vpFREE2 Forums

killer feature for a VP trainer

i already own two VP software packages, FVP and VPW, which is more
than enough. however, there is one feature which, if anyone
implemented it, would get me to shell out another $50 in a heartbeat
and recommend that all my VP-playing friends do the same.

i want directed training. my VP trainer should look at my errors,
identify my problem areas, and give me more hands like the ones that
gave me problems. any good human tutor does this. why not have the
computer tutor do it too?

if i'm practicing NSUD and it gives me W 4d 5s 6d 7d and i hold all
five, then twenty hands later, it should give me W Jh 9h 8h 7s. and if
i get *that* wrong, it should deal me W 6s 9s 5h 7s a few hands later.
basically, it should keep shoving W+SF3 1i vs W+ST4 hands down my
throat until i *do* consistently get it right.

or if i'm practicing JoB with an 8000 royal and forget to hold ATs, or
hold QJo over QTs, then those particular features should be
overrepresented in the hands it gives me later. maybe it could even be
clever enough to also give me extra hands with other close decisions
involving those lines on the strategy chart - like AJo vs ATs in
addition to ATs vs A, or JTs vs QJo in addition to QTs vs QJo.

this is not necessarily an easy thing to implement. there are a lot of
possible patterns for human errors and they are not always easy for a
computer to identify. but it would be so, so useful.

cheers,

five

Winpoker Version 6 has an option to deal hands from an error log. This is the only video poker software I've had, and I purchased it years ago. It's great. It is available on zamzone.com, where you can also buy vp strategy master, which I use ALL the time to produce strategy cards for any many types of games. I always wished that the software would be written to run on small PDA's, and I've also always wished for a small travel printer, so I could print the info out instead of hand-writing them out when on road trips, or using the casino's printer. Hmmm, maybe a small photo printer would be helpful. I could take a picture of the screen where I've formatted my strategy rules in either an Excel or word document, and then print it out as a photo...

Best of luck!

T&J

···

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, fivespot <fivespot55@...> wrote:

i already own two VP software packages, FVP and VPW, which is more
than enough. however, there is one feature which, if anyone
implemented it, would get me to shell out another $50 in a heartbeat
and recommend that all my VP-playing friends do the same.

i want directed training. my VP trainer should look at my errors,
identify my problem areas, and give me more hands like the ones that
gave me problems. any good human tutor does this. why not have the
computer tutor do it too?

if i'm practicing NSUD and it gives me W 4d 5s 6d 7d and i hold all
five, then twenty hands later, it should give me W Jh 9h 8h 7s. and if
i get *that* wrong, it should deal me W 6s 9s 5h 7s a few hands later.
basically, it should keep shoving W+SF3 1i vs W+ST4 hands down my
throat until i *do* consistently get it right.

or if i'm practicing JoB with an 8000 royal and forget to hold ATs, or
hold QJo over QTs, then those particular features should be
overrepresented in the hands it gives me later. maybe it could even be
clever enough to also give me extra hands with other close decisions
involving those lines on the strategy chart - like AJo vs ATs in
addition to ATs vs A, or JTs vs QJo in addition to QTs vs QJo.

this is not necessarily an easy thing to implement. there are a lot of
possible patterns for human errors and they are not always easy for a
computer to identify. but it would be so, so useful.

cheers,

five

<<i want directed training. my VP trainer should look at my errors,
identify my problem areas, and give me more hands like the ones that
gave me problems. any good human tutor does this. why not have the
computer tutor do it too?>>

Frugal Video Poker does this. After you have made at least one error on the game you are playing (you can't choose this option until you have made an error so you might make one on purpose on a hand that is difficult for you), here is what you do:

Replaying Errors (from "Help")

Error replay insures that you learn from your mistakes by re-testing you on errors incurred in your session. You can randomly replay hands that you have missed during a session at a pace that you determine. We also change the suits and the order of the hand, randomly, so that the errant hand does not appear as obvious.

Choose 'Replay Errors' from the 'Options' menu:

� Select 'Enable Random Error Play' to enable this feature (you may also disable error play at any time). If it is enabled, a check will appear in front of the menu item.

