Learning 10/7 (or 9/7) DB

[Scott_Harker1]

Quick question for the group.

Since I became a more serious student of VP (thanks to TS and a few others), I've learned only one game well (deuces). I learned mostly by constant practice on WinPoker, and by reading the Paymar book. I've developed a pretty good game, and I've had some success at the machines in Vegas when I'm able to go (2-3 times a year).

Recently, I've learned that there are a lot fewer FPDW games (I play at the quarter level, sometimes nickels) out there. I've begun to learn 10/7 DB as an alternate game to play. I have a trip planned for June (staying at the Orleans for a week) and then one in August (mainly for poker, but I will be playing VP too, of course). I noticed that there are a lot more FP DB games around (like at the Orleans) than FPDW, so I thought it a good idea to learn this game. However, it's HARD!

I have Dancer's strategy cards, but the bulk of my practice has been in WinPoker (with all warnings of bad plays turned on, so I can learn as I play). It's a rather counter-intuitive game to me, and so I have to ask the experts; what is the best way to learn this game? As I said, all I have is the strategy cards and the software. Is there something else that might help me learn this game a little easier?

Thanks in advance.

scottro

···

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[pelotari1672]

Hi Scott,

I'll second what Xibe said. I attended one of Bob Dancer's DB
seminars, but I learned far more from studying his DB report and
practicing A LOT on WinPoker.

I find DB to be a more interesting game to play than DW, but a couple
of words of caution....it's definitely more difficult to master, and
it's WAY more volatile. You'll run into longer (and costlier) losing
streaks in DB, but when the winning streaks come they'll fill your
pockets fuller faster.

Some of the correct plays in DB do seem to "go against the grain".
For example, I hate holding that fourth card in suit when I have
three to the royal. However, after enough practice, those seemingly
unusual moves become second nature.

Have fun!

Regards,
Perry

Quick question for the group.

Since I became a more serious student of VP (thanks to TS and a few

others), I've learned only one game well (deuces). I learned mostly
by constant practice on WinPoker, and by reading the Paymar book.
I've developed a pretty good game, and I've had some success at the
machines in Vegas when I'm able to go (2-3 times a year).

Recently, I've learned that there are a lot fewer FPDW games (I

play at the quarter level, sometimes nickels) out there. I've begun
to learn 10/7 DB as an alternate game to play. I have a trip planned
for June (staying at the Orleans for a week) and then one in August
(mainly for poker, but I will be playing VP too, of course). I
noticed that there are a lot more FP DB games around (like at the
Orleans) than FPDW, so I thought it a good idea to learn this game.
However, it's HARD!

I have Dancer's strategy cards, but the bulk of my practice has

been in WinPoker (with all warnings of bad plays turned on, so I can
learn as I play). It's a rather counter-intuitive game to me, and so
I have to ask the experts; what is the best way to learn this game?
As I said, all I have is the strategy cards and the software. Is
there something else that might help me learn this game a little
easier?

···

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "Scott Harker" <scottro77@n...> wrote:

Thanks in advance.

scottro

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Like to play online poker? Get $100 free at PartyPoker!
http://www.partypoker.com/index20100.htm?wm=2004330

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[Scott_Harker1]

Thanks for all of the replies! this group is great.

I'll pick up the Dancer guide for sure, but I've got a question on the WinPoker adjustments suggested by Neil. What, exactly, should I set them to?

Any help is appreciated.

Thanks again,
scottro

···

----- Original Message -----
  From: pelotari1672
  To: vpFREE@yahoogroups.com
  Sent: Wednesday, May 21, 2003 10:17 PM
  Subject: [vpFREE] Re: Learning 10/7 (or 9/7) DB

  Hi Scott,

  I'll second what Xibe said. I attended one of Bob Dancer's DB
  seminars, but I learned far more from studying his DB report and
  practicing A LOT on WinPoker.

  I find DB to be a more interesting game to play than DW, but a couple
  of words of caution....it's definitely more difficult to master, and
  it's WAY more volatile. You'll run into longer (and costlier) losing
  streaks in DB, but when the winning streaks come they'll fill your
  pockets fuller faster.

  Some of the correct plays in DB do seem to "go against the grain".
  For example, I hate holding that fourth card in suit when I have
  three to the royal. However, after enough practice, those seemingly
  unusual moves become second nature.

  Have fun!

