vpFREE2 Forums

Just how random is Video Poker?

#1

All,

First, thanks for all the valuable information you all have posted over
the years. It has been helpful and has helped me to become a
significantly better player!

I completely understand the impact of paytables on machines, and how
they impact payback and ultimate profitability for players, but I am
still hung up on this idea of "random hands".

A. How does the RNG work, i.e. does it select individual cards or does
it select the actual 10 cards that make up the hand?

B. As we sit and play for hours on end, it is obvious that the VP
programs have "gotcha" hands. For example, how many times does a
machine give you an 8 in place of a needed 3, or a 4 in place of a
needed Ace, etc. just to make you think for a split second that you got
what you needed! Clearly sadistic programmers at work, but how can
that be random?

C. Most importantly, if hands are random, how do people like George
Maloof claim to operate the "Royal Flush Capital of the World (first at
Fiesta, then at Palms). The "random" nature of video poker would have
you believe that a casino can't control how often a royal is dealt, but
I highly doubt the Maloof's just happen to be lucky enough to have more
royals come up at their hotels than at another property. They are
obviously "setting" their machines to pay more royals.

I expect a lot of dispute on this subject, and I do want to believe
everything is totally random. What I can't get past is that it appears
some properties or mahines give more quads or royals than others, and
that is not because they are paying 45 vs. 35 for a full house.

Looking forward to the responses!

Jeff

#2

or does it select the actual 10 cards that make up the hand?

···

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "amjmh1" <jeffreymhayes@...> wrote:

How does the RNG work, i.e. does it select individual cards

================================================
The RNG is nothing more or less than an electronic program which
is designed to generate numbers. It is said to move at lightening
speed, and select hundreds of numbers per second.

In Video Poker each number corresponds to a group of 10 cards which
comprise a hand. Five cards for the dealt hand and five cards that
can be drawn.

The RNG has no "human chacteristics" and cannot either "favor" or
"punish" a player with winning or losing hands, under any
circumstances.

As we sit and play for hours on end, it is obvious that the VP

programs have "gotcha" hands. For example, how many times does a
machine give you an 8 in place of a needed 3, or a 4 in place of a
needed Ace, etc. just to make you think for a split second that you
got what you needed! Clearly sadistic programmers at work, but how
can that be random?

It may be clear to YOU that programmers have manipulated the RNG to
produce certain numbers in certain situations, but it is not an
accepted fact among knowledgeable VP players.

You are being swayed in your belief by hughly subjective anecdotal
experiences. In order to have any relevance whatever, one would need
to track how many times a number OTHER than an 8, was drawn, when a
3 was needed to complete a winning hand. I believe strongly that you
would find, that over millions of hands, that an 8 did not appear
any more frequently than any other number.

If you can NOT accept this premise, and do not have a complete
disregard for your bankroll, you are foolish to continue playing VP!

Most importantly, if hands are random, how do people like George

Maloof claim to operate the "Royal Flush Capital of the World (first
at Fiesta, then at Palms). The "random" nature of video poker would
have you believe that a casino can't control how often a royal is
dealt...

That is true. In jurisdictions such as Nevada, where random dealing
is mandated, casino operators cannot control the number of royal
flushes (or any other hands). What they can and do control, is the
number of full pay and positive machines that they put on their
floor. The more of those that are available to public, the longer an
individual player's bankroll lasts. When a player can play VP for
longer periods of time, he/she is more likely to last long enough to
pop a royal. So, yes, at the Fiestas of past years, and currently
at the Palms, the VP inventory is/was more favorable than at most
other casinos, and it logically follows that this circumstance will
produce more good paying hands of of all kinds, including royals,
than are being recorded at casinos with lesser VP inventories.

I expect a lot of dispute on this subject.....

==================================================
I doubt that the amount of rebuttal to your statements will meet
your expectations. This subject has been discussed throughly, many
times, over the years of this board's existence. The randomness of
VP machines has been pretty well documented and is an accepted fact
by MOST educated VP players.

The only reason that I am posting this long response, is because
your post sounded sincere (though more than a bit misguided). If,
in a fact, I've made a misjudgement, and your questions were posted
solely to "stir to the pot", than I apologize to my fellow board
members for the mistake.

some properties or mahines give more quads or royals than others,

and that is not because they are paying 45 vs. 35 for a full house.

