Think about it. Millionaire from video poker expertise and/or
ruthlessness. VP opportunities drying up, decides to pursue scorched-
earth policy by helping casinos choke off what opportunities remain.
Now, with 98% of good VP opportunities destroyed, the casinos have
no use or need for ol' BD any more. What DO ya do if you're ol' Bob?
Get a job? WORK for a living? NAAAH!
It's not a bad strategy, to capitalize on whatever dwindling
fame/notoriety he has, to try to sell a fiction book. Sometimes you
see an aging movie or TV star try to record some music or sell a
book under just the same circumstances, and for the same reasons.
Without having any urge whatsoever to buy, or for that matter read
it for free, I would say that BD's new effort will be equal in
writing expertise to "Million Dollar Poker", which was competently
written (or edited), but lacked narrative quality.
Just how hard up is Bob Dancer?
--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "rockofjello333"
<rockofjello333@y...> wrote:
Think about it. Millionaire from video poker expertise and/or
ruthlessness. VP opportunities drying up, decides to pursue
scorched-
earth policy by helping casinos choke off what opportunities
remain.
Does anyone have proof that he "helped casinos choke off
opportunties", or is this just a logical extension of realizing that
the casinos are also reading his many writings, and than acting to
remove the positive VP? In other words, as with the former card
cheat who is now a casino consultant, is he now on some casino's
payroll, actively advising thewm how to rip off strategy VP players?
I, personally, feel his writing, though interesting, is quite
amateurish. I would certainly NOT read his books if they dealt
with any other subject.
Finally, I believe it was inevitable that once computer generated
strategy was published showing that VP could be played with a player
advantage, that the casinos would remove thenon-profitable games.
However, if the strategies , books and columns hd never been made
available, wouldn't we all be playing VP by the "hunch" method, as
most of us did 20 years (prior to the late, great Lenny Frome?)
cutearlyne13 wrote:
... Well, I'm not going to echo cute's entire post, but here's a
direct link:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vpFREE/message/32793
I just wanted to comment I find this the most cogent contribution to
the Dancer topic to date.
- H.
--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "Harry Porter" <harry.porter@v...>
wrote:
cutearlyne13 wrote:
... Well, I'm not going to echo cute's entire post, but here's a
direct link:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vpFREE/message/32793I just wanted to comment I find this the most cogent contribution
to
the Dancer topic to date.
H
Bless your heart, Harry. You are one intelligent guy and pretty
cute yourself! Becaause of your kind words, I'll continue to post.
Best regards, Cute
···
-
cutearlyne13 wrote:
You are one intelligent guy and pretty cute yourself!
Er ... I suspect the advice that applies here is "Look before you leap"?
- H.
--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "Harry Porter" <harry.porter@v...>
wrote:
cutearlyne13 wrote:
> You are one intelligent guy and pretty cute yourself!Er ... I suspect the advice that applies here is "Look before you
leap"?
- H.
Hi Harry,
What do you know? I'm not a guy!
I always look before leaping, unless I'm atop the Empire State
Building or the Sears Tower. Than I just spread my wings, say a
prayer (to the VP Gods, of course) and try to fly.
I guess this esoteric principle could be applied to life as well as
VP.....at least, for the most part, it's worked for me.
Anyway, it's nice to hear from you. Thanks for the kind words!
C
Bob Dancer himself wrote in any article some years back that almost everyone has benefited from the public writings about expert VP. But after one person becomes skilled by using these resources, then he wants everyone to quit writing any more to help any more people.
I think this is the problem/dilemma we all face - even for the writers themselves. However, there are things advantage players CAN do or NOT DO that will help advantage VP last longer. Here is a true story that happened in the last two weeks. No name and some small facts have been changed just enough to not reveal particulars - but the basic story is true.
An advantage player - let's call him Mr. D - and his wife had been playing heavily for many many months at a locals Vegas casino where they have good promotions. But they stopped playing August 1. Around the middle of the month Mrs. D came into the casino and sought out the host and asked if he could help her collect her two bounce-back coupons that had already expired. The host said, "But you haven't been playing this month." Mrs. D said, "No, we don't like the promotions you are having this month."
I won't repeat what I heard one host tell another host later about this couple.
···
________________________________________
Jean $¢ott - Go to http://www.FrugalGambler.biz
for VP software and strategy cards and for the
Frugal series of books.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
I don't get the point on this. Are you saying they shouldn't express
their opinions about promotions they like or don't like to the casino?
