Machine malfunction in my favor

[misscraps]

Over the years I've read about various machine malfunction such as $25 coins
coming out of $5 machines, $100 buying $1000 worth of play, extra points,
and so on, but in the last 7 years or so of heavy VP and slot play, never had
any.

But earlier this week finally had a good one. I was playing a $5 "wheel"
type of machine - you know, one of the ones with a bonus wheel. The Spin
symbol came up, and the number spun to 25 ($125 payout). But instead of paying
out, the beep beep beep continued too long and no 25 credits rang up on the
machine.

I figured the ball had gotten stuck or the machine had frozen up. I hit
the "service" button. Finally the beep beep beep stopped and the words "HP
200" showed up on the little screen where the payout credits usually showed.

I figured this was some sort of error message.

Along came an attendant. I said - "The machine is frozen, it didn't pay out
25" (coins)

The attendant said, "you won $1000."

I said "the machine is stuck, there is an error number showing in the
window."

She said "You won $1000."

I said, "I did?"

She proceeded to hand pay me $1000 and write it up (for her hand pay
records). [I finally realized HP 200 meant Hand Pay 200 coins.]

I knew she was wrong, but if she was going to pay me when the ball was
obviously at the 25, well okay.

(If it was stuck anywhere it was between 25 and 100 - not the 200 number for
$1000.)

She paid me and went away.

I played a little more - no more malfunctions.

A few minutes later the attendant came back and said "which jackpot did you
get?" Maybe something had clicked that it was wrong, perhaps?

"I don't know." I said (truthfully)

"It must have been the bonus" she said (meaning the wheel)

"I don't know." I said.

"Yes, the bonus." she said and walked away.

I played another minute and left because I had to meet people.

A few hours later I came back, machine empty. Sat and played for about 2
hours. No malfunctions, no problems.

Odd.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[ale]

lol. you are one of the honest guy left on this earth. lmaorf!

···

--- misscraps@aol.com wrote:

Over the years I've read about various machine
malfunction such as $25 coins
coming out of $5 machines, $100 buying $1000 worth
of play, extra points,
and so on, but in the last 7 years or so of heavy VP
and slot play, never had
any.

But earlier this week finally had a good one. I was
playing a $5 "wheel"
type of machine - you know, one of the ones with a
bonus wheel. The Spin
symbol came up, and the number spun to 25 ($125
payout). But instead of paying
out, the beep beep beep continued too long and no 25
credits rang up on the
machine.

I figured the ball had gotten stuck or the machine
had frozen up. I hit
the "service" button. Finally the beep beep beep
stopped and the words "HP
200" showed up on the little screen where the payout
credits usually showed.

I figured this was some sort of error message.

Along came an attendant. I said - "The machine is
frozen, it didn't pay out
25" (coins)

The attendant said, "you won $1000."

I said "the machine is stuck, there is an error
number showing in the
window."

She said "You won $1000."

I said, "I did?"

She proceeded to hand pay me $1000 and write it up
(for her hand pay
records). [I finally realized HP 200 meant Hand Pay
200 coins.]

I knew she was wrong, but if she was going to pay me
when the ball was
obviously at the 25, well okay.

(If it was stuck anywhere it was between 25 and 100
- not the 200 number for
$1000.)

She paid me and went away.

I played a little more - no more malfunctions.

A few minutes later the attendant came back and said
"which jackpot did you
get?" Maybe something had clicked that it was
wrong, perhaps?

"I don't know." I said (truthfully)

"It must have been the bonus" she said (meaning the
wheel)

"I don't know." I said.

"Yes, the bonus." she said and walked away.

I played another minute and left because I had to
meet people.

A few hours later I came back, machine empty. Sat
and played for about 2
hours. No malfunctions, no problems.

Odd.

[Non-text portions of this message have been
removed]

__________________________________________________
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[GOLDFADA]

On the "wheel" type of machine, the wheel doesn't determine the
result. The result is determined by the RNG before the wheel begins
to spin. (In other words, the spin itself is not random.) In your
case, the RNG determined that you won $1,000, which was confirmed by
the "HP 200" on the credits screen. The fact that the wheel showed
something different was immaterial.

I was playing a $5 "wheel" type of machine - you know, one of the
ones with a bonus wheel. The Spin symbol came up, and the number
spun to 25 ($125 payout). But instead of paying out, the beep beep
beep continued too long and no 25 credits rang up on the machine.
  
I figured the ball had gotten stuck or the machine had frozen up.
I hit the "service" button. Finally the beep beep beep stopped and
the words "HP 200" showed up on the little screen where the payout
credits usually showed.

I figured this was some sort of error message.

Along came an attendant. I said - "The machine is frozen, it didn't
pay out 25" (coins)The attendant said, "you won $1000." I said "the
machine is stuck, there is an error number showing in the window."

She said "You won $1000."

I said, "I did?"

She proceeded to hand pay me $1000 and write it up (for her hand pay
records). [I finally realized HP 200 meant Hand Pay 200 coins.]
  
I knew she was wrong, but if she was going to pay me when the ball
was obviously at the 25, well okay.

···

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, misscraps@... wrote:

[whitejeeps]

In addition it's easily confirmed they work this way. Cruise down a
row of Wheels and count the number of top hits are posted as the last
hit. I don't recall the exact number of stops on the wheel. However
if it's say 20 then the 'jackpot' should be the last hit - one in 20
of the last group of stops. Maybe not exactly but roughly the random
number. A quick count will show the big one doesn't come up near as
often as should. Thus, more proof the wheel spin is not random.