Looking forward to the responses!

Jeff

Au contraire! See above. That is exactly why.

~Babe~

#3

I am definitely not looking to stir the pot and yes, very sincere. I
was just looking for others opinions, and I appreciate your response
even though a bit condescending.

I'm not sure why my post was misguided, I really was just curious to
see what others thought of my observations. I apologize if this has
been debated here before; apparently it has been a while as I have
not seen it since joining.

Again, your response is appreciated, although it was more of the
textbook answer from a book. I do play VP quite a bit (I'm harrahs
diamond, etc) and follow Bob's strategy religiously. I understand the
basic premise of random numbers, but again, there are things that
seem to dispel that random nature at times.

Your argument for the Palms intrigues me. If I read it right, you
are saying that the increased pay tables mean people play longer,
correct? That would suggest that the Palms has more coin-in per
machine daily than say, Bally's, to produce more royals. I doubt
that is the case. I still can't help but believe that the Palms, or
SP, or any other location that is noted for increased RF's have some
control on how often they come up.

Guess we'll see what else is said. Thanks again.

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "jackessiebabe" <jackessiebabe@...>
wrote:

>>>How does the RNG work, i.e. does it select individual cards
or does it select the actual 10 cards that make up the hand?

The RNG is nothing more or less than an electronic program which
is designed to generate numbers. It is said to move at lightening
speed, and select hundreds of numbers per second.

In Video Poker each number corresponds to a group of 10 cards which
comprise a hand. Five cards for the dealt hand and five cards that
can be drawn.

The RNG has no "human chacteristics" and cannot either "favor" or
"punish" a player with winning or losing hands, under any
circumstances.

>>>As we sit and play for hours on end, it is obvious that the VP
programs have "gotcha" hands. For example, how many times does a
machine give you an 8 in place of a needed 3, or a 4 in place of a
needed Ace, etc. just to make you think for a split second that you
got what you needed! Clearly sadistic programmers at work, but how
can that be random?

It may be clear to YOU that programmers have manipulated the RNG to
produce certain numbers in certain situations, but it is not an
accepted fact among knowledgeable VP players.

You are being swayed in your belief by hughly subjective anecdotal
experiences. In order to have any relevance whatever, one would

need

to track how many times a number OTHER than an 8, was drawn, when a
3 was needed to complete a winning hand. I believe strongly that

you

would find, that over millions of hands, that an 8 did not appear
any more frequently than any other number.

If you can NOT accept this premise, and do not have a complete
disregard for your bankroll, you are foolish to continue playing

VP!

===================================================
>>>Most importantly, if hands are random, how do people like George
Maloof claim to operate the "Royal Flush Capital of the World

(first

at Fiesta, then at Palms). The "random" nature of video poker

would

have you believe that a casino can't control how often a royal is
dealt...

That is true. In jurisdictions such as Nevada, where random dealing
is mandated, casino operators cannot control the number of royal
flushes (or any other hands). What they can and do control, is the
number of full pay and positive machines that they put on their
floor. The more of those that are available to public, the longer an
individual player's bankroll lasts. When a player can play VP for
longer periods of time, he/she is more likely to last long enough to
pop a royal. So, yes, at the Fiestas of past years, and currently
at the Palms, the VP inventory is/was more favorable than at most
other casinos, and it logically follows that this circumstance will
produce more good paying hands of of all kinds, including royals,
than are being recorded at casinos with lesser VP inventories.

>>>I expect a lot of dispute on this subject.....

I doubt that the amount of rebuttal to your statements will meet
your expectations. This subject has been discussed throughly, many
times, over the years of this board's existence. The randomness of
VP machines has been pretty well documented and is an accepted fact
by MOST educated VP players.

The only reason that I am posting this long response, is because
your post sounded sincere (though more than a bit misguided). If,
in a fact, I've made a misjudgement, and your questions were posted
solely to "stir to the pot", than I apologize to my fellow board
members for the mistake.

>>>some properties or mahines give more quads or royals than

others,

···

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "amjmh1" <jeffreymhayes@> wrote:
and that is not because they are paying 45 vs. 35 for a full house.

Looking forward to the responses!

Jeff

Au contraire! See above. That is exactly why.

