vpFREE2 Forums

KINGS PAY

#1

I am not in any way trying to speak for Mickey here.

However, I got the impression that he wanted nonpros to figure the EV either
completely "by hand," or using older software, like WinPoker, that won't do
the entire calculation, forcing you to do some of the work yourself. Like
figuring in the EV contribution of the various trips, and the quad Kings plus
the meter.

What's the challenge if you just feed the latest software the paytable, and
it cranks out the EV?

Figuring out how to calculate something yourself greatly adds to your
understanding of VP, and, in particular, lets you assign correct values to various
game/promo combinations. You pretty much learn nothing if the software does
all the work for you.

Too late now, I guess.

Brian

···

===============================================

In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "mickeycrimm" <mickeycrimm@...> wrote:

I challenge you. Determine the payback of the above payscale. Use
your own devices. But find a way. You must make the attempt. You
must find a way.

**************It's Tax Time! Get tips, forms, and advice on AOL Money &
Finance. (http://money.aol.com/tax?NCID=aolprf00030000000001)

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

#2

bjaygold wrote:

I am not in any way trying to speak for Mickey here.

However, I got the impression that he wanted nonpros to figure the EV
either completely "by hand," or using older software, like WinPoker,
that won't do the entire calculation, forcing you to do some of the
work yourself. Like figuring in the EV contribution of the various
trips, and the quad Kings plus the meter.

What's the challenge if you just feed the latest software the
paytable, and it cranks out the EV?

Figuring out how to calculate something yourself greatly adds to your
understanding of VP, and, in particular, lets you assign correct
values to various game/promo combinations. You pretty much learn
nothing if the software does all the work for you.

Too late now, I guess.

You needn't qualify that as an "impression"; there was no mistaking
that he offered up as an analytic exercise/challenge -- not an
invitation to crank some numbers through commercial software.

Aside from the chance to stretch one's wings, an ensuing discussion of
the means by which one arrived at their calculation enriches all
interested.

That goes whether one managed to crank out a value with minimal
computer assistance, snagged one as a consequence of their own
programming, extrapolated from known info, or pulled one pat out of
commercial software. In any case, an explanation that yields insight
to others and also gives due credit where deserved is warranted.

I contributed my post after prior offerings ensured I wouldn't be
stealing any thunder. It was an opportunity to highlight a unique,
positive attribute of Wolf VP software and bring it to others'
attention for their benefit.

- Harry

(Don't view this post as defensive ... I'm doing a little
well-intentioned soap boxing that I had initially suppressed.)

#3

I am not in any way trying to speak for Mickey here.

However, I got the impression that he wanted nonpros to figure the

EV either

completely "by hand," or using older software, like WinPoker, that

won't do

the entire calculation, forcing you to do some of the work

yourself. Like

figuring in the EV contribution of the various trips, and the quad

Kings plus

the meter.

What's the challenge if you just feed the latest software the

paytable, and

it cranks out the EV?

Figuring out how to calculate something yourself greatly adds to

your

understanding of VP, and, in particular, lets you assign correct

values to various

game/promo combinations. You pretty much learn nothing if the

software does

all the work for you.

Too late now, I guess.

I had the same impression (?) early this AM as well. It took me about
5 minutes using winpokers define game facility and averaging out the
3oaks. I didn't use WVP because that wouldn't be any different than
analyzing any other game. I didn't post any results since I wanted to
see what would happen.

Now, where is this game :wink:

Dick

···

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, bjaygold@... wrote:

#4

I am not in any way trying to speak for Mickey here.

However, I got the impression that he wanted nonpros to figure the

EV either

completely "by hand," or using older software, like WinPoker, that

won't do

the entire calculation, forcing you to do some of the work

yourself. Like

figuring in the EV contribution of the various trips, and the quad

Kings plus

the meter.

What's the challenge if you just feed the latest software the

paytable, and

it cranks out the EV?

Figuring out how to calculate something yourself greatly adds to

your

understanding of VP, and, in particular, lets you assign correct

values to various

game/promo combinations. You pretty much learn nothing if the

software does

all the work for you.

Too late now, I guess.

Brian

===============================================

No disrespect intended Brian, but I'd have to disagree.

30 years ago I used to use a slide rule to figure out complex
mathmatical calculations. Then a great thing happened. Texas
Instruments figured out how to use this new fangled thing called an
integrated circuit to make a calculator. Lo and behold, those
calculations weren't so complicated anymore.

A few years later, IBM figured out how to make a personal computer
and it was goodbye punch cards and main frames.

Even more years later, Dean Zamzow figured out an algorithm to let
that PC do the ~2.5M^2 calculations needed to analyze VP in a timely
manner and created WinPoker.

Now, the new technology kids on the block, in terms of video poker,
are Wolf Video Poker (and I agree with Harry, it's a great program --
too bad it doesn't have graphics closer to real VP machines, probably
something to do with copyright infringement) and Video Poker for
Winners (sorry Bob, I tried the trial version but didn't spring for
the full version as my old computer couldn't handle it -- but I have
a new computer now, so maybe someday).