I think the machines should be posted for all to read that the wheel
is fixed. The wheel is displayed for all to see. Is it too far of a
streach to expect a fair spin? As far as I'm concerned it's no
different than the big live wheels with a live operator spinning the
wheel. Then giving him a device that would stop wheel to cheat the
player. "Oh, by the way, we just cheat the customer randomly. We
determine when we cheat them before we spin the wheel." I often
wondered why Nevada gaming allowed this game as it is. Could rules
be twisted to consider it fair to post on vp machines that a 52 card
deck is used but use a 'random' pick that randomly picks non royal
cards more randomly. They don't give fair spin on a wheel that's
displayed, in your face, for all to count the spots. What stops them
from doing the same thing on the the vp with 52 stops on the
electronic deck?

Don't take this wrong, I still think the vp is random. Just food for
thought.

Cheers....Jeep
.
.

On the "wheel" type of machine, the wheel doesn't determine the
result. The result is determined by the RNG before the wheel

begins

to spin. (In other words, the spin itself is not random.) In your
case, the RNG determined that you won $1,000, which was confirmed

by

the "HP 200" on the credits screen. The fact that the wheel showed
something different was immaterial.

I was playing a $5 "wheel" type of machine - you know, one of the
ones with a bonus wheel. The Spin symbol came up, and the number
spun to 25 ($125 payout). But instead of paying out, the beep beep
beep continued too long and no 25 credits rang up on the machine.
  
I figured the ball had gotten stuck or the machine had frozen

up.

I hit the "service" button. Finally the beep beep beep stopped

and

the words "HP 200" showed up on the little screen where the payout
credits usually showed.

I figured this was some sort of error message.

Along came an attendant. I said - "The machine is frozen, it

didn't

pay out 25" (coins)The attendant said, "you won $1000." I said "the
machine is stuck, there is an error number showing in the window."

She said "You won $1000."

I said, "I did?"

She proceeded to hand pay me $1000 and write it up (for her hand

pay

···

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "GOLDFADA" <GOLDFADA@...> wrote:

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, misscraps@ wrote:
records). [I finally realized HP 200 meant Hand Pay 200 coins.]
  
I knew she was wrong, but if she was going to pay me when the ball
was obviously at the 25, well okay.
>

[Bill_Coleman1]

It's not "fixed" anymore than any other slot action is. If the reels
have 22 physical stops it actually has hundreds of virtual stops,
permitting large jackpots. There is nothing that indicate that the
bonus wheel has an equal chance of stopping at any number. In fact,
they are quite open about the fact that there are virtual stops
there, too. It's totally random but there are more opportunities for
20 credits than 1000. Each virtual stop has an equal chance of being
selected. That's what randomness is all about. This is not an
opinion, it is verifiable fact. For more information call Nevada
Gaming control. They will put you through to Enforcement who will
explain it to you.

Also the regs that require vp to be dealt with each card having an
equal chance to appear have been posted here numerous times. In fact,
New Jersey has NO such regulation but by custom no machine would ever
be approved that did not function the same way as Nevada. There are
also jurisdictions that permit vp machines to be random but work differently.

···

At 08:22 AM 9/10/2006, you wrote:

I think the machines should be posted for all to read that the wheel
is fixed. The wheel is displayed for all to see. Is it too far of a
streach to expect a fair spin? As far as I'm concerned it's no
different than the big live wheels with a live operator spinning the
wheel. Then giving him a device that would stop wheel to cheat the
player. "Oh, by the way, we just cheat the customer randomly. We
determine when we cheat them before we spin the wheel." I often
wondered why Nevada gaming allowed this game as it is. Could rules
be twisted to consider it fair to post on vp machines that a 52 card
deck is used but use a 'random' pick that randomly picks non royal
cards more randomly. They don't give fair spin on a wheel that's
displayed, in your face, for all to count the spots. What stops them
from doing the same thing on the the vp with 52 stops on the
electronic deck?

Don't take this wrong, I still think the vp is random. Just food for
thought.

Cheers....Jeep
.
.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[Adams_Myth]

Another instance of "Casinos are just regular businesses".

Many of the local grocery stores here have a policy that if an item is
scanned wrong, they will give it free; limit one per customer. They
don't quibble that there was a blister on the bar code, or a drop of
water on the scanning surface, that the night help entered data wrong,
that the price on the shelf is only for entertainment purposes, ...

Casinos seem to be an exception; an exception sanctioned by the state
gambling commissions and legislatures.

···

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "whitejeeps" <whitejeeps@...> wrote:

"Oh, by the way, we just cheat the customer randomly. We
determine when we cheat them before we spin the wheel."

[whitejeeps]

Gee, maybe you are a slot machine distributor. Let me change fixed to
a customer being deceived. It is reasonable for a player to think if
the wheel displays the stops in front of you then that's how many
stops there are. If you think about it, I never mentioned one thing
about the reels. You may or may not remember the problems Universal
slots had with their near miss reels. The customer was deceived. IGT
complained to gaming control accusing Universal of having machines
that were not random. Universal simply said the machines were random
and when a 'random' loser was picked then the reel stops were picked
from a 'random' pool rich in close calls. Universal had no intention
to deceive. Bottom line...Gaming control required Universal to re
program these slots. At that time in the 80s gaming control wanted
the machines to act more like electro-mechanical slots. Universal had
a lot of slots on the street. IGT wasn't the king of all slots then.
By the way, today slots all seem to do the near miss thing. Times
have changed and casino control allows the fox to eat any of the
chickens it wants to.

