vpFREE2 Forums

LVA Question of the Day - 9 FEB 2009

#1

Q: How bad is it to play less than max coins on a video poker
game? Sometimes I don´t want to play $1.25 a hand (maybe because
I don´t want to lose too much that day). Is it really a sin to
play $1 or 75¢ or even just a quarter per play?

Read the answer here:

http://www.lasvegasadvisor.com/qod.cfm

<a href="http://www.lasvegasadvisor.com/qod.cfm">
http://www.lasvegasadvisor.com/qod.cfm</a>

NOTE: vpFREE access to the Question of the Day link has been
approved by LVA and expires after the current day for non-LVA
members.

···

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#2

Gaming Today just had an old Lenny Fromme column on this exact thing.
Sometimes when you're short, you have to build yourself up, and then
play maximum coins in.

#3

That's a very interesting conclusion in the LVA QOD. I would have never
thought that it should be one or the other, nothing in between
D

···

On Mon, Feb 9, 2009 at 9:49 AM, Robert Levine <stuckinvegas@yahoo.com>wrote:

  Gaming Today just had an old Lenny Fromme column on this exact thing.
Sometimes when you're short, you have to build yourself up, and then
play maximum coins in.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

#4

I have just lost a little respect for Anthony Curtis
and his QOD.

From their response today:
".....playing 5 coins on a 9/6 machine, the equation
is -.005 x .25 x 5 = -.00625 —- a loss of a little more
than half a penny per hand."
~and~
"....This calculation yields loss-per-hand numbers of
approximately....0.5¢ for playing just one coin."

So....

They are saying that you can bet $1.25 per hand with
an expected loss of (approx.) 0.6¢ per hand (and a
shot at a $1,000 jackpot) ~or~ you can bet $0.25 per
hand with the SAME expected loss of 0.5¢ per hand
(and a shot at a $62.50 jackpot).

They go on to say, "....when playing a 5-coin game,
you should play either 1 coin or 5."

I disagree.

If I'm going to lose a half a penny on every hand
(by betting either 1 coin or 5), I want a shot at a
$1,000 jackpot....not a $62.50 jackpot! :slight_smile:

Curtis

PS If I am missing something, I respectfully request
that someone tell me what it is.

···

On Mon, Feb 9, 2009 at 7:52 AM, vpFae <vpFae@cox.net> wrote:

Q: How bad is it to play less than max coins on a video poker
game? Sometimes I don´t want to play $1.25 a hand (maybe because
I don´t want to lose too much that day). Is it really a sin to
play $1 or 75¢ or even just a quarter per play?

Read the answer here:

http://www.lasvegasadvisor.com/qod.cfm

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

#5

I thnk you need to re-read the answer.

The question is not whether you should play five coins or one but rather how many coins you should play if you do not want to play five coins but are willing to play somewhere between one and four coins.

Yes, you should play five coins but if you don't have the funds for five-coins then one coin is better than two, three or four.

http://windowslive.com/howitworks?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_t1_allup_howitworks_022009

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

#6

Do you know who Anthony Curtis is?

···

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, Curtis Rich <LGTVegas@...> wrote:

I have just lost a little respect for Anthony Curtis
and his QOD. ...
I disagree. ...
PS If I am missing something, I respectfully request
that someone tell me what it is.

#7

I think you need to re-read the question.

They asked, "How bad is it to play less than max coins on a video poker
game?" and "Is it really a sin to play $1 or 75¢ or even just a quarter per
play?"

The question was asking about the ramifications of playing fewer than five
coins. They did not ask how many coins one should play, if they don't want
to play five coins.

QOD answered, "....when playing a 5-coin game, you should play either 1 coin
or 5, and under no circumstances should you play anything in between."

My reply was that you should only play five coins. Period. For
approximately the same cost, you have a shot at a $1,000 win (when playing 5
coins) vs. only $62.50 (when playing one coin). Seems like a no-brainer to
me, but I'm not a published author like Anthony Curtis or Bob Dancer.
Maybe, they know something that I don't.

Personally, I "don't have the funds for five-coins," I won't play fewer
coins. I will play something else.

