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Joker Poker

While at MGM Grand Detroit this past weekend, I watched a person
playing Joker Poker. I became interested in the game. I have been
practicing on some recently purchased Frugal Video Poker. Haven't
been doing too badly but for the life of me, I can't understand the
following hands....

Joker, 6 Diamonds, 10 Club, 9 Heart, 4 Spade

Frugal says to hold Joker and 6 Diamonds

Second hand:

7 diamond, 2 diamond, 4 heart, 9 spade, joker

Frugal says to hold 7 diamond, joker

Why not a face card and joker if available, and why a 6 and a 7 in
the above hands. If there is an explanation in Frugal, I haven't
located it yet. The strategy cards are wonderful but it still
doesn't answer why to hold the above.

I really enjoy this group.

Is this standard 4-joker poker? If so:

Joker, 6 Diamonds, 10 Club, 9 Heart, 4 Spade
Frugal says to hold Joker and 6 Diamonds

WinPoker says hold just the joker (then joker-T, joker-9, then joker-6)

7 diamond, 2 diamond, 4 heart, 9 spade, joker
Frugal says to hold 7 diamond, joker

WinPoker says hold just the joker (then joker-T, joker-9, then joker-7)

77,
scottro

···

-----
  From: rubie4ever
  To: vpFREE@yahoogroups.com
  Sent: Wednesday, April 23, 2003 9:53 PM
  Subject: [vpFREE] Joker Poker

  While at MGM Grand Detroit this past weekend, I watched a person
  playing Joker Poker. I became interested in the game. I have been
  practicing on some recently purchased Frugal Video Poker. Haven't
  been doing too badly but for the life of me, I can't understand the
  following hands....

  Joker, 6 Diamonds, 10 Club, 9 Heart, 4 Spade

  Frugal says to hold Joker and 6 Diamonds

  Second hand:

  7 diamond, 2 diamond, 4 heart, 9 spade, joker

  Frugal says to hold 7 diamond, joker

  Why not a face card and joker if available, and why a 6 and a 7 in
  the above hands. If there is an explanation in Frugal, I haven't
  located it yet. The strategy cards are wonderful but it still
  doesn't answer why to hold the above.

  I really enjoy this group.

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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

While at MGM Grand Detroit this past weekend, I watched a person
playing Joker Poker. I became interested in the game. I have been
practicing on some recently purchased Frugal Video Poker. Haven't
been doing too badly but for the life of me, I can't understand the
following hands....

Joker, 6 Diamonds, 10 Club, 9 Heart, 4 Spade

Frugal says to hold Joker and 6 Diamonds

Second hand:

7 diamond, 2 diamond, 4 heart, 9 spade, joker

Frugal says to hold 7 diamond, joker

Why not a face card and joker if available, and why a 6 and a 7 in
the above hands. If there is an explanation in Frugal, I haven't
located it yet. The strategy cards are wonderful but it still
doesn't answer why to hold the above.

I really enjoy this group.

Holding a "middle" card from 5 through 10 with a joker is better than
holding a jack or queen mainly due to the greater possibility of
making a straight, since that's worth more than the possibility of
making a wild royal. When I first discovered that one card should be
held with the joker instead of just the joker, the intuitive way to
look at it that made it the most clear for me was to think that if
only the joker is held, the first card drawn might match a card that
was discarded, making 5 of a kind impossible. But if one card is held
with the joker, the last 3 cards can always make 5 of a kind.

Kings or better joker is probably my favorite strategy, due to all its
exceptions to rules. Occasionally, the best play is to hold just the
joker, for one.

Why not a face card and joker if available, and why a 6 and a 7 in
the above hands. If there is an explanation in Frugal, I haven't
located it yet. The strategy cards are wonderful but it still
doesn't answer why to hold the above.

I really enjoy this group.

I am assuming Kings or better version....

It is surprising that Joker - 7 is better than a lone Joker.
After all, discarding 4 increases the chances to catch a
K or A for a push.

Even a holding like Joker - Q seems better, since it
preserves the wild RF.

However, the Joker-7 hand makes a lot more straights and
straight flushes than a hand like Joker-Q. Also, if you
toss all 4 cards, you can ONLY catch an A or K to be
better off. If you catch a 2,3,4,5,9,T,J, or Q to replace
it, you will be worse off. Just imagine drawing 1 card
and stopping for a moment to look at the new hand.