Yes there is nothing to indicate bonus wheel has an equal chance of
stopping at any number. That's the point; what you see you should
get. Otherwise it should be posted. If you read the post more
carefully you might notice I don't question randomness. However, you
mention there is no rules for vp in Jersey. You also mention
by "custom" no machine would be approved that wouldn't meet Nevada
rules. Now there is a rule with teeth, "custom".

I don't understand why you went off on this tangent attempting to
explain random; My last statement stated I believe vp random. I laugh
when folks say the law says slots have to be random. Slots are by
nature random. You understand, no slot manufacturer indicates number
of symbols on the reels. Therefore, random means nothing to player.
That was not even the subject. The question or statement was; if the
wheel is displayed it might be reasonable to expect a fair shake as
though it were a real live reel. As I think this over again, perhaps
fixed is the right term. If machine displays the whole wheel I expect
it to spin just like the wheel spins on tv. Only exception would be
if it's posted differently. It's just my opinion. I can't understand
why you can't even consider this is a reasonable expectation.

Why would I want to call gaming control? Probably their main job is
to back up casino when it wants to prosecute some slot cheat or bj
player that might be trying to get a glimpse of someone elses cards
from a reflection on another players glasses. The key word here
is "probably". You don't have to post how main job of control is to
look out for player. I would never trust someone else to tell me the
vp games are fair. As in the past and today I trust my records. I
rely on my win loss records to verify if the games are fair or
playing to my standards.

Please understand, this is friendly banter. It's just ideas and food
for thought.

Cheers....Jeep
.
.

It's not "fixed" anymore than any other slot action is. If the

reels

have 22 physical stops it actually has hundreds of virtual stops,
permitting large jackpots. There is nothing that indicate that the
bonus wheel has an equal chance of stopping at any number. In fact,
they are quite open about the fact that there are virtual stops
there, too. It's totally random but there are more opportunities

for

20 credits than 1000. Each virtual stop has an equal chance of

being

selected. That's what randomness is all about. This is not an
opinion, it is verifiable fact. For more information call Nevada
Gaming control. They will put you through to Enforcement who will
explain it to you.

Also the regs that require vp to be dealt with each card having an
equal chance to appear have been posted here numerous times. In

fact,

New Jersey has NO such regulation but by custom no machine would

ever

be approved that did not function the same way as Nevada. There are
also jurisdictions that permit vp machines to be random but work

differently.

>I think the machines should be posted for all to read that the

wheel

>is fixed. The wheel is displayed for all to see. Is it too far of a
>streach to expect a fair spin? As far as I'm concerned it's no
>different than the big live wheels with a live operator spinning

the

>wheel. Then giving him a device that would stop wheel to cheat the
>player. "Oh, by the way, we just cheat the customer randomly. We
>determine when we cheat them before we spin the wheel." I often
>wondered why Nevada gaming allowed this game as it is. Could rules
>be twisted to consider it fair to post on vp machines that a 52

card

>deck is used but use a 'random' pick that randomly picks non royal
>cards more randomly. They don't give fair spin on a wheel that's
>displayed, in your face, for all to count the spots. What stops

them

>from doing the same thing on the the vp with 52 stops on the
>electronic deck?
>
>Don't take this wrong, I still think the vp is random. Just food

for

···

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, Bill Coleman <vphobby2@...> wrote:

At 08:22 AM 9/10/2006, you wrote:
>thought.
>
>Cheers....Jeep
>.
>.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[Bill_Coleman1]

I agree, it's not personal. However, there is a flaw in your
argument. Most fourth-graders could easily map the reels of a slot
fairly quickly (it would be a little longer on a video slot but can
easily be done). By your logic, people should then think each symbol
has an equal chance of hitting.

Most people know that slots are weighted so certain results come up
more often than if they were mechanical. And if they don't they
should since risking money with no research or information is foolish
and I have no patience for fools.

Let's take some other bonus rounds. In many video slots when the
choices appear on the screen the values are set and which one you
choose "makes a difference". But many others pre-pick the bonus
amount and your choices are merely part of the display. Is the latter "unfair"?

The person who told Linda that the display is not the determining
factor but merely window dressing was quite correct. So it was the
display that malfunctioned, not the pay mechanism.

That's why there have been a number of cases where an apparent
jackpot was not paid because the internal meters showed that the
actual result was different than the displayed result. Often for PR
purposes casinos will pay these non-jackpots, anyway.

Ever have a casino give you pay for a Royal even though it didn't
show on the machine? Sticky button? The problem is that the Royal
wouldn't have come up if you'd held correctly. But even if the casino
personnel know this it would take too much to explain it to the
customer and the bad will wouldn't be worth it.

The only thing I took objection to is your definition of "fair".
Also, regulators in all industries have a dual responsibility to
protect the consumers and establish trust in the industry regulated.

Jeeps, for my own curiosity, do you automatically assume that utility
regulators, meat and building inspectors, the FAA, the FDA and other
regulators are all out to get the consumer and protect their
industries? If so, how do you have any faith in any product you buy?
And if not, why would gaming regulators be different from those in
other industries?

