vpFREE2 Forums

Joker Games

I am updating “More Frugal Gambling” and it will come out as an eBook when I finish the update. I need a little help with the Joker Poker section because we never have played that game. (Page 113 if you have the book.) I don’t know what games are still around, what updates are needed. So I would appreciate any input anyone can give me. I know a lot has changed in the VP world in the last 11 years.

Joker Wild (JW, also called Joker Poker)

  There are two main types of single-joker games. The easiest way to distinguish between the two is to look at the last paying combination on the paytable. If the lowest hand is kings or better, this is the game, sometimes called Vegas Joker Wild (although it’s found in other places), which has a positive-EV full-pay version (100.65%—game #18). Occasionally, a super-pay version (101%—game #19) is found—these pay 4700 with five coins played for a natural royal flush. More frequently, though, you’ll run into low-pay versions of Joker Wild that run in the 96%-98% return range. Once thought to be an endangered species, good

Joker games have started to appear in multi-lines and multi-game machines.

  These Joker Wild games have difficult strategies and are among the most volatile of VP variations, but good versions can pay the serious VP student well. Casual players tend to like the game because of the wild card, and it offers a couple of intermediate jackpot hands: the wild royal and 5-of-a-kind. In addition, the straight flush comes along fairly frequently and pays 250 for 5 coins just like in JoB, where it’s much more rare. Some feel that JW is less boring than Deuces.

  The second type of Joker Poker has 2 pair as the bottom-paying hand. It’s often called Atlantic City Joker Wild, because it’s one of the most common games in that city, although it’s occasionally seen in other jurisdictions. On this game, a royal flush is counted as merely a straight flush and the top-pay jackpot is 5-of-a-kind. It’s popular because you hit the top jackpot much more often than on other VP games, on average about every 11,000 hands versus the 40,000 for Jacks or Better. However, the severe drain between jackpots shows up in the low EV of 97.19% on the best pay schedule (game #20). Sometimes there’s a progressive on these games, which raises the EV, but also raises the already high volatility. And, of course, there are decreased paybacks on many schedules, with much lower EVs.

  There’s also a Double Joker game in Atlantic City, with varying pay schedules. Those with EVs close to or over 100%, however, are becoming very difficult to find.

For anyone who has the book, I would appreciate any updated information about All American (page 115) and Pick “Em (page 116). We haven’t played or even looked at either of these games for years. I believe Pick ‘Em has a new name, but I forget what it is. Are there any old Pick ‘Em’s even left???

You may send me your input privately – or put on the list if you think it would be of general interest.

···

Jean $¢ott, Frugal Gambler
http://queenofcomps.com/
You can read my blog at
http://jscott.lvablog.com/

VPFree2 database confirms Mohegan Sun in CT has FPPE from $1 to $25.

And the game “you forgot” the name of was called on Skip’s board:

SLIM PICKEMS.

The new machines call it “Pick-A-Pair.”

···

On Sat, Jul 5, 2014 at 8:54 PM, haa…@…com [vpFREE] <vpF…@…com> wrote:

VPFree2 database confirms Mohegan Sun in CT has FPPE from $1 to $25.

And the game “you forgot” the name of was called on Skip’s board:

SLIM PICKEMS.

The one I miss is deuces/jokers... had some great sessions with that one.

Best Regards,

Mike

···

On 7/5/2014 9:13 PM, 'Queen of Comps' queenofcomps@cox.net [vpFREE] wrote:

I am updating “More Frugal Gambling” and it will come out as an eBook when I finish the update. I need a little help with the Joker Poker section because we never have played that game. (Page 113 if you have the book.) I don’t know what games are still around, what updates are needed. So I would appreciate any input anyone can give me. I know a lot has changed in the VP world in the last 11 years.
*/Joker Wild (JW, also called Joker Poker) /*

There are two main types of single-joker games. The easiest way to distinguish between the two is to look at the last paying combination on the paytable. If the lowest hand is kings or better, this is the game, sometimes called Vegas Joker Wild (although it’s found in other places), which has a positive-EV full-pay version (100.65%—game #18). Occasionally, a super-pay version (101%—game #19) is found—these pay 4700 with five coins played for a natural royal flush. More frequently, though, you’ll run into low-pay versions of Joker Wild that run in the 96%-98% return range. Once thought to be an endangered species, good Joker games have started to appear in multi-lines and multi-game machines.

These Joker Wild games have difficult strategies and are among the most volatile of VP variations, but good versions can pay the serious VP student well. Casual players tend to like the game because of the wild card, and it offers a couple of intermediate jackpot hands: the wild royal and 5-of-a-kind. In addition, the straight flush comes along fairly frequently and pays 250 for 5 coins just like in JoB, where it’s much more rare. Some feel that JW is less boring than Deuces.

The second type of Joker Poker has 2 pair as the bottom-paying hand. It’s often called Atlantic City Joker Wild, because it’s one of the most common games in that city, although it’s occasionally seen in other jurisdictions. On this game, a royal flush is counted as merely a straight flush and the top-pay jackpot is 5-of-a-kind. It’s popular because you hit the top jackpot much more often than on other VP games, on average about every 11,000 hands versus the 40,000 for Jacks or Better. However, the severe drain between jackpots shows up in the low EV of 97.19% on the best pay schedule (game #20). Sometimes there’s a progressive on these games, which raises the EV, but also raises the already high volatility. And, of course, there are decreased paybacks on many schedules, with much lower EVs.