� Type in the 'Mix of Errors and Random Hands', which is in the format of 1 out of every (player entry) hands.

If you choose, for example, 'Errors appear approximately 1 out of every 5 hands', this does not mean errant hands will appear every 5'th hand, in the order in which the errors occurred. The errors will appear at a random frequency that averages 1 out of 5 times over the long-term. Errant hands may not occur for 10 hands, or they may appear twice in a row. The error hand dealt is also randomly picked from all of your errors.

I find this a very valuable feature, the one I use most when I practice.

···

________________
Jean $�ott, Frugal Gambler
http://queenofcomps.com/
You can read my blog at
http://jscott.lvablog.com/

The ability to replay hands you made an error on has value, but it's
limited. I've used it and and had two issues with it.

1. You recognize the hand.

2. The hand is in the error log because of a typo. You know you want
to hold all three aces, not just two of them.

Were I designing a practice program, you'd be able to choose a class
of hand to practice, and it would give you example after example until
you had it down cold. They types of hand where this would be useful
would vary by game.

Examples:

Years ago, when I was learning how to play KBJW, I had Winpoker give
me hands with the joker (one of the modes it has is you specifying
cards) and I was able to get more concentrated practice choosing
midcards to hold. I got to the point where I was getting 99%
efficiency without even thinking.

Later I was learning 10/7 DB. I had it present me with hands
including A J (offsuit) and three other random hands. Soon, the rules
about the penalty cards dictating whether to hold the AJ or just the A
were second nature.

<<1. You recognize the hand.>>

Well, it mixes up both the arrangements of the cards and changes the suits and has them randomly appear. And you can purposely make mistakes on the hands you want to practice. And you can set the ratio down to have them appear more often. That gives you pretty good practice on specific types of hands.

···

________________
Jean $�ott, Frugal Gambler
http://queenofcomps.com/
You can read my blog at
http://jscott.lvablog.com/

Dancer's WinPoker 6 does this. Great program; my favorite. Highly recommended over the others.

When Tomski came out with VPSM, Tom needed to come out with the next step which was game selection (after much hem and haw, he decided to build TSI v2.0 and then proceeded to give it away for free -- I still own half the rights to TSI v1.0. The original goal was to integrate WinPoker, VPSM, TSI, and other software, etc as modules -- however, Tom is too nice of a guy so TSI v2.0 is free). After TSI, the next step was tailoring VP strategies -- i.e. low-variance based VP strategies meaning you tradeoff EV for lower variance. For example, in Pick'Em, the simpliest example was to always hold High Pair to any 3-card royal flush. Another form of strategy building was looking at "conflicts" or why people make "mistakes." A "conflict" is when you have two or more "correct" choices for a given flop and please note not all VP strategies are EV-based. I gave Tom the algorithm, and unfortunately, he other pressing projects so it never got started.

In VP, the first rule to developing a strategy is to determine if a dealt hand interferes with strategy or is independent of strategy. For example, you always keep two-pair or trips in 9/6 JOB but you will break pat straight (or flush), respectively. That is to say 2-pair and trips is independent of the strategy but the dealt straight is dependent on the strategy, respectively. This is important because there is a "CONFLICT" between a dealt straight and a better hand (say 4 to the royal flush). My theory is you make a mistake by failing to identify or correctly weigh the "conflict(s)". Had Tom worked on the software, it would have pointed out those conflicts you missed.

That said, I can give you a low-cost, low-tech method (which is free, thus saving you $50 for an extra software). All you need is a marker and a stack of 3.5" blank index cards and some time.

Here's what you do (I use WinPoker 6.0):
1) Set the training mode to "none"
2) Review the strategy (or better yet -- write out the whole strategy on a piece of blank paper)
3) Practice your hands (I practice 100 hands at a time)
4) See if you have any mistakes after the session (repeat steps 2 and 3 until you make mistakes)
5) For each mistake, copy the the 5 card flop on the front side of index card -- on the back, write the hold you made and the correct play and then find the conflict, i.e. the root cause of your mistake. [Btw, Tom's software was designed to print out these cards and with the nice pictures of the cards on the front, the EV on the back for your hand, the best play, and the conflict.]
5) Before you practice again, review or write out the strategy and review your index cards of mistakes!
6) Practice more hands. If you make a mistake for a second time on the same conflict, you then had to make five (5) cards of that hand; a third mistake on the same conflict would entail you making ten (10) cards of that hand, etc.
7) You learn by doing and understanding because as you write out the card 5 times or 10 times (for some people, it may be more), the activity of writing the same mistake over and over again forces you to face that conflict again, again, and again, until you never want to make that mistake again.