Just food for thought and discussion.

B

···

At 07:05 PM 9/10/2006, you wrote:

Gee, maybe you are a slot machine distributor. Let me change fixed to
a customer being deceived. It is reasonable for a player to think if
the wheel displays the stops in front of you then that's how many
stops there are. If you think about it, I never mentioned one thing
about the reels. You may or may not remember the problems Universal
slots had with their near miss reels. The customer was deceived. IGT
complained to gaming control accusing Universal of having machines
that were not random. Universal simply said the machines were random
and when a 'random' loser was picked then the reel stops were picked
from a 'random' pool rich in close calls. Universal had no intention
to deceive. Bottom line...Gaming control required Universal to re
program these slots. At that time in the 80s gaming control wanted
the machines to act more like electro-mechanical slots. Universal had
a lot of slots on the street. IGT wasn't the king of all slots then.
By the way, today slots all seem to do the near miss thing. Times
have changed and casino control allows the fox to eat any of the
chickens it wants to.

Yes there is nothing to indicate bonus wheel has an equal chance of
stopping at any number. That's the point; what you see you should
get. Otherwise it should be posted. If you read the post more
carefully you might notice I don't question randomness. However, you
mention there is no rules for vp in Jersey. You also mention
by "custom" no machine would be approved that wouldn't meet Nevada
rules. Now there is a rule with teeth, "custom".

I don't understand why you went off on this tangent attempting to
explain random; My last statement stated I believe vp random. I laugh
when folks say the law says slots have to be random. Slots are by
nature random. You understand, no slot manufacturer indicates number
of symbols on the reels. Therefore, random means nothing to player.
That was not even the subject. The question or statement was; if the
wheel is displayed it might be reasonable to expect a fair shake as
though it were a real live reel. As I think this over again, perhaps
fixed is the right term. If machine displays the whole wheel I expect
it to spin just like the wheel spins on tv. Only exception would be
if it's posted differently. It's just my opinion. I can't understand
why you can't even consider this is a reasonable expectation.

Why would I want to call gaming control? Probably their main job is
to back up casino when it wants to prosecute some slot cheat or bj
player that might be trying to get a glimpse of someone elses cards
from a reflection on another players glasses. The key word here
is "probably". You don't have to post how main job of control is to
look out for player. I would never trust someone else to tell me the
vp games are fair. As in the past and today I trust my records. I
rely on my win loss records to verify if the games are fair or
playing to my standards.

Please understand, this is friendly banter. It's just ideas and food
for thought.

Cheers....Jeep

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[whitejeeps]

Hey there Bill

You think it's ok to allow the wheel to stop at numbers that have no
relation to random on a real wheel. I believe if the wheel is
displayed in front of you it should stop like a real wheel. IGT
believes like you do. Gaming commission agrees with IGT. The court
has ruled. You win.

Even in mechanical days the number of symbols didn't produce the
exact number random stops. The machines were mechanically able to
stop the jackpot symbols less often than others. These stops were
adjustable by a mechanical sliding mechanism. Mapping them may not
have been much help, unless you mean counting the number of times
each symble stopped on pay line; then averaging them out. With random
pick of the reel stops in modern games a 4th grader might have a
problem mapping game.

Blind trust because someone has a title of regulator or enforcer is
not in my book. Perhaps I should have been a Ralph Nader type. He's
an old guy that was known in the old days as a consumer advocate. I
don't think he'll ever be president.

Cheers....Jeep

I agree, it's not personal. However, there is a flaw in your
argument. Most fourth-graders could easily map the reels of a slot
fairly quickly (it would be a little longer on a video slot but can
easily be done). By your logic, people should then think each

symbol

has an equal chance of hitting.

Most people know that slots are weighted so certain results come up
more often than if they were mechanical. And if they don't they
should since risking money with no research or information is

foolish

and I have no patience for fools.

Let's take some other bonus rounds. In many video slots when the
choices appear on the screen the values are set and which one you
choose "makes a difference". But many others pre-pick the bonus
amount and your choices are merely part of the display. Is the

latter "unfair"?

The person who told Linda that the display is not the determining
factor but merely window dressing was quite correct. So it was the
display that malfunctioned, not the pay mechanism.

That's why there have been a number of cases where an apparent
jackpot was not paid because the internal meters showed that the
actual result was different than the displayed result. Often for PR
purposes casinos will pay these non-jackpots, anyway.

Ever have a casino give you pay for a Royal even though it didn't
show on the machine? Sticky button? The problem is that the Royal
wouldn't have come up if you'd held correctly. But even if the

casino

personnel know this it would take too much to explain it to the
customer and the bad will wouldn't be worth it.

The only thing I took objection to is your definition of "fair".
Also, regulators in all industries have a dual responsibility to
protect the consumers and establish trust in the industry regulated.

Jeeps, for my own curiosity, do you automatically assume that

utility

regulators, meat and building inspectors, the FAA, the FDA and

other

regulators are all out to get the consumer and protect their
industries? If so, how do you have any faith in any product you

buy?

And if not, why would gaming regulators be different from those in
other industries?

Just food for thought and discussion.

B

>Gee, maybe you are a slot machine distributor. Let me change fixed

to

>a customer being deceived. It is reasonable for a player to think

if

>the wheel displays the stops in front of you then that's how many
>stops there are. If you think about it, I never mentioned one thing
>about the reels. You may or may not remember the problems Universal
>slots had with their near miss reels. The customer was deceived.