Curtis

···

On Mon, Feb 9, 2009 at 11:15 AM, kelso 1600 <kelso1600@hotmail.com> wrote:

I thnk you need to re-read the answer.

The question is not whether you should play five coins or one but rather
how many coins you should play if you do not want to play five coins but are
willing to play somewhere between one and four coins.

Yes, you should play five coins but if you don't have the funds for
five-coins then one coin is better than two, three or four.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

#8

Of course I know who he his. I met him once - at the grand opening
of the Venetian poker room. He was a participant in the tournament
and I was a guest. He was VERY pleasant.

Why?

···

On Mon, Feb 9, 2009 at 1:03 PM, nightoftheiguana2000 < nightoftheiguana2000@yahoo.com> wrote:

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, Curtis Rich <LGTVegas@...> wrote:
> I have just lost a little respect for Anthony Curtis and his QOD. ...
> I disagree. ...
> PS If I am missing something, I respectfully request
> that someone tell me what it is.

Do you know who Anthony Curtis is?

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

#9

Always dangerous to venture into these waters with so many experts but
will give it a try.

I believe the answer was aimed at those who play primarily for
recreation, a negative expectation game and of course not playing for
comps.

Lets assume 400 hand an hour, just to make the math simple. 9/6 with 5
coins returns 99.54 with perfect play and with 1-4 coins 98.37. Once
again making the math simple we will say you give up .5 with 5 coins.
At 400 hundred hands X 1.25 is $500 an hour which means you give up
$2.50 an hour.

400 X .25 is $100 and time 1.6 you give up (actually a bit more of
course but keeping the math simple) $1.60.

As a recreational player you are giving up and average of .90 less with
one coin then five. But note, if you go up to 2 coins you give up
$3.20, more than at five!

So you lose less with 1 coin then with 5. However with 2-4 you are
smarter to play 5 coin. I believe that is what was behind the answer
which was poorly explained.

Marc

···

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, Curtis Rich <LGTVegas@...> wrote:

Curtis

PS If I am missing something, I respectfully request
that someone tell me what it is.

#10

You should consider that possibility. Have you appeared in the UBT
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_phfrRblbhY
or won millions playing video poker?
http://www.bobdancer.com/

···

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, Curtis Rich <LGTVegas@...> wrote:

Seems like a no-brainer to
me, but I'm not a published author like Anthony Curtis or Bob Dancer.
Maybe, they know something that I don't.

#11

Not one person (including nightoftheiguana2000) has posted
in this forum any reason why my contention is wrong:
If I am going to give up approximately the same amount of money
[$0.005] per hand, whether betting one coin or five coins per hand,
it is better to have a chance at winning a $1,000.00 royal flush
[by betting five coins] vs. winning a $62.50 royal flush [by playing
one coin].

If someone knows something that I don't, they have yet to post it.

I'm still open-minded, though. And, I look forward to hearing
nightoftheiguana2000 (or anyone else) explain to me why I am
wrong. And, please do not tell me that I am wrong, just because
someone else posted it on their website - like, LVA. LVA is not
always correct. No one is.

Curtis

···

On Mon, Feb 9, 2009 at 1:19 PM, nightoftheiguana2000 < nightoftheiguana2000@yahoo.com> wrote:

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, Curtis Rich <LGTVegas@...> wrote:
> Seems like a no-brainer to me, but I'm not a
> published author like Anthony Curtis or Bob Dancer.
> Maybe, they know something that I don't.

You should consider that possibility. Have you appeared in the UBT
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_phfrRblbhY
or won millions playing video poker?
http://www.bobdancer.com/

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

#12

Always dangerous to venture into these waters with so many experts

but

will give it a try.

I believe the answer was aimed at those who play primarily for
recreation, a negative expectation game and of course not playing

for

comps.

Lets assume 400 hand an hour, just to make the math simple. 9/6

with 5

coins returns 99.54 with perfect play and with 1-4 coins 98.37.

Once

again making the math simple we will say you give up .5 with 5

coins.

At 400 hundred hands X 1.25 is $500 an hour which means you give up
$2.50 an hour.

400 X .25 is $100 and time 1.6 you give up (actually a bit more of
course but keeping the math simple) $1.60.

As a recreational player you are giving up and average of .90 less

with

one coin then five. But note, if you go up to 2 coins you give up
$3.20, more than at five!

