vpFREE2 Forums

losing streaks and recovery methods

In a message dated 3/14/2006 6:56:48 P.M. Pacific Standard Time,
peso@onemain.com writes:

I would like to thank some of our better known players for posting
details and warnings about losing streaks.
My question is this, As the bad run progresses and your bank roll depletes
do serious advantage players change their style of play?

Well, I'm in the middle of a bad losing streak and am considering moving
down for a while to less costly machines. (I usually play the 5c 10 play at
Rampart which is twice the cost of a 25c single play).

Karen

"She was not quite what you would call refined. She was not quite what you
would call unrefined. She was the kind of person that keeps a parrot."
- Mark Twain

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

message dated 3/14/2006 6:56:48 P.M. Pacific Standard Time,

peso@... writes:

As the bad run progresses and your bank roll depletes do serious
advantage players change their style of play?

···

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, krallison416@... wrote:

We are quarter Triple Play players. When I go through $4,000 or so of
my bankroll, I go find the best single line quarter progressives and
just plunk along on those until the royal God shines upon me a couple
times. Then it's back to Triple Play.

I feel your pain Karen, but you may want to examine Jazbo's n play page.
You might find that you are increasing your BR requirements by "stepping
down" from 10 play nickel to single play quarter, which is definitely not
the effect you want. And if your sessions are determined by time goals (for
example, you like to play for an hour a day 3 times a week) rather than
specific coin in goals (that you stop play upon reaching) you may find that
you are generating as much or more coin in(because you can play more hands
during a given period) playing the single play. I have no idea what the
Rampart vp situation is and I'm not one of the very talented vp gearheads on
this forum, but I would look before I leap.

Chandler

···

-----Original Message-----
From: vpFREE@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vpF…@…com]On Behalf Of
krallison416@aol.com
Sent: Tuesday, March 14, 2006 10:01 PM
To: vpFREE@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [vpFREE] losing streaks and recovery methods

In a message dated 3/14/2006 6:56:48 P.M. Pacific Standard Time,
peso@onemain.com writes:

I would like to thank some of our better known players for posting
details and warnings about losing streaks.
My question is this, As the bad run progresses and your bank roll depletes
do serious advantage players change their style of play?

Well, I'm in the middle of a bad losing streak and am considering moving
down for a while to less costly machines. (I usually play the 5c 10 play
at
Rampart which is twice the cost of a 25c single play).

Karen

"She was not quite what you would call refined. She was not quite what you
would call unrefined. She was the kind of person that keeps a parrot."
- Mark Twain

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

vpFREE Links: http://members.cox.net/vpfree/Links.htm

Yahoo! Groups Links

My question is this, As the bad run progresses and your bank roll

depletes

do serious advantage players change their style of play?

You could Kelly bet.

Optimum Kelly bet is Bankroll x (ER -1 + cashback) / variance

For example, if the game you were considering was FPDW, and your
bankroll was $5,000:

Optimum Kelly bet would be $5,000 x (1.0076-1) / 26 = $1.46 per hand

As your bankroll goes up or down, your optimum bet size goes up or down.

http://www.jazbo.com/videopoker/kelly.html

···

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, krallison416@... wrote:

krallison416 wrote:

Well, I'm in the middle of a bad losing streak and am considering
moving down for a while to less costly machines. (I usually play
the 5c 10 play at Rampart which is twice the cost of a 25c single
play).

As improbable as it may seem, the ROR of a positive play for 5c
10-play with any given bankroll is significantly smaller than single
line $.25 play because of the dispersion of risk.

- Harry

krallison416 wrote:

I would like to thank some of our better known players for posting
details and warnings about losing streaks.
My question is this, As the bad run progresses and your bank roll
depletes do serious advantage players change their style of play?

I should, as Chandler did, credit Jazbo's website as the basis of my
initial post (I read "sequentially" and came across Chandler's
comments after my post to you). I'll note, however, that SUBSTANTIAL
interpretation of his n-play comments is required to gather a strong
comprehension of n-play risk -- both bankroll and session.

···

------------

Concerning your "serious advantage player" question -- Jean Scott's
comments are absolutely authoritative on this subject given her
extensive play experience. Her statement reflects that the most
serious of players strive for vp play that is well within their
physical and, as Jean puts it, psychological bankrolls. (They might,
however, occasionally overstetch in approaching a new play and
subsequently back off - or take a "pot shot" from time to time.)

However, I suspect most players (I include myself among them) are
tempted to take on play that represents a risk of ruin (ROR)
considerably beyond what they'll comfortably tolerate over the long
term. The comp and promotional benefits are extremely tempting.

There is a frequently cited "bankroll requirement" for play of 4-6
royals (I've seen this attributed to Bob Dancer - not sure if that's
accurate). Behind every bankroll statement is an assumption about
game return and risk. The "4-6 royal" measure represents a long-term
risk of under 5% for a game with fairly high return and low variance
-- FPDW w/ .25% cb (about 1% advantage) is a prime example.

However, the plays available to players at denominations above $.25 or
on multiplays typically are at far more modest returns and a 5% ROR
bankroll requirement is considerably higher.

I cite "5% ROR" because I consider that the greatest risk at which a
prudent player would push their play. Granted, this is a "long term"
risk. Many will say that they're comfortable with a 1 in 20 risk that
they'll bust over the course of play during their lives. However,
because anyone who successfully hangs in for the long haul will
realize decent growth in their bankroll from decently positive play,
those who bust will do so in the SHORT-TERM. The most prudent of
players will strive to keep their ROR reigned in to no more than 2%,
where occasional loss streaks may take them higher temporarily.