IGT

>complained to gaming control accusing Universal of having machines
>that were not random. Universal simply said the machines were

random

>and when a 'random' loser was picked then the reel stops were

picked

>from a 'random' pool rich in close calls. Universal had no

intention

>to deceive. Bottom line...Gaming control required Universal to re
>program these slots. At that time in the 80s gaming control wanted
>the machines to act more like electro-mechanical slots. Universal

had

>a lot of slots on the street. IGT wasn't the king of all slots

then.

>By the way, today slots all seem to do the near miss thing. Times
>have changed and casino control allows the fox to eat any of the
>chickens it wants to.
>
>Yes there is nothing to indicate bonus wheel has an equal chance of
>stopping at any number. That's the point; what you see you should
>get. Otherwise it should be posted. If you read the post more
>carefully you might notice I don't question randomness. However,

you

>mention there is no rules for vp in Jersey. You also mention
>by "custom" no machine would be approved that wouldn't meet Nevada
>rules. Now there is a rule with teeth, "custom".
>
>I don't understand why you went off on this tangent attempting to
>explain random; My last statement stated I believe vp random. I

laugh

>when folks say the law says slots have to be random. Slots are by
>nature random. You understand, no slot manufacturer indicates

number

>of symbols on the reels. Therefore, random means nothing to player.
>That was not even the subject. The question or statement was; if

the

>wheel is displayed it might be reasonable to expect a fair shake as
>though it were a real live reel. As I think this over again,

perhaps

>fixed is the right term. If machine displays the whole wheel I

expect

>it to spin just like the wheel spins on tv. Only exception would be
>if it's posted differently. It's just my opinion. I can't

understand

>why you can't even consider this is a reasonable expectation.
>
>Why would I want to call gaming control? Probably their main job

is

>to back up casino when it wants to prosecute some slot cheat or bj
>player that might be trying to get a glimpse of someone elses cards
>from a reflection on another players glasses. The key word here
>is "probably". You don't have to post how main job of control is

to

>look out for player. I would never trust someone else to tell me

the

>vp games are fair. As in the past and today I trust my records. I
>rely on my win loss records to verify if the games are fair or
>playing to my standards.
>
>Please understand, this is friendly banter. It's just ideas and

food

···

-- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, Bill Coleman <vphobby2@...> wrote:

At 07:05 PM 9/10/2006, you wrote:
>for thought.
>
>Cheers....Jeep

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[tomflush1]

Exactly which game was it Linda? Many of the new reel games have bonus multipliers, some not so obvious , which would make 25 * 8 = 200 a common hit ?

···

----- Original Message -----

But earlier this week finally had a good one. I was playing a $5 "wheel"
type of machine - you know, one of the ones with a bonus wheel. The Spin
symbol came up, and the number spun to 25 ($125 payout). But instead of paying
out, the beep beep beep continued too long and no 25 credits rang up on the
machine.

I figured the ball had gotten stuck or the machine had frozen up. I hit
the "service" button. Finally the beep beep beep stopped and the words "HP
200" showed up on the little screen where the payout credits usually showed.

I figured this was some sort of error message.

Along came an attendant. I said - "The machine is frozen, it didn't pay out
25" (coins)

The attendant said, "you won $1000."

I said "the machine is stuck, there is an error number showing in the
window."

She said "You won $1000."

I said, "I did?"

She proceeded to hand pay me $1000 and write it up (for her hand pay
records). [I finally realized HP 200 meant Hand Pay 200 coins.]

I knew she was wrong, but if she was going to pay me when the ball was
obviously at the 25, well okay.

(If it was stuck anywhere it was between 25 and 100 - not the 200 number for
$1000.)

She paid me and went away.

I played a little more - no more malfunctions.

A few minutes later the attendant came back and said "which jackpot did you
get?" Maybe something had clicked that it was wrong, perhaps?

"I don't know." I said (truthfully)

"It must have been the bonus" she said (meaning the wheel)

"I don't know." I said.

"Yes, the bonus." she said and walked away.

I played another minute and left because I had to meet people.

A few hours later I came back, machine empty. Sat and played for about 2
hours. No malfunctions, no problems.

Odd.

[Curtis_Rich]

There are 22 stops on the bonus wheel on the "Wheel of Fortune"
reel slot machines. Nothing on these slot machines implies each
of the 22 stops on the wheel have equal chances of landing.

There is a reason that this is allowed. Because....

If anyone playing "Wheel of Fortune" looks up at the wheel and
thinks that, when the hit the 'spin' button, they have a 1 in 22
chance of winning 1,000 coins, they are an idiot.

My comment is blunt. But, it's a fact.

···

On 9/10/06, whitejeeps <whitejeeps@yahoo.com> wrote:

Hey there Bill

You think it's ok to allow the wheel to stop at numbers that have no
relation to random on a real wheel. I believe if the wheel is
displayed in front of you it should stop like a real wheel. IGT
believes like you do. Gaming commission agrees with IGT. The court
has ruled. You win.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[whitejeeps]

Curtis

Without inciting a riot, what is the reason the wheel is allowed to
display 22 stops but not give a true spin? It's a physical wheel
attached to a slot machine. A wheel similar to a roulette wheel or
more like a Big Six Money Wheel. I guess most can't make connection
to my thought process. Of the 2 who posted it's; casino is right. To
remind you of my original post; I pointed out that the wheel was not
random; as in 1 in 22 stop with each spin. It was an addition to
another post; an extra fact. I have already posted the casino is
allowed to add extra stops to the 22 and do it within the random
computer program. I just don't think it's right in this situation.
It would be nice to hear someone comment mildly; "Hey there Jeep.
That's a different way to look at it." I don't even expect a 'maybe
your right'. I really don't think it's fair to say about people who
don't understand the extra stops; "they are an idiot. My comment is
blunt. But, it's a fact."

