vpFREE2 Forums

Just how hard up is Bob Dancer?

#1

In a message dated 8/22/2004 8:53:26 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
cutearlyne13@yahoo.com writes:

Does anyone have proof that he "helped casinos choke off
opportunties", or is this just a logical extension of realizing that
the casinos are also reading his many writings, and than acting to
remove the positive VP? In other words, as with the former card
cheat who is now a casino consultant, is he now on some casino's
payroll, actively advising thewm how to rip off strategy VP players?

The answer is to your (a) or (b) is (b).

Dancer and Compton have a casino management advisory company wherefrom they
help casinos maximize profits. Bob Dancer's ethics (including lack thereof)
have been discussed intermittently for years, primarily at Skip Hughes site but
here as well.

Borrowing from elsewhere, BD's career has included some titanic struggles
with his conscience but he has always prevailed.

BTW, if this is read as a condemnation, it isn't. Everyone must abide by and
live with their OWN conscience. I've personally been enriched by purchasing
products marketed by Bob Dancer and have been fortunate enough to have gotten on
the gravy train while there was still plenty of gravy. Now there's much less
gravy and many more spoons trying to reach into the pot. Dancer is only one
cause of many that have produced that effect.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

#2

In a message dated 8/22/2004 8:53:26 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
cutearlyne13@y... writes:

> Does anyone have proof that he "helped casinos choke off
> opportunties"
>

Dancer and Compton have a casino management advisory company

wherefrom they

help casinos maximize profits. Bob Dancer's ethics (including lack

thereof)

have been discussed intermittently for years, primarily at Skip

Hughes site but

here as well.

Thanks for the info! I have only been a member of the forum for a
few months (though I've been a VP addict since the early 80's). I
will certainly review some prior posts for other discussions.
I do find it appalling that, while giving instructions to VP
students while wearing the white hat, he is advising casinos to
remove positive machines, while wearing the black hat! This is a
correct interpretation, is it not?

···

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, chiefvrwc2@a... wrote:

#3

cutearlyne13 wrote:

I do find it appalling that, while giving instructions to VP
students while wearing the white hat, he is advising casinos to
remove positive machines, while wearing the black hat! This is a
correct interpretation, is it not?

Well, cute, there's no question he's playing both sides of the fence.
But the critical question is to what end.

I won't deny that a casino operating under Compton/Dancer guidance is
less likely to roll out some of the more unlikely and unwise promos
that are an open invitation for players to walk out with boatloads of
money. Nor will I suggest that any word Dancer offers up in the ear
of a casino executive is going to benefit those who look to play 20-40
hours a week at a consistent advantage over a casino.

However, there's a strong chance that Joe Average vp player derives a
net benefit from Dancer's influence on the casino market.

In my experience (largely in AC), my most unpleasant casino encounters
aren't with savvy operators looking to clamp down on the more skilled
players. It's with a relatively unknowledgeable management who
operates out of shear paranoia that some player might find a way to
get an edge over them. They can't really figure out how a player
might do so, but they know from past experience that when they least
expect it, they'll find out after the fact that they've managed to
give away the house.

It's that type of paranoia that holds these managers back from
offering stronger vp, such as 9/6 Jacks -- games that still offer up a
modest advantage to the casino at minimum and when played by a broad
base of players can be a money maker for the casino.

···

------

I don't have any idea of the nature of Dancer's consulting work.
However, I'd expect that he offers up some real knowledge so that
casino management is working from a more enlightened perspective than
"the players are going to screw me!"

I'd think he'd suggest that basic economic theory applies in the
casino. When a player is getting a good deal, they'll expend more of
their household budget in consumption of it. And of course, there's
the competitive benefit of offering a good game.

As far as advising casinos to remove "positive" machines, I'd expect
he's rarely (if ever) made that suggestion. I don't think Coast
casinos needed any outside help in deciding to remove FPDW, and if
asked, expect Dancer would suggest that it was a poor move.

Frankly, casinos don't need any prompting to screw the player. What
they do need, and I expect that this is the crux of much of Dancer's
efforts, is to be educated that the casino can give the player a good
deal and still make out.

- Harry

#4

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "Harry Porter" <harry.porter@v...>
wrote:

In my experience (largely in AC)
  
  >Bless you, Harry, if you can find ANYTHING good to play in AC.
I've been there 4 times (but not recently) and swore off due to the
awful VP available. I now confine myself to 6 annual trips to LV
and 2 annual (summer) trips to Reno. Actually, I love the Silver
Legacy, in Reno. It's as good as anything in Nevada!

Frankly, casinos don't need any prompting to screw the player.

What

they do need, and I expect that this is the crux of much of

Dancer's

efforts, is to be educated that the casino can give the player a

good

deal and still make out.