Learning to use current day tools and software in an efficient,
accurate way is just a different form of learning.

Now, where did I put that slide rule?

Bill

···

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, bjaygold@... wrote:

#5

Weharter said: Learning to use current day tools and software in an
efficient,
accurate way is just a different form of learning.

I agree. And using WVP or VPW correctly on this problem isn't such a
"non-challenge" as Harry implied. It takes awhile to familiarize
yourself with the various features of any software --- and some folks
are better suited to figuring it out for themselves than others. Anyone
who has either software would be well advised to see if they can come up
with the same percentage return figured out by others here. If you have
WinPoker and need to make estimates, you should still be able to get
rather close.

It's no longer a big mystery what the return is --- but until you can
duplicate that return yourself by using whatever tools you have, you
haven't learned anything from the exercise.

Surely we know Mickey well enough by now to believe that the location of
this opportunity will remain a secret so long as the game is there.
After the casino removes it (or kicks him off), he may tell us. But
learning how to use these tools to figure this stuff out will pay
benefits the next time you come across an unusual pay schedule ---
assuming you go scouting for them.

Bob Dancer

For a 3-day free trial of Video Poker for Winners, the best video poker
computer trainer ever invented, go to //www.videopokerforwinners.com

#6

I'm going to speculate that this play is extinct.

Chandler

···

-----Original Message-----
From: vpFREE@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vpF…@…com]On Behalf Of
Bob Dancer
Sent: Tuesday, March 04, 2008 7:55 PM
To: vpFREE@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [vpFREE] Re: KINGS PAY

Surely we know Mickey well enough by now to believe that the location of
this opportunity will remain a secret so long as the game is there.
After the casino removes it (or kicks him off), he may tell us. But
learning how to use these tools to figure this stuff out will pay
benefits the next time you come across an unusual pay schedule ---
assuming you go scouting for them.

Bob Dancer

#7

I'm slow. 3 minutes to figure out how to work the problem. 10 minutes with
BDWP, a pencil and a calculater while making an entry error to get the wrong
answer. 2 hours of banging on a sump pump to get the creative juices
flowing again. 5 more minutes on FVP to correct my error;-)

Chandler

···

-----Original Message-----
From: vpFREE@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vpF…@…com]On Behalf Of
mroejacks
Sent: Tuesday, March 04, 2008 6:30 PM
To: vpFREE@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [vpFREE] Re: KINGS PAY

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, bjaygold@... wrote:

I am not in any way trying to speak for Mickey here.

However, I got the impression that he wanted nonpros to figure the

EV either

completely "by hand," or using older software, like WinPoker, that

won't do

the entire calculation, forcing you to do some of the work

yourself. Like

figuring in the EV contribution of the various trips, and the quad

Kings plus

the meter.

What's the challenge if you just feed the latest software the

paytable, and

it cranks out the EV?

Figuring out how to calculate something yourself greatly adds to

your

understanding of VP, and, in particular, lets you assign correct

values to various

game/promo combinations. You pretty much learn nothing if the

software does

all the work for you.

Too late now, I guess.

I had the same impression (?) early this AM as well. It took me about
5 minutes using winpokers define game facility and averaging out the
3oaks. I didn't use WVP because that wouldn't be any different than
analyzing any other game. I didn't post any results since I wanted to
see what would happen.

Now, where is this game :wink:

Dick

vpFREE Links: http://members.cox.net/vpfree/Links.htm

Yahoo! Groups Links

#8

Weharter said: Learning to use current day tools and software in an
efficient,
accurate way is just a different form of learning.

Bob Dancer wrote:
I agree. And using WVP or VPW correctly on this problem isn't such a
"non-challenge" as Harry implied. It takes awhile to familiarize
yourself with the various features of any software --- and some folks
are better suited to figuring it out for themselves than others. Anyone
who has either software would be well advised to see if they can come up
with the same percentage return figured out by others here. If you have
WinPoker and need to make estimates, you should still be able to get
rather close.

It's no longer a big mystery what the return is --- but until you can
duplicate that return yourself by using whatever tools you have, you
haven't learned anything from the exercise.

Surely we know Mickey well enough by now to believe that the location of
this opportunity will remain a secret so long as the game is there.
After the casino removes it (or kicks him off), he may tell us. But
learning how to use these tools to figure this stuff out will pay
benefits the next time you come across an unusual pay schedule ---
assuming you go scouting for them.

Bob Dancer

Kings Pay still lives! Albeit, on one machine. I eventually found the game on a few other machines, sans the meter mistake---and I was right about it being a technicians error. The meter should be starting at $50 not $400.

The machine is located in a very nice little Montana town. I make regular trips to it.

The above is the good news. The bad news is I lost my last machine with a 14.5% advantage--and can't find the meter mistake anymore. I guess they finally got wise and quit making the mistake. It's all over but the crying