I really can't understand why so many here jump so quickly to defend
the casinos and manufacturers. If any of us is thought by others to
error in judgement, comenting on casino conduct, the thoughts should
be more liberal toward the player not the house. This is a group of
players. We shouldn't forget it. We should stick together. Let's not
be so quick to help the house.

Cheers.....Jeep
.
.

···

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "Curtis Rich" <LGTVegas@...> wrote:

There is a reason that this is allowed. Because....

If anyone playing "Wheel of Fortune" looks up at the wheel and
thinks that, when the hit the 'spin' button, they have a 1 in 22
chance of winning 1,000 coins, they are an idiot.

My comment is blunt. But, it's a fact.

[Bill_Coleman1]

One quick last thought. If the wheel gave an equal chance to each pay
either the base game would have to pay about 40% to support the $1000
top prize in the bonus or the top prize in the bonus would be about
$50. Then few people would play the game.

···

At 08:22 AM 9/11/2006, you wrote:

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "Curtis Rich" <LGTVegas@...> wrote:

> There is a reason that this is allowed. Because....
>
> If anyone playing "Wheel of Fortune" looks up at the wheel and
> thinks that, when the hit the 'spin' button, they have a 1 in 22
> chance of winning 1,000 coins, they are an idiot.
>
> My comment is blunt. But, it's a fact.

Curtis

Without inciting a riot, what is the reason the wheel is allowed to
display 22 stops but not give a true spin? It's a physical wheel
attached to a slot machine. A wheel similar to a roulette wheel or
more like a Big Six Money Wheel. I guess most can't make connection
to my thought process. Of the 2 who posted it's; casino is right. To
remind you of my original post; I pointed out that the wheel was not
random; as in 1 in 22 stop with each spin. It was an addition to
another post; an extra fact. I have already posted the casino is
allowed to add extra stops to the 22 and do it within the random
computer program. I just don't think it's right in this situation.
It would be nice to hear someone comment mildly; "Hey there Jeep.
That's a different way to look at it." I don't even expect a 'maybe
your right'. I really don't think it's fair to say about people who
don't understand the extra stops; "they are an idiot. My comment is
blunt. But, it's a fact."

I really can't understand why so many here jump so quickly to defend
the casinos and manufacturers. If any of us is thought by others to
error in judgement, comenting on casino conduct, the thoughts should
be more liberal toward the player not the house. This is a group of
players. We shouldn't forget it. We should stick together. Let's not
be so quick to help the house.

Cheers.....Jeep
.
.

vpFREE Links: http://members.cox.net/vpfree/Links.htm

Yahoo! Groups Links

    (Yahoo! ID required)

    mailto:vpFREE-fullfeatu…@…com

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[Curtis_Rich]

Jeep,

You have the right to think that a bonus wheel on a slot machine
should function the same as a roulette wheel or big six wheel.
I have the right to disagree.

You have a right to think that it is not right for a casino to be allowed
to add extra stops to the 22 (within the random computer program).
I have the right to disagree.

You said, "If any of us is thought by others to error in judgement,
comenting on casino conduct, the thoughts should be more
liberal toward the player not the house." I disagree. We should
not side with either the player or the house - just for the sake of
doing so. We should base our opinions on the facts, not
emotions.

You said, "....what is the reason the wheel is allowed to display
22 stops but not give a true spin?" Bill Coleman answered that
question better than I ever could.

I am not defending the casinos or manufacturers. I am just
saying that there is nothing remotely wrong, dishonest, or
deceptive by what this machine's bonus wheel is doing.

I think that the average casino visitor understands this is how
the bonus wheel works. Certainly, anyone who has played
this machine and won many bonus wheel 'spins' will know
something is up, since they never get the 1000 coin prize.

Cheers.....Curtis

···

On 9/11/06, whitejeeps <whitejeeps@yahoo.com> wrote:

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "Curtis Rich" <LGTVegas@...> wrote:

> There is a reason that this is allowed. Because....
>
> If anyone playing "Wheel of Fortune" looks up at the wheel and
> thinks that, when the hit the 'spin' button, they have a 1 in 22
> chance of winning 1,000 coins, they are an idiot.
>
> My comment is blunt. But, it's a fact.

Curtis

Without inciting a riot, what is the reason the wheel is allowed to
display 22 stops but not give a true spin? It's a physical wheel
attached to a slot machine. A wheel similar to a roulette wheel or
more like a Big Six Money Wheel. I guess most can't make connection
to my thought process. Of the 2 who posted it's; casino is right. To
remind you of my original post; I pointed out that the wheel was not
random; as in 1 in 22 stop with each spin. It was an addition to
another post; an extra fact. I have already posted the casino is
allowed to add extra stops to the 22 and do it within the random
computer program. I just don't think it's right in this situation.
It would be nice to hear someone comment mildly; "Hey there Jeep.
That's a different way to look at it." I don't even expect a 'maybe
your right'. I really don't think it's fair to say about people who
don't understand the extra stops; "they are an idiot. My comment is
blunt. But, it's a fact."