  > Harry, I fervently hope you're correct in this. I always
considered BD my Guru, after Lenny Frome passed away. I'd hate to
think that he was trying to harm the fans who made his reputation
and fortune. I think what you say makes a lot of sense, and I
choose to believe it.
    Personally, the first 10 years that I played vp, I was a
consistent loser. Once the Frome strategy was published. and I
began to use it, my "luck" suddenly changed. When Win Poker was
born, and I got my first laptop, I became even "luckier". This is
only personal experience, of course, but I do feel that LF & BD have
saved me thousands of dollars. If for no other reason than that,
I'm grateful to them.
     Everyone is entitled to their opinion, and I feel a free forum
of this type, is invaluable. However, on reflection and review of
the various posts on this subject, I've concluded that BD wears
a "white hat" most of the time, rather than a "black hat".
     Thanks for your interesting post! Cute

···

- Harry

#5

cutearlyne13 wrote:

Bless you, Harry, if you can find ANYTHING good to play in AC.
I've been there 4 times (but not recently) and swore off due to the
awful VP available.

Well, I pretty much count myself a recreational player (and our stay
this last weekend at Borgata scored well on that front, despite a
moderate loss!)

9/6 Jacks is about as good as it gets in AC, along with a smattering
of 8/5 BP, 9/7 DB, and 9/6 DDB. It takes a little hunting in the
casino, but the Administrator here is maintaining a decent inventory
of what's to be found when it comes to JB and BP prog.

See: http://members.cox.net/vpfree/E.htm

If you haven't come across it yet, there's a Yahoo! discussion group
for AC video poker. Check out:

http://games.groups.yahoo.com/group/acvpp/

The chit-chat there'll lead to the rest of the bonus games and info on
good promos.

Harry, I fervently hope you're correct in this. I always
considered BD my Guru, after Lenny Frome passed away. I'd hate to
think that he was trying to harm the fans who made his reputation
and fortune. I think what you say makes a lot of sense, and I
choose to believe it.

As I wrote, I have no first-hand knowledge of what Compton-Dancer
serves up to the casinos. For all I know, the biggest seller might be
"50 ways to screw your player".

But Google's a wonderful thing (anyone buy into the IPO? ;), and a
search surfaced an eye-opening report on a C-D 1999 industry
presention (from none other than Tom Ski).

Here's the link (the report in 2 parts starts about half way down the
page):

http://www.twoplustwo.com/digests/otherarchive_mar99_msg.html

A cited Dancer comment that would apply to the greater share of
members here: "comps wizards like to get free rooms and meals,
willing to play break even games ii. you won't make much money on
them, but you wont lose much either, not much to worry about with them"

I have no doubt that there are some players to whom C-D is a real
threat. But on that turf, all's fair in love and war.

- Harry

#6

Here's the link (the report in 2 parts starts about half way down

the

page):

http://www.twoplustwo.com/digests/otherarchive_mar99_msg.html

A cited Dancer comment that would apply to the greater share of
members here: "comps wizards like to get free rooms and meals,
willing to play break even games ii. you won't make much money on
them, but you wont lose much either, not much to worry about with

them"

This was pretty interesting:

"Compton now says that he goes to Gambler Anonymous meetings for
research purposes. He sits quietly and listens. He says currently
that game that is...."

#7

Actually I feel Bob's personal play and his writing about the personal details which seems to show a lack of ethics and make the casinos look stupid is more to blame for the decline of good VP opportunities than his present consulting activities with Jeff Compton. I agree with Harry's post that this advice they give the casinos will help both the advantage player and the ordinary recreation player at the same time.

···

________________________________________
Jean $¢ott - Go to http://www.FrugalGambler.biz
  for VP software and strategy cards and for the
  Frugal series of books.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

#8

Since we're talking about the old guys, I want to mention the little
known Villa Crespo vp program that was, in my opinion, as good as BD.
I still have a copy running on an old Packard Bell 486. The program
was sold and maybe partly developed by Wong. Gee, we should at least
give Wong an honerable mention. So this is it.

Cheers....Jeep
.
.--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "cutearlyne13" <cutearlyne13@y...>
wrote:

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "Harry Porter" <harry.porter@v...>
wrote:
>
> In my experience (largely in AC)
  
  >Bless you, Harry, if you can find ANYTHING good to play in AC.
I've been there 4 times (but not recently) and swore off due to the
awful VP available. I now confine myself to 6 annual trips to LV
and 2 annual (summer) trips to Reno. Actually, I love the Silver
Legacy, in Reno. It's as good as anything in Nevada!
>