So you lose less with 1 coin then with 5. However with 2-4 you are
smarter to play 5 coin. I believe that is what was behind the

answer

which was poorly explained.

Marc

> Curtis
>
> PS If I am missing something, I respectfully request
> that someone tell me what it is.
>

In addition, If you are going to lose the same amount (actually
slightly more) on average, but have a chance at a $1000 jackpot, that
means by default that you will lose far more on average playing 5
coins in those sessions where you don't hit a royal flush, then you
will playing 1 coin.

For example, using the numbers above, let's assume that over 400
hands, you have a 1% chance of hitting a royal flush. That means
that playing 5 coins, in the 99% of sessions that you don't hit a
royal, your expected loss is $2.50 + (1%)($1000) = $12.50.
On the other hand, if you play 1 coin, your expected loss would be
$1.90 + (1%)(62.5) = $2.53.

That makes sense, since if you don't end up hitting the royal, you
are just playing a 97.5% game with the same paytable, losing 5x as
much.

So, if the person asking the question has the goal of playing .25
video poker and not run out of money, you can justify playing 1 coin,
but not 2-4.

···

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "marc33594" <marc33594@...> wrote:

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, Curtis Rich <LGTVegas@> wrote:

#13

I detect a problem right there, do you see it? The hold on the one
coin would have to be five times the hold on the five coin to have the
same long term average cost. What game are we talking? Surely not 9=6
jacks or double double bonus?

···

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, Curtis Rich <LGTVegas@...> wrote:

If I am going to give up approximately the same amount of money
[$0.005] per hand, whether betting one coin or five coins per hand,

#14

FWIW, I believe the maxEV return on 800 9-6 jacks is about .995, the
maxEV return on 250 9-6 jacks is about .988 .

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "nightoftheiguana2000"
<nightoftheiguana2000@...> wrote:

···

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, Curtis Rich <LGTVegas@> wrote:
> If I am going to give up approximately the same amount of money
> [$0.005] per hand, whether betting one coin or five coins per hand,

I detect a problem right there, do you see it? The hold on the one
coin would have to be five times the hold on the five coin to have the
same long term average cost. What game are we talking? Surely not 9=6
jacks or double double bonus?

#15

According to the QOD article, the game is 9/6 JOB at 25¢ level.

According to the QOD, the expected loss per hand is the casino
advantage x the coin denomination x the number of coins played.
Playing 5 coins, the equation is -.005 x .25 x 5 = -.00625, which
(QOD said) is "a loss of a little more than half a penny per hand."

According to the QOD, the same calculation for short-coin play is
the same, but changing the number of coins and the casino edge
(from 99.54% to 98.1%). [I'm not sure where they got the 98.1%.]
According to the QOD, this calculation "....yields loss-per-hand
numbers of approximately 2¢ when playing four coins, 1.5¢ for three
coins, 1¢ for two coins, and .5¢ for playing just one coin."

.019 x .25 x 1 = .00475, which is a loss of a little less than half
a penny per hand.

According to the QOD article, it is an expected loss of 0.00625¢
(per hand) when playing five coins and an expected loss of
0.00475¢ (per hand) when playing one coin.

In my original post, I said:
"If I'm going to lose a half a penny on every hand (by betting either
1 coin or 5), I want a shot at a $1,000 jackpot....not a $62.50 jackpot!"

The difference between an expected loss of 0.00625¢ (per hand)
and an expected loss of 0.00475¢ (per hand) is 0.0015¢. After
1000 hands, that's an additional loss of 15¢ if I play five coins vs.
one coin! I stand behind my original statement!

However, in actuality, most of us (in this Group) are not playing
video poker without receiving comps, cash-back, promotional
offers, and other things which boost the EV and make our play
over 100%. So, discussing playing a negative-expectation game
in this Group is almost a moot point.

For fun, I present the following estimates of hourly losses,
assuming no comps, cash-back, or anything else deducted from
the house edge.

Playing 25¢ 9/6 JOB 500 hands per hour:
Playing five coins (99.54%), the estimated hourly loss is $2.88.
Playing one coin (98.37%), the estimated hourly loss is $2.04.