I really can't understand why so many here jump so quickly to defend
the casinos and manufacturers. If any of us is thought by others to
error in judgement, comenting on casino conduct, the thoughts should
be more liberal toward the player not the house. This is a group of
players. We shouldn't forget it. We should stick together. Let's not
be so quick to help the house.

Cheers.....Jeep

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[whitejeeps]

Good point and the exact reason slots are so popular today. In Wheels
case the whole pay schedule would have to be redone. Most here agree
the manufacturer can and should have great leeway in designing games.
Some think otherwise. If I were a gaming regulator you know where I
would stand.

What have I learned? First; the Wheel game is off of my list of
favorite games. Second; Untill Wheel game is redesigned I will not
play the game. Third; While waiting for the redesigned games to hit the
street I will play only Pacman and Asteroids at the arcade. Fourth;
Since these games are so old the arcade may not have either of these
games. I'll probably have to put in plan B; play my next favorite
arcade game. My next favorite game is the crane game or the "digger"
as we used to call it at the shore. If you see a guy next Sunday, in a
black Caddy, going west on AC expressway with a 100 little stuffed
animals in the back window.... that will be me.

Thanks all for the lively discussion.....

Cheers..Jeep

···

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, Bill Coleman <vphobby2@...> wrote:

One quick last thought. If the wheel gave an equal chance to each pay
either the base game would have to pay about 40% to support the $1000
top prize in the bonus or the top prize in the bonus would be about
$50. Then few people would play the game.

[Adams_Myth]

Not one to play reel slots, I had no idea that the Wheel is crooked.
That's putting it bluntly.

When you place a bet on the "The Wheel of Fortune, or Big Six Wheel",
the house as a comfortable edge, and it is clear for everybody to
see. The stops are clearly marked with the payouts, and every body
can see that there are 24 stops of $1, 15 with $2, ... and only one
each of the Casino/Joker which pay 45:1

Other than that, the expectation is that any of the stops is equally
likely. That the wheel is not loaded to stop at some stops more often
than at others.

When you are given a pair of dice, the assumption is that they are
fair. That the outcomes are as basic statistics tell us.

Fot whatever reason, if the casino wants to make some stops (lesser
paying ones) more likely to be hit, the least, the least they can do
is post that comment clearly for everybody to see and understand.

Otherwise, they might as well use a 39 card deck in video poker,
removing randomly one card of each denomination so you never get a
quad of anything. To keep the appearance of a fair deck, they can
keep changing the precise cards removed in each deal; that way you
will see all the Aces as you play, but never all of the four at the
same time.

Casinos are Regular businesses. Yeah, Right!

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "whitejeeps" <whitejeeps@...> wrote:

···

It would be nice to hear someone comment mildly; "Hey there Jeep.
That's a different way to look at it." I don't even expect 'maybe
your right'. I really don't think it's fair to say about people who
don't understand the extra stops; "they are an idiot. My comment is
blunt. But, it's a fact."

[whitejeeps]

Hi AM

Couldn't have said it better myself. There's only three of us that
agree. The casinos are a regular business if your in it. The problem
I have is I can't get in on the casino action. That's because ya
gotta have a zillion dollars to buy a casino. If I had a zillion I'd
probably not buy a casino anyway. You could catch me at the $100 vp.
Can't change spots on a dumb leopard ya know.

Jeep
.

Not one to play reel slots, I had no idea that the Wheel is

crooked.

That's putting it bluntly.

When you place a bet on the "The Wheel of Fortune, or Big Six

Wheel",

the house as a comfortable edge, and it is clear for everybody to
see. The stops are clearly marked with the payouts, and every body
can see that there are 24 stops of $1, 15 with $2, ... and only one
each of the Casino/Joker which pay 45:1

Other than that, the expectation is that any of the stops is

equally

likely. That the wheel is not loaded to stop at some stops more

often

than at others.

When you are given a pair of dice, the assumption is that they are
fair. That the outcomes are as basic statistics tell us.

Fot whatever reason, if the casino wants to make some stops (lesser
paying ones) more likely to be hit, the least, the least they can

do

is post that comment clearly for everybody to see and understand.

Otherwise, they might as well use a 39 card deck in video poker,
removing randomly one card of each denomination so you never get a
quad of anything. To keep the appearance of a fair deck, they can
keep changing the precise cards removed in each deal; that way you
will see all the Aces as you play, but never all of the four at the
same time.

Casinos are Regular businesses. Yeah, Right!

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "whitejeeps" <whitejeeps@> wrote:
> It would be nice to hear someone comment mildly; "Hey there Jeep.
> That's a different way to look at it." I don't even expect 'maybe
> your right'. I really don't think it's fair to say about people

who

> don't understand the extra stops; "they are an idiot. My comment

is

···

.--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "Adams Myth" <Adams_Myth@...> wrote:

> blunt. But, it's a fact."

[Eric1]

many Casinos are available for sale on the NYSE; LVS, BYD, HET, AZR, STN.

···

On 9/11/06, whitejeeps <whitejeeps@yahoo.com> wrote:

Hi AM

Couldn't have said it better myself. There's only three of us that
agree. The casinos are a regular business if your in it. The problem
I have is I can't get in on the casino action. That's because ya
gotta have a zillion dollars to buy a casino. If I had a zillion I'd
probably not buy a casino anyway. You could catch me at the $100 vp.
Can't change spots on a dumb leopard ya know.