Scot
···
-----Original Message-----
From: Jean Scott [mailto:QueenofCo…@…biz]
Sent: Monday, August 23, 2004 10:06 AM
To: vpFREE@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [vpFREE] Ruining VP
Bob Dancer himself wrote in any article some years back that almost
everyone has benefited from the public writings about expert VP. But
after one person becomes skilled by using these resources, then he wants
everyone to quit writing any more to help any more people.
I think this is the problem/dilemma we all face - even for the writers
themselves. However, there are things advantage players CAN do or NOT
DO that will help advantage VP last longer. Here is a true story that
happened in the last two weeks. No name and some small facts have been
changed just enough to not reveal particulars - but the basic story is
true.
An advantage player - let's call him Mr. D - and his wife had been
playing heavily for many many months at a locals Vegas casino where they
have good promotions. But they stopped playing August 1. Around the
middle of the month Mrs. D came into the casino and sought out the host
and asked if he could help her collect her two bounce-back coupons that
had already expired. The host said, "But you haven't been playing this
month." Mrs. D said, "No, we don't like the promotions you are having
this month."
I won't repeat what I heard one host tell another host later about this
couple.
________________________________________
Jean $¢ott - Go to http://www.FrugalGambler.biz
for VP software and strategy cards and for the
Frugal series of books.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
vpFREE Links: http://members.cox.net/vpfree/Links.htm
Yahoo! Groups Links
I'm with Scot on this. I don't get it either. An important detail that
was omitted is when the coupons expired. My local casino gives me some
grace on expired coupons provided I don't abuse the priviledge. That
good will was built up by my past play, not by what I'm doing this
month. People have a multitude of good reasons for not frequenting a
casino as often as the casino would like. In Vegas where casinos are
competing with each other via promotions it would seem obvious to
reasonable people that local patrons would largely base their visits
···
on promotions. The "Queen of Comps" has written about taking advantage of promotions many times. Yet these people are being dinged for exactly that?? --- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "Scot Krause" <krauseinvegas@w...> wrote:
I don't get the point on this. Are you saying they shouldn't express
their opinions about promotions they like or don't like to the casino?Scot
-----Original Message-----
From: Jean Scott [mailto:QueenofComps@f…]
Sent: Monday, August 23, 2004 10:06 AM
To: vpFREE@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [vpFREE] Ruining VPBob Dancer himself wrote in any article some years back that almost
everyone has benefited from the public writings about expert VP. But
after one person becomes skilled by using these resources, then he wants
everyone to quit writing any more to help any more people.I think this is the problem/dilemma we all face - even for the writers
themselves. However, there are things advantage players CAN do or NOT
DO that will help advantage VP last longer. Here is a true story that
happened in the last two weeks. No name and some small facts have been
changed just enough to not reveal particulars - but the basic story is
true.An advantage player - let's call him Mr. D - and his wife had been
playing heavily for many many months at a locals Vegas casino where they
have good promotions. But they stopped playing August 1. Around the
middle of the month Mrs. D came into the casino and sought out the host
and asked if he could help her collect her two bounce-back coupons that
had already expired. The host said, "But you haven't been playing this
month." Mrs. D said, "No, we don't like the promotions you are having
this month."I won't repeat what I heard one host tell another host later about this
couple.
________________________________________
Jean $¢ott - Go to http://www.FrugalGambler.biz
for VP software and strategy cards and for the
Frugal series of books.[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
vpFREE Links: http://members.cox.net/vpfree/Links.htm
Yahoo! Groups Links
--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "Jean Scott" <QueenofComps@f...>
wrote:
Bob Dancer himself wrote in any article some years back that
almost everyone has benefited from the public writings about expert
VP. But after one person becomes skilled by using these resources,
then he wants everyone to quit writing any more to help any more
people.
The trouble I have with BD is that his dissemination of VP info to
the casinos was far from passive--he actually fingered dozens of
advantage players and helped the casinos identify and bar them. This
goes FAR beyond providing statistics about EV and the cost of
promotions and such. If someone had done this to HIM in his salad
days he would have been furious, and I doubt that he would have been
forgiving to the "turncoat" even if given the blithe explanation
that said person was just trying to use his knowledge to make a
living.
BTW, Jean, I also happen to have heard from several sources that YOU
(and Brad) were on the edge of being barred from some or all
casinos, but the consensus was that because of your published book
(s), TV spots, etc., there might be too much adverse publicity. Your
being a saintly grandmother also helps--I'm sure they had no trouble
bouncing all the 37-year-old divorced chainsmoking males with greasy
hair.