A couple of side notes:
1. Tom's software was to print out the strategy (sorted by "buckets"), popular sample hands that contain conflicts (for basic strategy as well as perfect play), and accumulated hand mistakes. For example, on the front of the card would be the graphics depicting the 5 card flop, and the underneath was a question: Which hand is better listing popular choices (thus showing the conflict)? The back of the card, was a list of the EV top 3 or 4 (out of 32 hands like hand analyzer in WinPoker) -- in case you were curious how close the two or three hands were, the correct play (obviously!), and the answer to the conflict.
2. Some AP I know use (mailing) labels when creating these index cards, i.e. the hand for the front of the card and the answer for the back of the card -- meaning the back of the card may have 1,2 or more labels.
3. Remember how some of us learned new vocabuary words or studied for the SAT using the "index card" method? Tom's software would have generate flash cards for vp gamers and allowed people to practice or learn a strategy without the use a computer.

Good luck.

···

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, fivespot <fivespot55@...> wrote:

i already own two VP software packages, FVP and VPW, which is more
than enough. ... i want directed training. my VP trainer should look at my errors, identify my problem areas, and give me more hands like the ones that gave me problems.

heh, thanks jean. this isn't entirely what i want, but it's at least
80% of the way there, and will be of great use.

i'm embarrassed that i hadn't noticed this option already, considering
how much i've used FVP. i think i saw "replay errors" and assumed it
was just playing through missed hands one by one, rather than
inserting permutations of missed hands into the mix.

cheers,

five

···

On Thu, Sep 2, 2010 at 12:44 PM, Jean Scott <queenofcomps@cox.net> wrote:

<<i want directed training. my VP trainer should look at my errors,
identify my problem areas, and give me more hands like the ones that
gave me problems. any good human tutor does this. why not have the
computer tutor do it too?>>

Frugal Video Poker does this.
[...]
Choose 'Replay Errors' from the 'Options' menu:
· Select 'Enable Random Error Play' to enable this feature

This reminds me of Dan Paymar's Optimum Play strategies. For basic strategy, many lines of hand rank tables can be reduced to a sentence.

In a parallel example to the one you give for 9/6 JOB Dan's book says something to the effect of: Hold all paying hands 2 pair or better except break anything but a Straight Flush for a 4 card Royal.

For the beginning player Dan's strategies are very easy to remember. Later on they can be fine tuned, penalty card situations added, etc. This is especially true for JOB, BP and FPDW.

Mac
www.CasinoCamper.com

···

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "fordscks" <jason_c_vp@...> wrote:

In VP, the first rule to developing a strategy is to determine if a dealt hand interferes with strategy or is independent of strategy. For example, you always keep two-pair or trips in 9/6 JOB but you will break pat straight (or flush), respectively. That is to say 2-pair and trips is independent of the strategy but the dealt straight is dependent on the strategy, respectively. This is important because there is a "CONFLICT" between a dealt straight and a better hand (say 4 to the royal flush). My theory is you make a mistake by failing to identify or correctly weigh the "conflict(s)". Had Tom worked on the software, it would have pointed out those conflicts you missed.

What is TSI?

···

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "fordscks" <jason_c_vp@...> wrote:

When Tomski came out with VPSM, Tom needed to come out with the next step which was game selection (after much hem and haw, he decided to build TSI v2.0 and then proceeded to give it away for free -- I still own half the rights to TSI v1.0. The original goal was to

Actually, the primary source of my conflict was from Jazbo's matrix format cards (while I read Paymar's books but never used Paymar's strategy cards). However, if you remember VP logic, a dealt hand can either go up one of "two" branches:
(A) hi-pair - two pair - trips - full house - quads (quints for wilds)
(B) Straight or flushes and then straight flushes (a royal flush is really just a straight flush).