~Babe~

#4

I understand the basic premise of random numbers, but again, there are things that seem to dispel that random nature at times. Reply: We have learned thru study, practice and experience that random produces quantifiable results that are always in conflict with our emotions which produce only unrealized expectations.For example, We used to always expect to hit a RF when holding 4 to a Royal, but random has taught us it almost never happens. I never expect to hit a RF when holding only a Kh, but random has proved it can happen. I never expected to hit a 20k RF on my first night ever of playing VP in 2004 when I had only $60 in my pocket and foolishly placed it in a $5 machine, but random allowed it to happen. Babe's response was absolutely correct and that too took us a long time to learn because our emotions had different expectations. Our best wins have come when we least expect them and our worst losses came when we expected much
more. Everyone who plays regularly will tell you they have seen just about every kind of hit, non-hit or close hit you can imagine and most love telling you about their most recent. My best is the time I was playing $1 Super Times Bonus 5 play at MGM and was dealt 4 to the RF with a 10 times bonus. You know that my emotions said “yes, it has got to happen”, but random said “no it will not” and it didn’t. By the way, all players of every game in the casino struggles with the same question was it random or not, but usually only when they are losing and almost never when they are winning.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

#5

Babe,

I have to correct 2 points.

The RNG works specifically like this:
It picks a number between 1 and 52 (or more if there are jokers). That number corresponds to a specific card in the deck which is displayed on the screen. It then picks a second number, checks to see if the number was already picked. If not, it displays the card and picks the 3rd, 4th and 5th cards. If it is an IGT or Bally machine it stops displaying cards. I believe all other manufacturers also stop at 5.
The RNG routine continues to pick and discard numbers while the player decides which, if any, cards to keep. When the Draw button is pushed if additional cards are needed they are selected as above one at a time.

It would, of course, be impossible to validate that the machine is fair if there were large numbers mapped to 10 cards at a time. And it would be completely unnecessary. The primary reason I broke with Casino Player / Strictly Slots years ago was because they continued to publish incorrect information.

Second, Maloof's slogan is puffery. No one knows if it is true or not, nor should they care. Lots of places have advertised the loosest machines, the most royals, etc. While your logic is impeccable, there is no requirement (or way of checking) that statements like these be accurate.

···

At 09:57 AM 1/10/2009, you wrote:

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "amjmh1" <jeffreymhayes@...> wrote:

>>>How does the RNG work, i.e. does it select individual cards
or does it select the actual 10 cards that make up the hand?

The RNG is nothing more or less than an electronic program which
is designed to generate numbers. It is said to move at lightening
speed, and select hundreds of numbers per second.

===================================================
>>>Most importantly, if hands are random, how do people like George
Maloof claim to operate the "Royal Flush Capital of the World (first
at Fiesta, then at Palms). The "random" nature of video poker would
have you believe that a casino can't control how often a royal is
dealt...

That is true. In jurisdictions such as Nevada, where random dealing
is mandated, casino operators cannot control the number of royal
flushes (or any other hands). What they can and do control, is the
number of full pay and positive machines that they put on their
floor. The more of those that are available to public, the longer an
individual player's bankroll lasts. When a player can play VP for
longer periods of time, he/she is more likely to last long enough to
pop a royal. So, yes, at the Fiestas of past years, and currently

#6

Bill, I defer to your much more informed knowledge of all
things RNGish. I was repeating what I had read many times.
If you advise that only 5 cards are selected initially, I
have no reason to doubt your statement.

Regarding Maloof's slogan, I also see your point. It
certainly could just be another case of truth (or fiction)
in advertising.

Since you've stated publically, that "my logic is impeccable"
as far as I'm concerned, you can say whatever you'd like
about anything. {{O:

Regards,

~Babe~

···

================================================
In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, Bill Coleman <vphobby2@...> wrote:

Babe, I have to correct 2 points.

The RNG works specifically like this: It picks a number
between 1 and 52 (or more if there are jokers). That number
corresponds to a specific card in the deck which is displayed
on the screen. It then picks a second number, checks to see
if the number was already picked. If not, it displays the
card and picks the 3rd, 4th and 5th cards. If it is an IGT or
Bally machine it stops displaying cards. I believe all other
manufacturers also stop at 5..........

Second, Maloof's slogan is puffery. No one knows if it is true
or not, nor should they care. Lots of places have advertised the
loosest machines, the most royals, etc. While your logic is
impeccable, there is no requirement (or way of checking) that
statements like these be accurate.