There’s also a Double Joker game in Atlantic City, with varying pay schedules. Those with EVs close to or over 100%, however, are becoming very difficult to find.

For anyone who has the book, I would appreciate any updated information about All American (page 115) and Pick “Em (page 116). We haven’t played or even looked at either of these games for years. I believe Pick ‘Em has a new name, but I forget what it is. Are there any old Pick ‘Em’s even left???

You may send me your input privately – or put on the list if you think it would be of general interest.

Mohegan Sun does in fact have the games that Haaljo posted. Don’t know if its relevant to your book but the Sun does not give players any direct comp points ( dollars) for play on these games.

AC used to have 9/5 Dbl.Joker . Now they offer 8/5 .

Ballys AC used to offer 8/6/4 Dbl. Joker which is a 99% game. Haven’t played there in a long time so I’m not sure if they still offer it.

Dear: Queen of Comps

“Pick em” is still used for Bally products. IGT calls this game “Pick a Pair” and there are other games than the standard 99.95% in formats such as deuces wild, double bonus, etc.

Joker two pair in the 20-10-6-5 (99.92%) version is still a somewhat common game and often the highest payback game in casinos outside of Nevada. (When Frugal VP first came out, I contacted Mr. Wolf to have him fix a bug which caused this game to show the wrong EV.)

When Bob dancer and Liam daily asked a number of years ago whether another joker game could use their strategy cards, I suggested this game and they did come out with a strategy card for it.

I have never been to Atlantic City (I live in the Chicago Area and met you briefly at one of the shows in Rosemont. My mom used to work for Bally but not the slot machine division.) but I think 9-5 and 8-6 Double Joker are pretty much dead and have a very difficult strategy.

Howard W. Stern

···

On Sunday, July 6, 2014 9:21 AM, “lfc…@…net [vpFREE]” <vpF…@…com> wrote:

Mohegan Sun does in fact have the games that Haaljo posted. Don’t know if its relevant to your book but the Sun does not give players any direct comp points ( dollars) for play on these games.

AC used to have 9/5 Dbl.Joker . Now they offer 8/5 .

Ballys AC used to offer 8/6/4 Dbl. Joker which is a 99% game. Haven’t played there in a long time so I’m not sure if they still offer it.

There are 3-4 Pick Em Poker games left in Atlantic City at Borgata; I haven’t seen them anywhere else; although the pay table remains the same, they must have changed out the chips as nothing comes up over 3 of a kind during an hour’s worth of play.

I agree Mike - I really miss that game. I used to play it at the Hard Rock center bar, and was so bummed when they got rid of it. Anyone know where to find this game?

Many thanks for all the valuable input, both here and in private e-mails. Some questions I still have:

  1. Would it be correct to say that Double Joker games, which used to be popular in A.C., are not common any more and, if found, are the lower EV variety?

  2. Howard said: “Joker two pair in the 20-10-6-5 (99.92%) version is still a somewhat common game and often the highest payback game in casinos outside of Nevada.”

I looked up this game on Wizardofodds site (http://wizardofodds.com/games/video-poker/tables/joker-poker/two-pair-or-better/
and realized that it is not at all like the AC two-pair game which has 5-of-a-kind as the top jackpot. I didn’t know there were 2 kinds of 2-pair games. Is this the schedule being referred to– 1,2,5,6,10,30,50,50,100, 1000/5000? If so that means that I have to re-write that paragraph about 2-pair on page 114, telling about the two different kinds 2-pair games. In fact, this one seems available enough (on vpFREE2 at least) that I think I should delete Super-pay JW (4700 royal, which is practically extinct) on the Joker Wild chart (page 115) and put this schedule in its place. Do you think that would be the best thing to do???

I have decided to delete the sections on All American and Pick “Em since this book section is for “major” games, which neither of these are any more.

···

Jean $¢ott, Frugal Gambler
http://queenofcomps.com/
You can read my blog at
http://jscott.lvablog.com/

From: mailto:vpF…@…com

Sent: Sunday, July 06, 2014 8:07 AM

To: vpF…@…com

Subject: [SPAM]Re: [vpFREE] Re: Joker Games

Dear: Queen of Comps

“Pick em” is still used for Bally products. IGT calls this game “Pick a Pair” and there are other games than the standard 99.95% in formats such as deuces wild, double bonus, etc.

l is still a somewhat common game and often the highest payback game in casinos outside of Nevada. (When Frugal VP first came out, I contacted Mr. Wolf to have him fix a bug which caused this game to show the wrong EV.)

When Bob dancer and Liam daily asked a number of years ago whether another joker game could use their strategy cards, I suggested this game and they did come out with a strategy card for it.

I have never been to Atlantic City (I live in the Chicago Area and met you briefly at one of the shows in Rosemont. My mom used to work for Bally but not the slot machine division.) but I think 9-5 and 8-6 Double Joker are pretty much dead and have a very difficult strategy.

Howard W. Stern

On Sunday, July 6, 2014 9:21 AM, “lfc…@…net [vpFREE]” <vpF…@…com> wrote:

Mohegan Sun does in fact have the games that Haaljo posted. Don’t know if its relevant to your book but the Sun does not give players any direct comp points ( dollars) for play on these games.

AC used to have 9/5 Dbl.Joker . Now they offer 8/5 .

Ballys AC used to offer 8/6/4 Dbl. Joker which is a 99% game. Haven’t played there in a long time so I’m not sure if they still offer it.

All Borgata or for that matter all of Atl.City PEm is short pay.

As far as that chip statement you made. Nonsense!!