> Frankly, casinos don't need any prompting to screw the player.
What
> they do need, and I expect that this is the crux of much of
Dancer's
> efforts, is to be educated that the casino can give the player a
good
> deal and still make out.
>
  > Harry, I fervently hope you're correct in this. I always
considered BD my Guru, after Lenny Frome passed away. I'd hate to
think that he was trying to harm the fans who made his reputation
and fortune. I think what you say makes a lot of sense, and I
choose to believe it.
    Personally, the first 10 years that I played vp, I was a
consistent loser. Once the Frome strategy was published. and I
began to use it, my "luck" suddenly changed. When Win Poker was
born, and I got my first laptop, I became even "luckier". This is
only personal experience, of course, but I do feel that LF & BD

have

···

saved me thousands of dollars. If for no other reason than that,
I'm grateful to them.
     Everyone is entitled to their opinion, and I feel a free forum
of this type, is invaluable. However, on reflection and review of
the various posts on this subject, I've concluded that BD wears
a "white hat" most of the time, rather than a "black hat".
     Thanks for your interesting post! Cute

> - Harry

#9

-Hi there

Also, Compton and Dancer will have a booth at G2E in October. Their
booth is Compton Dancer Consulting. We know a booth doesn't come
cheap at G2E. However, they may consult with the casino and mention
to them 100% machines are good for the casino profits. Seriously that
might be true.

I really believe you all are giving Dancer & Compton too much credit.
Why would we think Bally or IGT don't have enough sense to guide the
casinos a little? Do we think the gambling properties have no people
that can add up the profits or losses in the coin box? They don't
even have to know how to add. They have computers that can do that
for them. It's a matter of reading reports at a monthly meeting. They
could do reports every day. Now, when it comes down to a FPDW someone
ran a report and found the profit was gone or profit was not enough.
Same with JOB. Someone decides the 3% to 5% casio win is not enough.
You all can take this to the bank, most of the people who run these
places are not stupid. They don't need Compton & Dancer to rescue
them.

Cheers....Jeep
.
.

In a message dated 8/22/2004 8:53:26 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
cutearlyne13@y... writes:

> Does anyone have proof that he "helped casinos choke off
> opportunties", or is this just a logical extension of realizing

that

> the casinos are also reading his many writings, and than acting

to

> remove the positive VP? In other words, as with the former card
> cheat who is now a casino consultant, is he now on some casino's
> payroll, actively advising thewm how to rip off strategy VP

players?

>

The answer is to your (a) or (b) is (b).

Dancer and Compton have a casino management advisory company

wherefrom they

help casinos maximize profits. Bob Dancer's ethics (including lack

thereof)

have been discussed intermittently for years, primarily at Skip

Hughes site but

here as well.

Borrowing from elsewhere, BD's career has included some titanic

struggles

with his conscience but he has always prevailed.

BTW, if this is read as a condemnation, it isn't. Everyone must

abide by and

live with their OWN conscience. I've personally been enriched by

purchasing

products marketed by Bob Dancer and have been fortunate enough to

have gotten on

the gravy train while there was still plenty of gravy. Now there's

much less

gravy and many more spoons trying to reach into the pot. Dancer is

only one

···

-- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, chiefvrwc2@a... wrote:

cause of many that have produced that effect.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

#10

It's interesting to note that even though it was acknowledged that
I had "commissioned" this report from TomSki (actually I just paid
his admittance fee - you know what a cheap bastard I am), CDC didn't
hold it against me and even commissioned me to some work for them a
couple of times. I felt that the players should know what was going
on at these seminars. Of course that was five years ago.

  In fact, it was instructive as to CDC's approach. I understand how
pro players would not be happy with Bob. Having one of their own
start advising the other side even while continuing to function as a
pro himself must be a little irritating. But for the regular player,
CDC has not harmed them at all, IMHO.

casinochristy@aol.com wrote:
" Couldn't it be just as likely that Bob Dancer is advising the
casinos to
  bring in more decent (positive) VP to bring in the customers??
That to me is the
  logical thing to do."

Well, It's not only likely, and logical, it's a fact.

I know of at least three instances where CDC (Compton Dancer
Consulting) has done exactly this. Their advice was to improve the
VP inventory. Of these three, one of them has been a spectacular
success, another helped turn around a failing property (but because
of management changes the inventory later backslid) and a third had
other problems (I can't say more without identifying them - although
they prefer to keep their client list quiet, it's not always that
hard to figure out. ).

Although Bob and I are competitors and obviously not always that
friendly, I think people should know the facts.

Do they try to increase the casino's bottom line? Of course. Nobody
I know of hires a consultant to degrade their business. But in fact,
as far as I know, CDC has always believed the best way to be
competitive is to give the players a decent play.

Thanks,
Skip

testpro wrote:

> Here's the link (the report in 2 parts starts about half way
down
the
> page):
>
> http://www.twoplustwo.com/digests/otherarchive_mar99_msg.html
>
>
> A cited Dancer comment that would apply to the greater share of
> members here: "comps wizards like to get free rooms and meals,
> willing to play break even games ii. you won't make much money
on
> them, but you wont lose much either, not much to worry about
with
them"

This was pretty interesting:

"Compton now says that he goes to Gambler Anonymous meetings for
research purposes. He sits quietly and listens. He says currently
that game that is...."

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