<a href="http://tinyurl.com/42kry">
http://tinyurl.com/42kry</a>
LVSun - Sophisticated gangs cheating slot machines across country
Headlines can sure be misleading.
"across the country"? That implies some sort of mass wave of
criminal masterminds assaulting the innocent slot machines and
depriving casinos of their hard-earned cash to the tune of
bazillions of dollars every day.
If you read the article, they've only made six arrests---all in
Tunica. Since they mention the machines being used "across the
country". I would assume they have suspicions, but no actual proof
of such.
Apparently these people, who work in teams of two or more, stop at a
take of about $5-7K a night so as not to arouse suspicion. This
amount is what Bellagio, Harrah's et al make approximately every
four seconds. Don't weep for the poor casinos; this is a case of the
cheaters being cheated right back. In order to compensate, they'll
just have to reduce the payouts a little more, and maybe bring in a
couple of extra buses of LOLs on the weekend.
Of course, Las Vegas doesn't have to worry about the intrusion of
these cheating teams; the casinos here have a way of arresting,
indicting, convicting, punishing, and sometimes burying people
caught cheating, all before the police ever arrive. The guys from
Tulsa know it's safer to play in the minor leagues.
···
--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "vpFREE" <vpFREE@C...> wrote:
<a href="http://tinyurl.com/42kry">
http://tinyurl.com/42kry</a>
$6000 in 4 seconds is a lot more money than even the richest casinos average in that time, even Foxwoods. $6000 in 4 seconds = $90,000 minute = $5,400,000 /hour = $129,600,000/day. Even Fixwoods doesn't clear that much. The casinos that have lousy payouts on slots do not cheat us. As long as they abide by Gaming Borad regulations it is up to us to play or not play them. Now there are things that casinos do that are unjust and unfair, and sometimes of quasi-legality (such as advertising single deck but not putting in the Ad that is isn't regular blackjack but is 6/5 blackjack)but as to the slots, as long as the chip pays back at least 75%, is random per regualtions, we are not being cheated. Of course, i do not advocate playing these type of one arm bandits, but the offerring of these machines by the casinos to the public is not the same thing as someone deliberately stealing from them.. theft against any one, business or personal, is wrong and should be dealth with!
···
From: "rockofjello333" <rockofjello333@yahoo.com>
Reply-To: vpFREE@yahoogroups.com
To: vpFREE@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [vpFREE] Re: LVSun - Sophisticated gangs cheating slot machines across country
Date: Sat, 27 Nov 2004 02:22:28 -0000--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "vpFREE" <vpFREE@C...> wrote:
>
> http://tinyurl.com/42kry
>
> <a href="http://tinyurl.com/42kry">
> http://tinyurl.com/42kry</a>Headlines can sure be misleading.
"across the country"? That implies some sort of mass wave of
criminal masterminds assaulting the innocent slot machines and
depriving casinos of their hard-earned cash to the tune of
bazillions of dollars every day.If you read the article, they've only made six arrests---all in
Tunica. Since they mention the machines being used "across the
country". I would assume they have suspicions, but no actual proof
of such.Apparently these people, who work in teams of two or more, stop at a
take of about $5-7K a night so as not to arouse suspicion. This
amount is what Bellagio, Harrah's et al make approximately every
four seconds. Don't weep for the poor casinos; this is a case of the
cheaters being cheated right back. In order to compensate, they'll
just have to reduce the payouts a little more, and maybe bring in a
couple of extra buses of LOLs on the weekend.Of course, Las Vegas doesn't have to worry about the intrusion of
these cheating teams; the casinos here have a way of arresting,
indicting, convicting, punishing, and sometimes burying people
caught cheating, all before the police ever arrive. The guys from
Tulsa know it's safer to play in the minor leagues.
--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "pesach kremen" <royalflush2222@h...>
wrote:
$6000 in 4 seconds is a lot more money than even the richest
casinos average
···
in that time, even Foxwoods. $6000 in 4 seconds = $90,000 minute
=
$5,400,000 /hour = $129,600,000/day. Even Fixwoods doesn't clear
that much.
The casinos that have lousy payouts on slots do not cheat us.
As long as
they abide by Gaming Borad regulations it is up to us to play or
not play
them. Now there are things that casinos do that are unjust and
unfair, and
sometimes of quasi-legality (such as advertising single deck but
not putting
in the Ad that is isn't regular blackjack but is 6/5 blackjack)but
as to the
slots, as long as the chip pays back at least 75%, is random per
regualtions, we are not being cheated. Of course, i do not
advocate playing
these type of one arm bandits, but the offerring of these machines
by the
casinos to the public is not the same thing as someone
deliberately stealing
from them.. theft against any one, business or personal, is wrong
and should
be dealth with!