Playing 5¢ 9/6 JOB 500 hands per hour:
Playing five coins, the estimated hourly loss is $0.58.
Playing one coin, the estimated hourly loss is $0.41.

I still think that the small amount of additional expected loss
(by playing five coins) is easily made up for the 'joy and
excitement' of getting a $1,000.00 jackpot vs. getting only
$62.50.

Curtis

···

On Mon, Feb 9, 2009 at 3:14 PM, nightoftheiguana2000 < nightoftheiguana2000@yahoo.com> wrote:

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, Curtis Rich <LGTVegas@...> wrote:
> If I am going to give up approximately the same amount of money
> [$0.005] per hand, whether betting one coin or five coins per hand,

I detect a problem right there, do you see it? The hold on the one
coin would have to be five times the hold on the five coin to have the
same long term average cost. What game are we talking? Surely not 9=6
jacks or double double bonus?

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

#16

CORRECTION TO MY MATH:
The difference between an expected loss of 0.00625¢ (per hand)
and an expected loss of 0.00475¢ (per hand) is 0.0015¢. After
1000 hands, that's an additional loss of $1.50 if I play five coins vs.
one coin! I stand behind my original statement!

···

On Mon, Feb 9, 2009 at 4:16 PM, Curtis Rich <lgtvegas@gmail.com> wrote:

According to the QOD article, the game is 9/6 JOB at 25¢ level.

According to the QOD, the expected loss per hand is the casino
advantage x the coin denomination x the number of coins played.
Playing 5 coins, the equation is -.005 x .25 x 5 = -.00625, which
(QOD said) is "a loss of a little more than half a penny per hand."

According to the QOD, the same calculation for short-coin play is
the same, but changing the number of coins and the casino edge
(from 99.54% to 98.1%). [I'm not sure where they got the 98.1%.]
According to the QOD, this calculation "....yields loss-per-hand
numbers of approximately 2¢ when playing four coins, 1.5¢ for three
coins, 1¢ for two coins, and .5¢ for playing just one coin."

.019 x .25 x 1 = .00475, which is a loss of a little less than half
a penny per hand.

According to the QOD article, it is an expected loss of 0.00625¢
(per hand) when playing five coins and an expected loss of
0.00475¢ (per hand) when playing one coin.

In my original post, I said:
"If I'm going to lose a half a penny on every hand (by betting either
1 coin or 5), I want a shot at a $1,000 jackpot....not a $62.50 jackpot!"

The difference between an expected loss of 0.00625¢ (per hand)
and an expected loss of 0.00475¢ (per hand) is 0.0015¢. After
1000 hands, that's an additional loss of 15¢ if I play five coins vs.
one coin! I stand behind my original statement!

However, in actuality, most of us (in this Group) are not playing
video poker without receiving comps, cash-back, promotional
offers, and other things which boost the EV and make our play
over 100%. So, discussing playing a negative-expectation game
in this Group is almost a moot point.

For fun, I present the following estimates of hourly losses,
assuming no comps, cash-back, or anything else deducted from
the house edge.

Playing 25¢ 9/6 JOB 500 hands per hour:
Playing five coins (99.54%), the estimated hourly loss is $2.88.
Playing one coin (98.37%), the estimated hourly loss is $2.04.

Playing 5¢ 9/6 JOB 500 hands per hour:
Playing five coins, the estimated hourly loss is $0.58.
Playing one coin, the estimated hourly loss is $0.41.

I still think that the small amount of additional expected loss
(by playing five coins) is easily made up for the 'joy and
excitement' of getting a $1,000.00 jackpot vs. getting only
$62.50.

Curtis

On Mon, Feb 9, 2009 at 3:14 PM, nightoftheiguana2000 < > nightoftheiguana2000@yahoo.com> wrote:

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, Curtis Rich <LGTVegas@...> wrote:
> If I am going to give up approximately the same amount of money
> [$0.005] per hand, whether betting one coin or five coins per hand,

I detect a problem right there, do you see it? The hold on the one
coin would have to be five times the hold on the five coin to have the
same long term average cost. What game are we talking? Surely not 9=6
jacks or double double bonus?

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]