------------

A gaming mathematician named Cindy Liu developed a video poker
analyzer that provides an excellent assessment of game risk and
bankroll requirements. It can be found at:
http://www.gamblingtools.net/vp/vpanalyzer.html

It calculates ROR for a given bankroll when playing a game under
stated cashback assumptions (you'd also include available promotional
cash - added as a percentage of the related trip coin-in). It also
calculates the bankroll representing a given ROR.

A few notes about use:

The calculator is Java based. It's necessary to enable Java in your
browser if not already enabled (it's disabled in some cases to ensure
the strongest precaution against viruses, etc. - however a strong
virus tool should provide the necessary safeguard).

The calculator is limited to a few basic game "templates" (e.g. DW,
JB, etc.) Games with paytables that don't conform to those included
in the calculator, e.g. DDB, can't be analyzed.

To analyze a game, you first select the game type. A default paytable
will appear -- modify it as necessary and then click on "Calculate" to
determine game return and variance.

Next, enter cashback as a decimal number, not a percent. CB of .25%
would be entered as .0025. If you typically receive some type of
bonus in addition to CB, add that. For example, if you redeem $25 of
additional cash on an average of $16K trip play, you would add .00156
or a total of .00406.

You can now calculate your bankroll requirement for a given ROR or,
alternatively, the ROR for a stated bankroll. Enter the known amount
and click the appropriate button to calculate the unknown variable.

The bankroll should be input as number of bets when determining ROR
(and will be calculated in those terms when providing a ROR). For
example, if you're playing $.25 vp with a bankroll of $5000, the
bankroll input would be 4000 bets (a $1000 royal is 800 bets). For $1
vp with a bankroll of $15000, the bankroll would stated as 3000 bets.

As an example, 10/7 DB w/ .2% cb and .15% bonus (.35% total), has a 5%
ROR bankroll requirement of 7687 bets, or a little under 10 royals.
The 2% ROR is 10038 bets - about 12.5 royals.

Jazbo's website (with some interpretation) can be used to augment this
information to calculate multiplay bankroll and ROR.

- Harry

wizard's version includes DDB:
http://wizardofodds.com/videopoker/analyzer/CindyProg.html

···

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "Harry Porter" <harry.porter@...> wrote:

The calculator is limited to a few basic game "templates" (e.g. DW,
JB, etc.) Games with paytables that don't conform to those included
in the calculator, e.g. DDB, can't be analyzed.

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "Harry Porter" <harry.porter@...>
wrote:

I should, as Chandler did, credit Jazbo's website as the basis of my
initial post (I read "sequentially" and came across Chandler's
comments after my post to you). I'll note, however, that

SUBSTANTIAL

interpretation of his n-play comments is required to gather a strong
comprehension of n-play risk -- both bankroll and session.

I credited his work primarily because I didn't trust myself to
explain it;-)

------------

Concerning your "serious advantage player" question -- Jean Scott's
comments are absolutely authoritative on this subject given her
extensive play experience. Her statement reflects that the most
serious of players strive for vp play that is well within their
physical and, as Jean puts it, psychological bankrolls. (They

might,

however, occasionally overstetch in approaching a new play and
subsequently back off - or take a "pot shot" from time to time.)

However, I suspect most players (I include myself among them) are
tempted to take on play that represents a risk of ruin (ROR)
considerably beyond what they'll comfortably tolerate over the long
term. The comp and promotional benefits are extremely tempting.

As a recreational player, I have a new respect for maximzing ER, ROR
and volatility. There's nothing like an ugly streak to sober you up
and get you to reassess and ask some questions... much like Karen is
doing now. I had a 10K loss including cash slot benefits during an 8
month period last year playing mostly quarter NSUD. I couldn't hit
anything on a vp machine if I had a hammer, and my gallows humor was
beginning to wear thin. 10 K is not much by the standards of many
here, but it put a big dent in my psychological roll. So bright
spark that I am, I ask myself a couple of questions.

Is something going wrong? Well, duh. I'm losing my ass. Magic Eight
Ball says yes.

What is going wrong? Is it my accuracy? My play could be tightened
up a little and I resolve to work on it, but I decide that this
doesn't solve the problem.

Could I play a better game with higher ER? Yes, but I decide I am
happy to spend a couple of tenths ER to save myself from some crazy
variance and even larger BR requirements, which is my current problem
anyway.

Do I have realistic bankroll expectations? A quick look at Cindy
Liu's neat little bit of magic says not really. The slot benefits
have steadily declined at this casino and when I plug realistic
numbers in, I get a larger BR figure than I expected.

Possible solutions? Find better opportunities --I'm working on that
one. Shift play to the same action in multi nickels to bring that
BRR figure down. Play only those situations that maximized my ER.
And from a psychological perspective, I decided to put myself in
positions where I was going to enjoy my play --This meant playing
locally a lot less.

Reevaluating, what one is playing, where one is playing and how one
is playing makes sense and should probably be done on a regular basis
rather than just after bankroll hemorrhaging.

Chandler

I got curious, picked up a pencil and did a little chicken scratching
this morning. With a modest .25 slot club benefit 10/7 DB at 5% ROR
requires an approximate $12K at single quarters and $5K at 10 play
nickels. If my doodlings are accurate (a big if) that is a serious
difference.

Chandler

···

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "Harry Porter" <harry.porter@...> wrote:

As improbable as it may seem, the ROR of a positive play for 5c
10-play with any given bankroll is significantly smaller than single
line $.25 play because of the dispersion of risk.

- Harry