There is another argument against holding cards like
9,5,and T. Some of the straights these cards make
contain an Ace or a King. This does not change the
number of straights you can make, but it does reduce
the number of high pair hands you can make.

Try this....

Open winpoker and look at the results when you
hold Joker-9 from Joker,2,3,4,9

Now look at the results when you hold
Joker-T from Joker,2,3,4,T.

You should see the same number of straights
for each. The total number of straight flushes
for each should also be the same, as long as
you consider wild royals to be straght flushes.
However, the Joker-T hand will have fewer high
pairs.

Here is why....

Suppose your draw has 4 different ranks and no
flush comes and one card is an Ace. When you
start with Joker-9, you will ALWAYS wind up with
exactly a high pair when this happens.

For example..... Joker,9,J,Q,A.

But, with Joker-Ten, drawing J,Q,A produces
a straight. So, there are fewer ways to wind
up with a pair of aces.

Now for a tough quiz....

Why does Joker-Ace make more straight flushes
than Joker-King?

QZ

Why does Joker-Ace make more straight flushes
than Joker-King?

QZ

And straights.

When to keep a king with a joker over an ace with a joker is one of
the many exceptions to rules (the rule being because of the extra
straights and straight flushes that the ace makes) in this game. For
years, I thought it was only when the ace had a flush penalty and the
king didn't have worse straight penalties than the ace. Only recently
did I discover the other type.

>Why does Joker-Ace make more straight flushes
>than Joker-King?
>
>QZ

And straights.

This was not an error of omission. I left it out on purpose.

It is much easier to understand the situation if you just focus
on straight flushes. Once one understands what is happening
with straight flushes, one can then easily expand the idea to
cover all straights. Also, when you focus on straight
flushes, you can ignore the other discards completely. When we
consider all straights, then Joker-A does not always make more
straights than Joker-K.

When to keep a king with a joker over an ace with a joker is one of
the many exceptions to rules (the rule being because of the extra
straights and straight flushes that the ace makes) in this game.

Yes, but that is more or less a new issue.

For years, I thought it was only when the ace had a flush penalty and the
king didn't have worse straight penalties than the ace. Only recently
did I discover the other type.

I don't know all these rules, but I do know that sometimes you hold
Joker-Ace even if it has a suit penalty. If there is a high straight
penalty, but no low straight penalty, then Joker-Ace is correct.

As,Kd,8c,7s,Joker. Keep Joker-King
As,Kd,9c,8s,Joker. Keep Joker-Ace
As,Kd,8s,5h,Joker. Keep Joker-King

Maybe someday I will learn the QsJs and QsTs rules. I only
recently became aware that penalties can make the correct
play to toss 5. It is a mess.

For example, with a 4000 RF:

Qs,Jh,Ts,6h,5s Keep QTs
Qs,Jh,Ts,6h,2s Keep none.

On second thought, maybe I won't learn this.

QZ

Maybe someday I will learn the QsJs and QsTs rules. I only
recently became aware that penalties can make the correct
play to toss 5. It is a mess.

For example, with a 4000 RF:

Qs,Jh,Ts,6h,5s Keep QTs
Qs,Jh,Ts,6h,2s Keep none.

On second thought, maybe I won't learn this.

QZ

I once tried to memorize all of these, also, but never quite made it.

This type of hand brings to mind an area where I disagree with the
purist approach to strategy, such as Bob Dancer's approach. It's
contradictory to take into account bankroll limitations in deciding
what game to play but then not take fluctuation into account in
deciding how to play hands. What game any given bankroll can afford
is often considered to be a gray area, but how to play QTs in joker
poker, for example, is generally considered cut and dried, even though
one draw involves more fluctuation than the other. For the same
reason that I wouldn't play full pay $1 joker with a $5000 bankroll, I
wouldn't draw to QTs when, on average, hitting the extra $4000 royal
would cost me a wildly fluctuating additional, say, $3950 to hit.

Quad Zilla wrote:

Now for a tough quiz....

Why does Joker-Ace make more straight flushes
than Joker-King?

This is because when you hold Joker-King and subsequently form a
straight flush, one of the three draw cards is fixed as a nine (the
others selected from 10 to Q). A "straight flush" in absence of a
nine in this case is actually a royal flush.

However, with Joker-Ace, the straight flush combinations involved all
use the Ace as a low card. In this case, all three of the draw cards
are variable (within the range of 2 to 5, of course). Thus, more
available combinations.

- Harry