The conflict is determining what is the best branch to pursue. After asking yourself if you have a dealt hand that doesn't interfere with strategy, the next question is do you have 3 cards to a flush, and you get to see the pattern.

Good luck.

···

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "casino_camper" <mac_mcclellan@...> wrote:

This reminds me of Dan Paymar's Optimum Play strategies. For basic strategy, many lines of hand rank tables can be reduced to a sentence.

In a parallel example to the one you give for 9/6 JOB Dan's book says something to the effect of: Hold all paying hands 2 pair or better except break anything but a Straight Flush for a 4 card Royal.

As you may or may not know, before writing my book on Progressive VP and Progressive slot teams in Las Vegas, I managed the largest progressive team in town. We also had the most organized training program for our new recruits of any of the 6 major teams. The training included aptitude tests, flash cards, strategy training and comprehension tests, pattern recognition, and finally one on one live fire training in a casino. Compared to our 1-3 month long training program, the other teams weren't even in the hunt.

I'm currently working on what I call TTT or Team Training Techniques to add to Dan Paymar's software, OpVP (Optimum Video Poker). I can't say what TTT is at this time, due to confidentiality issues, but I can say that if you don't check out OpVP ver 3.0 when it comes out, you'll be sorry. You can check on my web-site www.progressivevp.com for news about its release. It should address all your requests and more.

For now, I also recommend Wolf Video Poker to round out your collection.

~"Science is built up of facts, as a house is built of stones; but an accumulation of facts is no more a science than a heap of stones is a house"

~Frank Kneeland, former manager of the largest Vegas slot team and Author of The Secret World of Video Poker Progressives--A History and How-To of Video Poker Slot Teams in Las Vegas.

···

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, fivespot <fivespot55@...> wrote:

i already own two VP software packages, FVP and VPW, which is more
than enough. however, there is one feature which, if anyone
implemented it, would get me to shell out another $50 in a heartbeat
and recommend that all my VP-playing friends do the same.

i want directed training. my VP trainer should look at my errors,
identify my problem areas, and give me more hands like the ones that
gave me problems. any good human tutor does this. why not have the
computer tutor do it too?

if i'm practicing NSUD and it gives me W 4d 5s 6d 7d and i hold all
five, then twenty hands later, it should give me W Jh 9h 8h 7s. and if
i get *that* wrong, it should deal me W 6s 9s 5h 7s a few hands later.
basically, it should keep shoving W+SF3 1i vs W+ST4 hands down my
throat until i *do* consistently get it right.

or if i'm practicing JoB with an 8000 royal and forget to hold ATs, or
hold QJo over QTs, then those particular features should be
overrepresented in the hands it gives me later. maybe it could even be
clever enough to also give me extra hands with other close decisions
involving those lines on the strategy chart - like AJo vs ATs in
addition to ATs vs A, or JTs vs QJo in addition to QTs vs QJo.

this is not necessarily an easy thing to implement. there are a lot of
possible patterns for human errors and they are not always easy for a
computer to identify. but it would be so, so useful.

cheers,

five

You wrote a book on Progressive VP? Why haven't you mentioned that before?

···

On Thu, Sep 9, 2010 at 4:24 AM, Frank <frank@progressivevp.com> wrote:

As you may or may not know, before writing my book on Progressive VP and Progressive slot teams in Las Vegas,

As you may or may not know, before writing my book on Progressive VP and Progressive slot teams in Las Vegas,

You wrote a book on Progressive VP? Why haven't you mentioned that before?

Kingfish, you mean that you did not see the other 39 times he's mentioned it? So much for your powers of observation.

Nudge
The world's unrenowned expert
at absolutely nothing
Widely known author of this post and many
other just as meaningless ones :slight_smile: .

···

From: "King Fish" <vpkingfish@gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [vpFREE] Re: killer feature for a VP trainer

On Thu, Sep 9, 2010 at 4:24 AM, Frank <frank@progressivevp.com> wrote:

On 9-9 vpkingfish wrote:

Hehe... Great observations. However, I take exception to your signature line. I've gleaned much expert advice from you in the past and glad to know it wasn't for personal gain. Thank you.