An advantage player - let's call him Mr. D - and his wife had
been playing heavily for many many months at a locals Vegas casino
where they have good promotions. But they stopped playing August
1. Around the middle of the month Mrs. D came into the casino and
sought out the host and asked if he could help her collect her two
bounce-back coupons that had already expired. The host said, "But
you haven't been playing this month." Mrs. D said, "No, we don't
like the promotions you are having this month."
I don't see what's wrong with this attitude:
1. Casino, in order to attract players, devises promotion
2. Players come in, PRESUMABLY BECAUSE OF THE PROMOTION (given that
they hadn't played there, or played as much there, before)
3. Players play heavily while promo is in effect
4. Promo stops
5. Players stop playing
6. DUH!
Of COURSE casinos want to view promotions as a way to get players in
the front door with a view to KEEPING these players once they see
what a wonderful experience it is to play at Plywood Palace compared
to the other thirty-seven nearby casinos, blah, blah. In REALITY,
you or I wouldn't set foot in the Palace UNLESS there was some kind
of incentive to do so. Remove the incentive and we go up the street
to the Golden Squid, where they're giving away free straitjackets
with every four-to-a-royal. If the casino hosts expect anything
different in this competitive market, then they're truly naive.
--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "rockofjello333"
<rockofjello333@y...> wrote:
The trouble I have with BD is that his dissemination of VP info to
the casinos was far from passive--he actually fingered dozens of
advantage players and helped the casinos identify and bar them.
This
goes FAR beyond providing statistics about EV and the cost of
promotions and such. If someone had done this to HIM in his salad
days he would have been furious, and I doubt that he would have
been
forgiving to the "turncoat" even if given the blithe explanation
that said person was just trying to use his knowledge to make a
living.
I've heard substantially the same story that you note here, off and
on, for the past couple years. Yet, I've never run into anyone who
claims/admits to be one of these victims. Nor has anyone ever cited
for certain (is secondhand info ever certain?) a person whom he/she
knows to be such a victim. I'm wondering if perhaps this is one of
those myths that has taken on a life of its own. Mind you, I'm not
suggesting that the story is or isn't true. I clearly don't know.
As for BD, I certainly wouldn't be surprised either way.
BTW, hasn't anybody else ever found it ironically amusing that BD is
the "million dollar vp guy," when as a matter of simple fact, it was
Shirley who landed the biggest scores? Without her good fortune,
there wasn't even a half million dollar year, yet it's BD who has
danced his way into the spots.
Pete
Perhaps I wasn't clear in some of my recent posts.
First, the "abuse of promotions" post was talking about locals who can play almost every day - and many on the lists do play heavily and regularly. It would not be a problem for out-of-towners, even those who would always come in for every promotion at any one casino. That's what the casino wants out-of-towners to do - they send them invitations to do just that.
Yes, I do encourage people to take advantage of promotions - but remember I do most of my writing for a much larger audience than on these VP lists. The casual recreational gambler NEEDS prompting to take advantage of promotions more to boost their total EV. On the other hand, when I write posts to the lists, I am writing to, as a whole, more "hard-core" players, including a lot of advantage players. Now my emphasis is a little different - I even have to "rein in" some enthusiasm for max EV at times.
Yes, we can take advantage of promotions - that's where ALL of our personal VP profit comes from - slot club benefits and promotions. However, there is a way to do that so as not to rub casino executives noses in the dirt.
Casinos, especially ones that deal with locals a lot rather than mostly tourists, do get to know their customers a little more personally. If I talk to a host once or twice a week, he/she will know my "patterns" more than if I were a tourists seen a couple of times a years, or even every several months. Let me assure you, most local casino executives know the regular players, especially if they play big or/and put in long hours several days a week. We are not just numbers to them - they know our names and they talk about us to each other, and this doesn't just mean the players they see on TV or who write books. They notice if we play only machines where we have an advantage or only when a progressive is high, or only during a good promotion.
These executives might "tolerate" us if we are nice to the employees, are considerate of the rights of other customers, tip well, and don't hurt them too badly financially. But when the advantage player gets cocky or makes unreasonable requests, they start wondering if their casino might be better off without these people. You can be too greedy.
The casino that I wrote about in my "story" has been experimenting with different types of promotions. No, the one this month isn't a good for advantage players who are trying to squeeze out every bit of EV they can. However, it IS better for the "little guy" who plays regularly on sub-100% machines and usually doesn't get a very good shot at the promotional value. An advantage player has every right to not play this month, but don't go in asking for special privileges and then suggest or reinforce the executives belief that their former promotions may have been too tilted toward the very players that aren't profitable by telling them why they aren't playing. I heard the host who was telling this story say about this presumptuous player, "The nerve of them - they're out of here."