Jeep
.
.--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "Adams Myth" <Adams_Myth@...> wrote:
>
> Not one to play reel slots, I had no idea that the Wheel is
crooked.
> That's putting it bluntly.
>
> When you place a bet on the "The Wheel of Fortune, or Big Six
Wheel",
> the house as a comfortable edge, and it is clear for everybody to
> see. The stops are clearly marked with the payouts, and every body
> can see that there are 24 stops of $1, 15 with $2, ... and only one
> each of the Casino/Joker which pay 45:1
>
> Other than that, the expectation is that any of the stops is
equally
> likely. That the wheel is not loaded to stop at some stops more
often
> than at others.
>
> When you are given a pair of dice, the assumption is that they are
> fair. That the outcomes are as basic statistics tell us.
>
> Fot whatever reason, if the casino wants to make some stops (lesser
> paying ones) more likely to be hit, the least, the least they can
do
> is post that comment clearly for everybody to see and understand.
>
> Otherwise, they might as well use a 39 card deck in video poker,
> removing randomly one card of each denomination so you never get a
> quad of anything. To keep the appearance of a fair deck, they can
> keep changing the precise cards removed in each deal; that way you
> will see all the Aces as you play, but never all of the four at the
> same time.
>
> Casinos are Regular businesses. Yeah, Right!
>
> --- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "whitejeeps" <whitejeeps@> wrote:
> > It would be nice to hear someone comment mildly; "Hey there Jeep.
> > That's a different way to look at it." I don't even expect 'maybe
> > your right'. I really don't think it's fair to say about people
who
> > don't understand the extra stops; "they are an idiot. My comment
is
> > blunt. But, it's a fact."
>

vpFREE Links: http://members.cox.net/vpfree/Links.htm

Yahoo! Groups Links

[timmer]

YEah but the problem is the Corporations CEO,s CFO, other EO's and
board members continually looting them for their own gain.

EO salary or benefit increases in excess of $1,000,000 USD should
be approved only by majority vote of the shareholders.

many Casinos are available for sale on the NYSE; LVS, BYD, HET,

AZR, STN.

> Hi AM
>
> Couldn't have said it better myself. There's only three of us

that

> agree. The casinos are a regular business if your in it. The

problem

> I have is I can't get in on the casino action. That's because ya
> gotta have a zillion dollars to buy a casino. If I had a zillion

I'd

> probably not buy a casino anyway. You could catch me at the $100

vp.

> Can't change spots on a dumb leopard ya know.
>
> Jeep
> .
> >
> > Not one to play reel slots, I had no idea that the Wheel is
> crooked.
> > That's putting it bluntly.
> >
> > When you place a bet on the "The Wheel of Fortune, or Big Six
> Wheel",
> > the house as a comfortable edge, and it is clear for everybody

to

> > see. The stops are clearly marked with the payouts, and every

body

> > can see that there are 24 stops of $1, 15 with $2, ... and

only one

> > each of the Casino/Joker which pay 45:1
> >
> > Other than that, the expectation is that any of the stops is
> equally
> > likely. That the wheel is not loaded to stop at some stops more
> often
> > than at others.
> >
> > When you are given a pair of dice, the assumption is that they

are

> > fair. That the outcomes are as basic statistics tell us.
> >
> > Fot whatever reason, if the casino wants to make some stops

(lesser

> > paying ones) more likely to be hit, the least, the least they

can

> do
> > is post that comment clearly for everybody to see and

understand.

> >
> > Otherwise, they might as well use a 39 card deck in video

poker,

> > removing randomly one card of each denomination so you never

get a

> > quad of anything. To keep the appearance of a fair deck, they

can

> > keep changing the precise cards removed in each deal; that way

you

> > will see all the Aces as you play, but never all of the four

at the

> > same time.
> >
> > Casinos are Regular businesses. Yeah, Right!
> >
> > --- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "whitejeeps" <whitejeeps@>

wrote:

> > > It would be nice to hear someone comment mildly; "Hey there

Jeep.

> > > That's a different way to look at it." I don't even

expect 'maybe

> > > your right'. I really don't think it's fair to say about

people

> who
> > > don't understand the extra stops; "they are an idiot. My

comment

···

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, Eric <oddsworking@...> wrote:

On 9/11/06, whitejeeps <whitejeeps@...> wrote:
> .--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "Adams Myth" <Adams_Myth@> wrote:
> is
> > > blunt. But, it's a fact."
> >
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> vpFREE Links: http://members.cox.net/vpfree/Links.htm
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

[Eric1]

I'm not advocating buying any of those, just stating they are available.

The only one I am familiar with, the CEO is the majority sharelholder.

···

On 9/12/06, timmer <timmr21@yahoo.com> wrote:

YEah but the problem is the Corporations CEO,s CFO, other EO's and
board members continually looting them for their own gain.

EO salary or benefit increases in excess of $1,000,000 USD should
be approved only by majority vote of the shareholders.

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, Eric <oddsworking@...> wrote:
>
> many Casinos are available for sale on the NYSE; LVS, BYD, HET,
AZR, STN.
>
> On 9/11/06, whitejeeps <whitejeeps@...> wrote:
> > Hi AM
> >