  Regards,
  Perry

  --- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "Scott Harker" <scottro77@n...> wrote:
  > Quick question for the group.
  >
  > Since I became a more serious student of VP (thanks to TS and a few
  others), I've learned only one game well (deuces). I learned mostly
  by constant practice on WinPoker, and by reading the Paymar book.
  I've developed a pretty good game, and I've had some success at the
  machines in Vegas when I'm able to go (2-3 times a year).
  >
  > Recently, I've learned that there are a lot fewer FPDW games (I
  play at the quarter level, sometimes nickels) out there. I've begun
  to learn 10/7 DB as an alternate game to play. I have a trip planned
  for June (staying at the Orleans for a week) and then one in August
  (mainly for poker, but I will be playing VP too, of course). I
  noticed that there are a lot more FP DB games around (like at the
  Orleans) than FPDW, so I thought it a good idea to learn this game.
  However, it's HARD!
  >
  > I have Dancer's strategy cards, but the bulk of my practice has
  been in WinPoker (with all warnings of bad plays turned on, so I can
  learn as I play). It's a rather counter-intuitive game to me, and so
  I have to ask the experts; what is the best way to learn this game?
  As I said, all I have is the strategy cards and the software. Is
  there something else that might help me learn this game a little
  easier?
  >
  > Thanks in advance.
  >
  > scottro
  >
  > -----------------------------------------------------------------
  > Like to play online poker? Get $100 free at PartyPoker!
  > http://www.partypoker.com/index20100.htm?wm=2004330
  >
  >
  >
  > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[pelotari1672]

I'll pick up the Dancer guide for sure, but I've got a question on

the WinPoker adjustments suggested by Neil. What, exactly, should I
set them to?

Scott,

I'm not familiar with what kind of adjustments had been suggested.
Can you fill me in?

Regards,
Perry

[Scott_Harker1]

I was referring to the error sensitivity settings under Training Modes > Error Settings. You can set them to ignore the smaller errors that don't make a huge monetary difference in the long run. I'm not sure how exactly to do this, however. I mean, it's a simple interface, but I'm just not sure what numbers to use to get this to where I need it to be to avoid all of the tiny, obscure penalty card errors.

Thanks,
Scott

···

----- Original Message -----
  From: pelotari1672
  To: vpFREE@yahoogroups.com
  Sent: Thursday, May 22, 2003 9:50 AM
  Subject: [vpFREE] Re: Learning 10/7 (or 9/7) DB

  > I'll pick up the Dancer guide for sure, but I've got a question on
  the WinPoker adjustments suggested by Neil. What, exactly, should I
  set them to?
  >

  Scott,

  I'm not familiar with what kind of adjustments had been suggested.
  Can you fill me in?

  Regards,
  Perry

        Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
       
  vpFREE Links: http://tinyurl.com/a7ga

  Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[testpro_testpro]

I find DB to be a more interesting game to play than DW, but a

couple

of words of caution....it's definitely more difficult to master,

and

it's WAY more volatile.

What is the volatility of each, I thought they were pretty close like
FPDW variance around 26 and 10/7 DB variance around 28.

[Harry_Porter]

Scott Harker wrote:

I was referring to the error sensitivity settings under Training
Modes > Error Settings. You can set them to ignore the smaller
errors that don't make a huge monetary difference in the long run.
I'm not sure how exactly to do this, however. I mean, it's a simple
interface, but I'm just not sure what numbers to use to get this to
where I need it to be to avoid all of the tiny, obscure penalty card
errors.

Scott, there's a bit of a catch-22 situation in tweaking Winpoker to
ignore penalty card related errors. The larger error cost you ignore
the more likely it is that you'll ignore standard (non-penalty)
errors. Unfortunately, there's no clear demarcation between the two
types of errors.

For double bonus I recommend a setting which ignores minor errors with
a cost of less than .01 coins (1 cent if playing $'s, .25 cents if
quarters). This will flag relatively few strategy-related errors,
while ignoring only the least costly basic strategy errors. If you
want to be a real stickler and minimize the basic strategy errors
ignored, you can cut these numbers in half.

However, if you play with minimal errors flagged by winpoker using the
higher threshold, you'll be playing at close to 99.98% of the game
theoretical return -- something any player should be quite happy with.

- Harry

[Harry_Porter]

I wanted to add a footnote. When it comes to measuring your play
accuracy against basic strategy, Frugal Video Poker is a superior
tool. It allows you to practice in "Strategy Mode".

In that mode, all basic strategy errors are flagged and ALL penalty
errors are automatically ignored, without any tweaking necessary.
This means that your play is judged strictly against how closely you
follow basic strategy.

While I learned and now practice double bonus using winpoker, there's
no doubt that at the point I introduce my wife to the game that it
will be with Frugal Video Poker. The alternative would probably lead
to my wife taking up a brief Reno residency on our next LV visit :).

- Harry

Note: FVP also allows you to practice in Perfect Play mode. In both
modes you still have the option of setting an error threshold to ignore.

[Harry_Porter]

testpro wrote:

What is the volatility of each, I thought they were pretty close like
FPDW variance around 26 and 10/7 DB variance around 28.

Both games have close to the same variance. However, keep in mind
that these are single point numbers describing the overall paytables
and long-term game experience.

Because 2 pair in DB only pays even money, but a straight in DW
returns 2 bets, a single DB session can prove to be much more volatile
than a DW session of comparable length.

- Harry

[testpro_testpro]

Both games have close to the same variance. However, keep in mind
that these are single point numbers describing the overall paytables
and long-term game experience.