I stand by my opinion, that the casinos DO cheat every day, by
fraud, misrepresentation, deception, and other mechanisms as well as
the classic variety of cheating.
As far as reel slots go (the kind the gangs are robbing), there was
a large brouhaha about many varieties of IGT slots REARRANGING the
appearance of a losing spin so as to give the player the illusion
of "almost" having won, instead of blank,7,7, the result would be
rearranged to show 7,7,blank. The Nevada (note: NEVADA) courts ruled
that this wasn't cheating per se since the outcome (a loss) was not
altered by this action. What a joke.
It's cheating to keep track of the cards at blackjack and shuffle
when the deck gets good for the player, and continue dealing when
the deck is bad. They're doing that right now in several casinos,
with the new "card tracking" technology.
I've been cheated at blackjack, craps, and even pai gow poker. It
didn't take any genius to see the cheating moves. In fact, my
stunned looks were greeted with a smirk, as though daring me to do
anything about it. For instance, one time at the crap table, with
thousands riding on the next roll, the shooter made his point of
eight...but only the stickman and three of us at one end of the
table could see it because the dice had rolled behind a stack of
chips...the stickman screamed "SEVEN OUT" and HIT the dice with his
stick, and every bet on the table was swooped up...the three of us
were soon thrown out, still screaming....
I've seen more garbage, and had more done to me, than you can
possibly imagine. These are evil thieves without a shred of scruples
or decency. That's why I'm more suspicious of malperforming VP
machines than most people, and why I don't feel sorry for the poor
helpless casinos when someone steals 0.0000000000001% of their
profits.
Hey, all the casino's in Atlantic City BRAG about their 6-to-5 single deck blackjack table's. Its on all the billboard's leading into town.
Their are lot's of people playing them, too.
Ned C.
The Wild Joker
···
pesach kremen <royalflush2222@hotmail.com> wrote:
Now there are things that casinos do that are unjust and unfair, and
sometimes of quasi-legality (such as advertising single deck but not putting
in the Ad that is isn't regular blackjack but is 6/5 blackjack)
---------------------------------
Do you Yahoo!?
The all-new My Yahoo! – What will yours do?
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Your misinformation is beyond belief, Kevin. This behavior is absolutely
prohibited under Nevada regulations. You can verify your misinformation
before posting it by phoning Gaming Control and asking. They are always
good about explaining the regs and answering such questions.
Ignorance is bliss.
···
At 01:37 AM 11/27/2004, you wrote:
As far as reel slots go (the kind the gangs are robbing), there was
a large brouhaha about many varieties of IGT slots REARRANGING the
appearance of a losing spin so as to give the player the illusion
of "almost" having won, instead of blank,7,7, the result would be
rearranged to show 7,7,blank. The Nevada (note: NEVADA) courts ruled
that this wasn't cheating per se since the outcome (a loss) was not
altered by this action. What a joke.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Your misinformation is beyond belief, Kevin. This behavior is
absolutely
prohibited under Nevada regulations. You can verify your
misinformation
before posting it by phoning Gaming Control and asking. They are
always
good about explaining the regs and answering such questions.
Ignorance is bliss.
Bill,
I read about this incident in the Las Vegas Review-Journal, the Las
vegas Sun, the New York Times, Card Player magazine, and from the
message board of a Goodyear blimp flying over my house. (Ok, maybe
not that.) Each medium had multiple articles spanning a period of
several weeks as the story unfolded. No, I don't remember exactly
when it was, though I think it was in 1995-96.
This behavior is actually NOT prohibited under Nevada regulations,
although it took a trip to the Nevada Supreme Court to establish
this. The key is that to alter the PRESENTATION of a randomly
generated result is NOT cheating, since the outcome remains
unaffected.
I talked to Gaming three times while this occured. They told me that
the decision had passed out of their hands and was now under the
aegis of the Navada court system.
I guess all these news media, Gaming, and the Nevada court system
were as "ignorant" as I am.
Before insulting me, and basically calling me a liar, you might have
checked the archives of the LVRJ, if you have access to them, and
searched for the story. If you do not have the ability to do so,
then precisely how the f*** do you presume to refute
MY "misinformation"? I've BEEN here; you HAVEN'T.