Kurt

···

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "nudge51" <nudge51@...> wrote:

Kingfish, you mean that you did not see the other 39 times he's mentioned
it? So much for your powers of observation.

Nudge
The world's unrenowned expert
at absolutely nothing
Widely known author of this post and many
other just as meaningless ones :slight_smile: .

Didn't know I wrote a book? Oh my!

Well I can't fire my press agent as it is me. So as punishment, I'm going to stop talking to myself for at least a week. I hate the silent treatment.

Yes I wrote a book.(See signature line) Dan Paymar was my editor.

It is the only book on progressive VP to date, unless you count Professional Video Poker by Stanford Wong, which is really just a primitive strategy for 5/8 JoB when the RF is up.

It is the only book to discuss the inner workings of the gigantic slot teams that played progressives as their sole income, circa:1980-2000.

It has almost no overlap with previous VP material, and should be entertaining and informative even if you've read all the other books out on VP.

Please don't take my word for any of this. There's plenty of posts by other people that have read it. I'm biased.

~"Some say, the secret to financial success is thinking 'outside the box.' I say, thinking inside the box is fine, as long as you sell the box after you're done."

~Frank Kneeland, former manager of the largest Vegas slot team and Author of "The Secret World of Video Poker Progressives"--A History and How-To of Video Poker Slot Teams in Las Vegas. www.progressivevp.com

···

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, King Fish <vpkingfish@...> wrote:

On Thu, Sep 9, 2010 at 4:24 AM, Frank <frank@...> wrote:

> As you may or may not know, before writing my book on Progressive VP and Progressive slot teams in Las Vegas,

You wrote a book on Progressive VP? Why haven't you mentioned that before?

I think you can start talking to yourself again.

I took the post as "tongue in cheek" so the poster wouldn't
talk to himself.

···

________________________________
From: Frank <frank@progressivevp.com>
To: vpFREE@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Fri, September 10, 2010 11:33:09 AM
Subject: [vpFREE] Re: killer feature for a VP trainer

Didn't know I wrote a book? Oh my!

Well I can't fire my press agent as it is me. So as punishment, I'm going to
stop talking to myself for at least a week. I hate the silent treatment.

Yes I wrote a book.(See signature line) Dan Paymar was my editor.

It is the only book on progressive VP to date, unless you count Professional
Video Poker by Stanford Wong, which is really just a primitive strategy for 5/8
JoB when the RF is up.

It is the only book to discuss the inner workings of the gigantic slot teams
that played progressives as their sole income, circa:1980-2000.

It has almost no overlap with previous VP material, and should be entertaining
and informative even if you've read all the other books out on VP.

Please don't take my word for any of this. There's plenty of posts by other
people that have read it. I'm biased.

~"Some say, the secret to financial success is thinking 'outside the box.' I
say, thinking inside the box is fine, as long as you sell the box after you're
done."

~Frank Kneeland, former manager of the largest Vegas slot team and Author of
"The Secret World of Video Poker Progressives"--A History and How-To of Video
Poker Slot Teams in Las Vegas. www.progressivevp.com

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, King Fish <vpkingfish@...> wrote:

On Thu, Sep 9, 2010 at 4:24 AM, Frank <frank@...> wrote:

> As you may or may not know, before writing my book on Progressive VP and
Progressive slot teams in Las Vegas,

You wrote a book on Progressive VP? Why haven't you mentioned that before?

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Dear Jean,
Frugal Video Poker is the best software on the market. I have purchased everything there is and without a doubt I can do much more with yours. Will you ever do an updated version. I ask because I have 64 bit Vista and am unable to download your software on my computer so I am forced to use my husbands computer if I want to play.
allinqueen2000

···

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "Jean Scott" <queenofcomps@...> wrote:

<<i want directed training. my VP trainer should look at my errors,
identify my problem areas, and give me more hands like the ones that
gave me problems. any good human tutor does this. why not have the
computer tutor do it too?>>

Frugal Video Poker does this. After you have made at least one error on the
game you are playing (you can't choose this option until you have made an
error so you might make one on purpose on a hand that is difficult for you),
here is what you do:

Replaying Errors (from "Help")

Error replay insures that you learn from your mistakes by re-testing you on
errors incurred in your session. You can randomly replay hands that you have
missed during a session at a pace that you determine. We also change the
suits and the order of the hand, randomly, so that the errant hand does not
appear as obvious.