Sometimes it is better, if you want to keep playing at one casino, to not always stick to the "max EV" principle. I don't mean you have to play slots - although I know some smart advantage players who do this wisely and the future advantage is worth a lot more than the small cost in the present. We kept playing this month at this "story" casino, maybe not as often as other months, but whenever we went to collect our bounce-back cash. (Fortunately it is not a daily-average system.) It was still a positive play - a "good" one even, although not the "best" one they had ever had.
The person in the story would have been better off to play at least a little bit at a still-positive play before they asked if they could collect expired coupons. I happen to know these players do live quite a ways from this casino. If the bounce-back wasn't high enough to cover a special trip, then perhaps they should have just foregone that BB amount. Anyone could not come into a casino for a month and no one would think anything about it - or, if they did, might assume they were on vacation or something. However, this couple not only "educated" a casino executive, but has ruined any chance they have for future considerations, and I imagine they will have some lucrative top-level benefits taken away from them if they aren't barred outright.
And they didn't just ruin it for themselves - this is the sort of thing that ruins things for all advantage players. Too often a casino, instead of "punishing" just the abusers, takes the easy way out and decides to just change the machines or change the promotions. How many times have advantage players educated casino executives by actions like this. We must be VERY careful what we say to casino employees. I know some advantage players who are very buddy-buddy with casino executives - but you still must be careful what you discuss with them. What you tell them as a friend may travel to other ears on executives who are not so friendly.
This reminds me of someone - a nice guy and one I consider a friend - who saw me in a casino recently and told me that he had just been talking to an acquaintance who was complaining that my writing was bad for advantage VP. I thought it was ironic that while this person was telling me this he was playing two VP machines just as fast as he could because there was a drawing at this casino this day and you got entries for every so many points. I think this sort of action was more damaging, especially in a small casino like this where his playing style was very noticeable, that my general advice to casual recreational players.
By the way, someone said that I wasn't barred once from a casino which was on a barring kick because of my writing. This may or may not be true - I got the story second or third-hand but a casino executive was quoted as saying, when a disgruntled kicked-out player pointed out that he was kicking out other people, but not Jean Scott, "You don't kick out players who buy printer's ink by the barrel." Unfortunately not all casinos subscribe to that policy - the Orleans started their massive mailings cutoff for advantage players with my name. The Suncoast followed soon after. The Gold Coast was slower but finally climbed on the same bandwagon a few months ago. Smart casino executives know I am good for business - because I bring in a lot more business than a few advantage players will cost.
Advantage players just must look at things from the casinos point of view at least part of the time; they are a profit-making business, not a home for spoiled rude brats. As Brad says so many times, if he were running a casino and wanted to make money he wouldn't let me play in it. I'm glad he doesn't own a casino!!!
···
________________________________________
Jean $¢ott - Go to http://www.FrugalGambler.biz
for VP software and strategy cards and for the
Frugal series of books.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
view at least part of the time; they are a profit-making business, not
a home for spoiled rude brats. As Brad says so many times, if he were
running a casino and wanted to make money he wouldn't let me play in
it. I'm glad he doesn't own a casino!!!
If I ran a casino I would let you play, but I'd make sure to get full
promotional value out of you and I would keep close control on your
winnings, as long as you bring in more business than you cost, I win,
same as any other business promotion, if you're chasing away players
or locking up machines or being bad for business, you're gone
Giving away a bonus for four of a kinds or cashback costs me, but if I
get more business out of it, it's a net win
Jean Scott or any other advantage player is just another casino
promotion
Another advantage to having a known advantage player in the casino is
that they will probably point out your mistakes (plays with too much
player advantage) allowing the casino to correct them before losing
too much
···
--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "Jean Scott" <QueenofComps@f...> wrote:
Advantage players just must look at things from the casinos point of
Interesting with all the replies to this post, not one addressed the
poster's original inquiry about Bob's new book "Sex, Lies, and Video
Poker". Bob likes to write. I don't see anything wrong with
expanding one's horizons by venturing into fiction. It takes a lot
of time and effort to write a book and get it published. I seriously
doubt Bob wrote this book for the money. The hourly profit on this
novel will certainly pale in comparison to what he makes in his
other activities. TomSki
--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "rockofjello333"
<rockofjello333@y...> wrote:
It's not a bad strategy, to capitalize on whatever dwindling
fame/notoriety he has, to try to sell a fiction book.