>As far as reel slots go (the kind the gangs are robbing), there
was
>a large brouhaha about many varieties of IGT slots REARRANGING the
>appearance of a losing spin so as to give the player the illusion
>of "almost" having won, instead of blank,7,7, the result would be
>rearranged to show 7,7,blank. The Nevada (note: NEVADA) courts
ruled
>that this wasn't cheating per se since the outcome (a loss) was
not
···
--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, Bill Coleman <vphobby@c...> wrote:
At 01:37 AM 11/27/2004, you wrote:
>altered by this action. What a joke.[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
I remember reading about the "near miss" case several years ago in ACG.
Pretty interesting stuff.
http://www.americancasinoguide.com/Tips/Slots-Honest.shtml
http://www.reviewjournal.com/lvrj_home/1997/May-12-Mon-1997/business/5356661
.html
I suppose it would be possible to design a slot machine with stops that were
entirely random yet maximized near misses? I believe Wynn is now in
partnership with the owner of Universal Distributing.
···
_____
From: rockofjello333 [mailto:rockofjello…@…com]
Sent: Saturday, November 27, 2004 1:32 PM
To: vpFREE@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [vpFREE] Re: LVSun - Sophisticated gangs cheating slot machines
across country
--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, Bill Coleman <vphobby@c...> wrote:
Your misinformation is beyond belief, Kevin. This behavior is
absolutely
prohibited under Nevada regulations. You can verify your
misinformation
before posting it by phoning Gaming Control and asking. They are
always
good about explaining the regs and answering such questions.
Ignorance is bliss.
Bill,
I read about this incident in the Las Vegas Review-Journal, the Las
vegas Sun, the New York Times, Card Player magazine, and from the
message board of a Goodyear blimp flying over my house. (Ok, maybe
not that.) Each medium had multiple articles spanning a period of
several weeks as the story unfolded. No, I don't remember exactly
when it was, though I think it was in 1995-96.
This behavior is actually NOT prohibited under Nevada regulations,
although it took a trip to the Nevada Supreme Court to establish
this. The key is that to alter the PRESENTATION of a randomly
generated result is NOT cheating, since the outcome remains
unaffected.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Kevin,
I will not engage in name-calling, nor did I call you a liar. I said you
posted misinformation, as you frequently do. I have no doubt that you
believe most of this crap.
The activity in question is prohibited under the following regulation:
5.011 The board and the commission deem any activity on
the part of any licensee, his agents or employees, that is inimical to the
public health, safety,
morals, good order and general welfare of the people of the State of
Nevada, or that would reflect
or tend to reflect discredit upon the State of Nevada or the gaming
industry, to be an unsuitable
method of operation and shall be grounds for disciplinary action by the
board and the commission
in accordance with the Nevada Gaming Control Act and the regulations of the
board and the
commission.
As I've posted before, this is absolutely brilliant because it prohibits
all forms of misrepresentation or cheating by casino operators without
having to specifically list or imagine each and every method that might be
used.
In doing research on this very issue (making non-winning combinations
artificially show near-misses the above regulation was cited to me by a
senior member of Enforcement.
Instead of personal attacks and shrill, meaningless citations of newspapers
(real and imagined) please post a link to the particular case you cite
(primary evidence) or, if you are unable to support your position with
primary evidence please provide the date and quote a specific article from
a reputable newspaper which mentions this (secondary evidence). If you are
unable to provide support for your position, I expect an apology for the
pejorative used.
By the way, regardless of current usage, being ignorant of a particular
fact or group of facts is an objective state. If one is ignorant in a
particular area (and we all are about some things) and expounds on this
thus sharing the fact of his ignorance with the world it is not a personal
attack to point out this ignorance but an educational tool.
B
Bill,
I read about this incident in the Las Vegas Review-Journal, the Las
vegas Sun, the New York Times, Card Player magazine, and from the
message board of a Goodyear blimp flying over my house. (Ok, maybe
not that.) Each medium had multiple articles spanning a period of
several weeks as the story unfolded. No, I don't remember exactly
when it was, though I think it was in 1995-96.
This behavior is actually NOT prohibited under Nevada regulations,
although it took a trip to the Nevada Supreme Court to establish
this. The key is that to alter the PRESENTATION of a randomly
generated result is NOT cheating, since the outcome remains
unaffected.
I talked to Gaming three times while this occured. They told me that
the decision had passed out of their hands and was now under the
aegis of the Navada court system.
I guess all these news media, Gaming, and the Nevada court system
were as "ignorant" as I am.
Before insulting me, and basically calling me a liar, you might have
checked the archives of the LVRJ, if you have access to them, and
searched for the story. If you do not have the ability to do so,
then precisely how the f*** do you presume to refute
MY "misinformation"? I've BEEN here; you HAVEN'T.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Kevin,
I will not engage in name-calling, nor did I call you a liar. I
said you
posted misinformation, as you frequently do. I have no doubt that
you
believe most of this crap.