Choose 'Replay Errors' from the 'Options' menu:

· Select 'Enable Random Error Play' to enable this feature (you may also
disable error play at any time). If it is enabled, a check will appear in
front of the menu item.

· Type in the 'Mix of Errors and Random Hands', which is in the format of 1
out of every (player entry) hands.

If you choose, for example, 'Errors appear approximately 1 out of every 5
hands', this does not mean errant hands will appear every 5'th hand, in the
order in which the errors occurred. The errors will appear at a random
frequency that averages 1 out of 5 times over the long-term. Errant hands
may not occur for 10 hands, or they may appear twice in a row. The error
hand dealt is also randomly picked from all of your errors.

I find this a very valuable feature, the one I use most when I practice.
________________
Jean $¢ott, Frugal Gambler
http://queenofcomps.com/
You can read my blog at
http://jscott.lvablog.com/

allinqueen2000 <allinqueen2000@...> wrote:
<Dear Jean,
Frugal Video Poker is the best software on the market. I have purchased everything there is and without a doubt I can do much more with yours. Will you ever do an updated version. I ask because I have 64 bit Vista and am unable to download your software on my computer so I am forced to use my husbands computer if I want to play.>

Here's a fix for you. Download a free piece of software called VirtualBox from their website and install 32-bit Windows XP in it.

This lets you run 32-bit software written for XP on your new 64-bit Vista computer. I know it will work, because that's what I have at home.

Email me if you need more instructions. I am a MS certified computer specialists.

frank@progressivevp.com

<<allinqueen2000 wrote:
Frugal Video Poker is the best software on the market. I have purchased everything there is and without a doubt I can do much more with yours. Will you ever do an updated version. I ask because I have 64 bit Vista and am unable to download your software on my computer so I am forced to use my husbands computer if I want to play.>>

Thanx, Frank, for posting this fix:

<<Here's a fix for you. Download a free piece of software called VirtualBox from their website and install 32-bit Windows XP in it.
This lets you run 32-bit software written for XP on your new 64-bit Vista computer. I know it will work, because that's what I have at home.>>

Here is another solution some have used: If you have a 64-bit machine there is some problem in installing older programs. What you can do is install them on an older machine and then just copy the entire folder to your new machine. This has worked for many people. Here is one person's comment: "I'm running Windows 7 Ultimate 64 bit on one of my computers. When I tried to install FVP from the disc it would not install. I copied the complete set of FVP files from my other drive to Win7. It runs fine."

Some people have had trouble installing FVP with Vista. Here is some notes I have on that:

Installation problems with Vista

A conflict can occur between multi-media engines during installation. To resolve this, boot your computer in "Safe Mode" and re-attempt the installation. You do this by pressing the F8 key and resetting the computer, continuing to press the F8 key as your system boots up. A menu will appear. Select "Safe Mode" and install the game.

Some suggested uninstalling the program and reinstalling it under the new OS.

There is a problem with the Windows SP2 update that corrupts that "autoexec.nt" file. The error that appears states that the "system file is not suitable for running MS-DOS and Windows applications". You can try Microsoft's directions on fixing this problem at http://support.microsoft.com/default.aspx?scid=kb;en-us;324767&Product=winxp.

The help won't work on Vista because they no longer support WinHlp32.
However, you can still install it on your PC. It is non-invasive and
I'm sure you have many other older programs that will need it.
http://support.microsoft.com/kb/917607

I hope all this makes sense. I am so computer unsavvy - the right meaning even if that isn't a word! I have just copied information I have been sent or found in various places.

···

________________
Jean $�ott, Frugal Gambler
http://queenofcomps.com/
You can read my blog at
http://jscott.lvablog.com/