I'm not getting it. If variance tells me the size of the swing in my
bankroll, they are pretty similar I would guess that after 3000 hands
I am not more likely to be up (or down) on one game more than the
other. If however one of the games had twice the variance of the
other, it would appear to me to be more likely to have a more extreme
result after 3000 hands. Do simplistically I was thinking the more
similar the variance, the more similarity in the way each game would
treat my bankroll.

[Harry_Porter]

testpro wrote:

> Simplistically I was thinking the more similar the variance, the more
> similarity in the way each game would treat my bankroll.

If you're talking about comparing trials of several hundred thousand
hands, then you're likely very much on target.

However, in a shorter trial of 3000 hands, fluctuations in the
occurance of relatively frequently occurring hands can have a
dramatically different effect in each game. This is what gives rise
to the considerably greater short-term volatility of DB vs. DW.

- Harry

[testpro_testpro]

However, in a shorter trial of 3000 hands, fluctuations in the
occurance of relatively frequently occurring hands can have a
dramatically different effect in each game. This is what gives rise
to the considerably greater short-term volatility of DB vs. DW.

I did not know there was "short-term" volitility too, I thought
variance was synonymous with volitility and only find one figure for
variance for each game. Still not getting it.

[pelotari1672]

Harry,

I'm glad I took the time to read your reply before I tried to answer
that question! Thanks for explaining what I knew from experience,
but probably wouldn't have been able to convey as well.

Regards,
Perry

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "Harry Porter" <harry.porter@v...>
wrote:

testpro wrote:
> > Simplistically I was thinking the more similar the variance,

the more

···

> > similarity in the way each game would treat my bankroll.

If you're talking about comparing trials of several hundred thousand
hands, then you're likely very much on target.

However, in a shorter trial of 3000 hands, fluctuations in the
occurance of relatively frequently occurring hands can have a
dramatically different effect in each game. This is what gives rise
to the considerably greater short-term volatility of DB vs. DW.

- Harry

[Harry_Porter]

testpro wrote:

I did not know there was "short-term" volitility too, I thought
variance was synonymous with volitility and only find one figure for
variance for each game. Still not getting it.

To start with, keep in mind that volatility is a concept of
comparison. There's really no absolute sense of volatility, only the
comparison of how one phenomenon fluctuates relative to another.

Variance is a statistical measure of volatility, not a direct
representative of volatility in itself. There are other measures, and
in some cases standard deviation (the square root of volatility) can
be a better measure for comparison. Also, variance is a relatively
long-term measurement. It tells you much less about what happens in
the short-term.

Ok, back to volatility. A component of the comparison is the element
of time. For example, we may very find that for a city (A) that
during a given month the fluctuation in daily highs is considerably
larger than in a second city (B) as a consequence of relative
geographies. We'd deem the temperatures to be more volatile in city A
for that month of the year. However, if we look over the course of a
year, it could be the case that city A's temperatures is much more
stable than in B, assuming B were in a more variable climate. In this
instance B would be deemed to have a more volatile temperature range
over the course of the year. The point is simply that the concept of
volatility implicitly involves time as a frame of reference.

···

------

That said, let me construct what I hope is a basic example to
demonstrate the relatively greater volatility of DB over DW over a
single session.

Let's assume that we're looking at a sample run of 1600 hands and that
during those runs we only hit hands in respective games that have a
cycle of 1600 hands or shorter. Let's also assume the the hands that
are hit occur roughly proportional to their expected occurance.

In the case of DW, we'd be talking about hitting hands no higher than
a quad, and would achieve a return of 94.9% -- a shortfall of about
5.8% from the long-term ER of the game.

In the case of DB, we'd be limited to quad 5's-K's, and would achieve
a return of 90.6% -- a shortfall of about 9.6% from the DB ER.

With a considerably higher shortfall in EV under these assumptions, DB
play will certainly deplete our session stake much faster than DW. Of
course, the other side of that is that ultimately we'll start
receiving the lesser occurring natural quads, particularly in DB, that
will quickly catch us up (or so we hope :). Either way, we're looking
at a far bumpier short-term ride with DB.

However, consistent with the similar variance of the two games, you
can expect longer-term results to deviate from the ER of the
respective games to comparable degrees.

------

I hope this makes things a little clearer rather than muddying the
waters further :).

- Harry

[Harry_Porter]

My self-editing leaves much to be desired. My discussion of DW in my
hypothetical scenario should have stated:

In the case of DW, we'd be talking about hitting hands no higher than
a wild royal flush.

Note the substitution of "wild royal flush" for "quad".
Sorry for any confusion.

- H.

[Les_Silber]

As an alternative to FPDW I find DDB more enjoyable than DB. Especiallt at The Palms where the machines are 10 feet away from each other.

···

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[testpro_testpro]

Thanks, I'll have to read and read again, but

"In the case of DW, we'd be talking about hitting hands no higher
than a wild royal flush, and would achieve a return of 94.9% -- a
shortfall of about 5.8% from the long-term ER of the game.

In the case of DB, we'd be limited to quad 5's-K's, and would achieve
a return of 90.6% -- a shortfall of about 9.6% from the DB ER.

Made a lot of sense to me.