I objected to the sarcastic tone. I objected to the snide "ignorance
is bliss" remark. You could have said that you didn't believe that
what I said is true in many other, more civil ways than the one you
chose. Furthermore, you were just plain flat wrong in your
accusation: I wasn't going to bother to search the archives of the
Vegas papers just to prove to YOU that what I said was true, but
siomeone else did it for me. See the post on this subject with a
link to the 1997 LVRJ article.
BTW I do NOT "frequently post misinformation". I frequently post
things that you disagree with. Those, I regret to point out to you,
are TWO DIFFERENT THINGS. NO ONE "frequently posts misinformation"--
even you. "Often posts viewpoints people disagree with", yes;
there's a distinction.
I realize you have a strong disinclination to believe some of the
things I say, and that you have a touching and naive faith in the
goodness and honesty of the casinos; so when I suggest that things
may not be on the up-and-up, you overreact. My set of experiences
varies dramatically from yours. My viewpoints are based on these
experiences.
I feel considerably insulted when someone tells me that what I have
seen, I didn't see, what I read, I didn't read, and what I did, I
didn't actually do. I believe you were out of line, not to greet
what I said with skepticism--that's your holy right, which you
frequently exercise--but in your manner and tone. To call
someone "ignorant" and to call what they believe "crap" oversteps
the bounds of civil discourse. I believe you owe me an apology, and
you would still owe me that apology even if every single thing I
said proved to be untrue.
Besides, I know far, far, far, far more than you do about the casino
business and environment, having lived and worked in it for the
better part of twenty years.
···
--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, Bill Coleman <vphobby@c...> wrote:
Besides, I know far, far, far, far more than you do about the casino business< Gee.... if you added only one more far your statement would be far more convincing. Has this gone on far enough? Russ H.
Kevin,
I will not engage in name-calling, nor did I call you a liar. I
said you
posted misinformation, as you frequently do. I have no doubt that
you
believe most of this crap.
I objected to the sarcastic tone. I objected to the snide "ignorance
is bliss" remark. You could have said that you didn't believe that
what I said is true in many other, more civil ways than the one you
chose. Furthermore, you were just plain flat wrong in your
accusation: I wasn't going to bother to search the archives of the
Vegas papers just to prove to YOU that what I said was true, but
siomeone else did it for me. See the post on this subject with a
link to the 1997 LVRJ article.
BTW I do NOT "frequently post misinformation". I frequently post
things that you disagree with. Those, I regret to point out to you,
are TWO DIFFERENT THINGS. NO ONE "frequently posts misinformation"--
even you. "Often posts viewpoints people disagree with", yes;
there's a distinction.
I realize you have a strong disinclination to believe some of the
things I say, and that you have a touching and naive faith in the
goodness and honesty of the casinos; so when I suggest that things
may not be on the up-and-up, you overreact. My set of experiences
varies dramatically from yours. My viewpoints are based on these
experiences.
I feel considerably insulted when someone tells me that what I have
seen, I didn't see, what I read, I didn't read, and what I did, I
didn't actually do. I believe you were out of line, not to greet
what I said with skepticism--that's your holy right, which you
frequently exercise--but in your manner and tone. To call
someone "ignorant" and to call what they believe "crap" oversteps
the bounds of civil discourse. I believe you owe me an apology, and
you would still owe me that apology even if every single thing I
said proved to be untrue.
Besides, I know far, far, far, far more than you do about the casino
business and environment, having lived and worked in it for the
better part of twenty years.
vpFREE Links: http://members.cox.net/vpfree/Links.htm
Yahoo! Groups SponsorADVERTISEMENT
···
rockofjello333 <rockofjello333@yahoo.com> wrote:
--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, Bill Coleman <vphobby@c...> wrote:
---------------------------------
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, Russell Hunsberger
<russellhunsberger@y...> wrote:
>Besides, I know far, far, far, far more than you do about the
casino business< Gee.... if you added only one more far
your statement would be far more convincing. Has this gone on far
enough? Russ H.
It probably has gone far enough, although if I felt like it,
I "could write a book" about the things I've seen (and had done to
me). Keep in mind that it's only comparatively recently that casino
management began to resemble the upper-level workings of any other
large corporaation; before that, those jobs were held by low-level
gangsters and petty thugs whose "gaming" background stretched back
into illegal gambling in the 40s, 50s, and 60s---when NO ONE ever
won. Promotions were based on connections and not merit. It was sort
of like an airline where the guy flying the airplane is doing so not
because he knows how to fly, but because he beat up the previous
pilot.