However, factor that you'd expect with WOF (and other wheel games) the
lowest bonuses would have the highest probability of coming up the
winner. I don't recall the specifc WOF wheel bonus configuration, but
I believe that the bonuses immediately adjacent to "1000" are among
the lowest. That means that there are going to be a relatively high
number of perceived "near misses".

Now, it might be argued that this is hardly an intentional occurrance,
but just incidental to the mechanics of the prize amounts -- but, that
would be an admittedly very weak argument.

If I recall correctly, there's either an informal or, perhaps,
statutory prohibition against near miss mechanisms in slot machines.
I don't think even under a "technicality" reasoning that you could
state that the WOF's pass muster under this expectation (if I'm
correct about the value of the adjacent positions).

- Harry

For my curiosity -- why don't you consider the weighted chances of
symbols coming up on a reel the same way?

···

At 08:43 AM 9/12/2006, you wrote:

While I understand the arguments, and don't personally expect a 1/22
chance of winning a bonus jackpot, the idea of fiddling with apparent
statistics just bothers me. People get a gut feel for probability by
watching the world. Dice should behave like dice, cards like cards,
and wheels like wheels. Anytime you manipulate apparent physics to
fit a predefined goal, you whittle away at the general gut feel. And
all it would take to make things a little better would be a simple
scree that says "During a bonus round

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

<<Jean, do you think that this practice is "deceptive and wrong?">>

Life is not "fair," as I told my kids when they were growing up - and now I tell that to my grandchildren. Casinos are businesses that plan to make money. Are they greedy? Does the oil business take advantage of us. Utility companies?

I don't spend very much time worrying or even thinking about such things. I find it much more profitable to thinking about how I can be more financially successful in an "unfair" world. I can turn off my lights when I leave a room. I can walk more instead of driving every little distance. And I can study the casino industry inside and out for hours every week, as I have done for the last 21 years.

And then I write books that will save others years of personal trial-and-error and searching.

By the way, "Frugal Video Poker" is in and shipping just as soon as I can personally autograph each one and Brad can stuff them in the Priority envelope and run them to the P.O.

···

________________________________________
Jean $�ott
"FRUGAL VIDEO POKER" - Pre-pub
orders for this new book now taken at
http://www.FrugalGambler.biz

If I could see the "reels" I probably would. However, virtual reels
have so many "stops" that the analysis becomes impossible. If any
company actually went to the effort to list the contens of each reel,
then I absolutely would feel the same way. I think that the ambiguity
of slots is part of why I don't like them. OK, that and the 80%
payouts :wink:

- John

···

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, Bill Coleman <vphobby2@...> wrote:

For my curiosity -- why don't you consider the weighted chances of
symbols coming up on a reel the same way?

At 08:43 AM 9/12/2006, you wrote:
>While I understand the arguments, and don't personally expect a 1/22
>chance of winning a bonus jackpot, the idea of fiddling with apparent
>statistics just bothers me. People get a gut feel for probability by
>watching the world. Dice should behave like dice, cards like cards,
>and wheels like wheels. Anytime you manipulate apparent physics to
>fit a predefined goal, you whittle away at the general gut feel. And
>all it would take to make things a little better would be a simple
>scree that says "During a bonus round

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

You can easily map the reels, it just takes a few spins. There are
only 22 or 25 physical stops. You cannot map the virtual stops, that
would be like mapping the virtual stops of the bonus wheel

···

At 10:39 AM 9/12/2006, you wrote:

If I could see the "reels" I probably would. However, virtual reels
have so many "stops" that the analysis becomes impossible. If any
company actually went to the effort to list the contens of each reel,
then I absolutely would feel the same way. I think that the ambiguity
of slots is part of why I don't like them. OK, that and the 80%
payouts :wink:

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

While I understand the arguments, and don't personally expect a 1/22
chance of winning a bonus jackpot, the idea of fiddling with

apparent

statistics just bothers me. People get a gut feel for probability

by

watching the world. Dice should behave like dice, cards like cards,
and wheels like wheels. Anytime you manipulate apparent physics to
fit a predefined goal, you whittle away at the general gut feel.

Great point. There is a name for this concept in control mechanisms
and user interfaces. I'll remember it later.

We are used to the analog world, and associate a wheel with certain
properties, dice with certain properties, ...

If there is a deck of shuffled cards on the table, and I pick a card,
I expect any of the 52 cards to be equally likely. However, I can
simulate a deck of cards in a computer program, even show the deck on
a screen, as it is being shuffled, and give you a Hold button, which
displays the selected card when you hit it. And I can program
different probabiities to each of the 52 cards, so I can skew the
distribution anyway I want it.

Take Super Times Poker. They show the SuperTimes number getting
juggled (and in my case, it always pauses tantalizingly at a large
number, before dropping down to a mundane level, and shifts to the
left), before settling down. Nobody associates the resulting number
to be from a uniform distribution.

But put the same set of numbers on a wheel, and spin it, and let it
settle. There is the expectation that all the numbers on the wheel
are equally likely. Well, to qualify that, they could put more two's
and three's and fewer eight's and nine's. Which immediately informs
the player that the likelihood of getting a x8 or x9 is much less
than a x2 or a x3.

It is a simple matter of Truth in Advertising. And being Honest, like
a regular business.

Consider the analogy of a Double Double Bonus game, where the quads
and kickers pay a whole lot and add to the excitement. True. But even
the most naive player knows that while they pay a lot, they are a
whole lot less likely. No one for a split second thinks that all the
outcomes in the 12 or 13 rows in the paytable are equally likely.

Symbols convey meanings. And they are used precisely because of that.

Would it kill the casino cheap suits to put a label on the machine
saying that "Not All The Bonus Amounts on the Wheel are Equally
Likely". Then all of this argument simply vanishes, even if I think
there is a certain amount of dishonesty in using the device of the
wheel to convey a certain amount of regularity in the outcomes.

All of this is strictly academic for me. I don't play the reel slots.

···

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "murphyfields" <jkludge@...> wrote:

IMHO, you ducked the question.

Most of us realize the unfairness of certain things in life, but we
are not unaware of them. If I have been playing at a machine for an
hour not really getting any substantial hand, and another player
lands a Royal Flush within five minutes of playing, I may think it is
unfair, but not deceptive.

A wheel is a very basic symbol, whose behaviour is permanently
engraved in our minds. Using it to convey a behaviour that is
untypical of the wheel is deceptive.

If several virtual cards are added to the 52 card deck (a lot more
low cards in a Jacks or Better game), and this fact is not posted on
the game machine, you would not think it is just unfair. I think you
would squarely brand it as deception.

···

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "Jean Scott" <QueenofComps@...> wrote:

Life is not "fair," as I told my kids when they were growing up -
and now I tell that to my grandchildren. Casinos are businesses
that plan to make money. Are they greedy? Does the oil business
take advantage of us. Utility companies?