vpFREE2 Forums

It was not on the bonus round

#1

I don't believe that ANYONE (casino slot director excluded) can know if the
paytables are good or not. The appearance of the Devils is slot machine-like.
That is, there is not enough information to determine the total return of the
game, no matter what the displayed VP paytable is. The cards must be dealt
randomly, most of us understand what that means. But the Devils can appear at any
random (but unknown average frequency) intervals. Since the "base" game is
always horrible, it is probably wrong to assume that there are ANY mappings for
the Devils which result in a playable (near/over 100%) game. The best one might
hope for is a 97-98% game with HUGE variance. Realistically, I would assume
the total return is comparable to the TR of the same denom slots in the same
casino.

Brian

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In a message dated 8/4/2004 4:27:56 PM Pacific Standard Time,
a-p@sympatico.ca writes:

They had these machines (triple trouble bonus poker) at the Las Vegas Hilton,
in the Spacequest casino. I have no idea if the paytables are good or not.The
last time I was there was in February.

Regards
A.P.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

#2

bjaygold wrote:

I don't believe that ANYONE (casino slot director excluded) can know
if the paytables are good or not (said in reference to Triple
Trouble). The appearance of the Devils is slot machine-like.

I fully concur. The casino likely selects the desired ER on these
games exactly in the same manner that it does any other slot machine,
and that in turn drives the frequency and pattern with which the
devils pop up that trigger the bonus feature.

Any time there's a non-skill feature in a vp game for which the
addition to ER can't be immediately discerned from the information
displayed, you can bet that the game has a very poor return. There's
no incentive to the casino to do otherwise. They rely upon the simple
novelty of the games, and the pseudo slot machine play nature, to
attract players.

That said, I know of knowlegable players who routinely examine these
games when they first appear on the casino floor. They'll anecdotally
measure the random event frequency to roughly judge the ER value.
It's happened on more than one occasion that the casino has
unintentionally set the machines higher than they had intended.

- Harry

#3

Any time there's a non-skill feature in a vp game for which the
addition to ER can't be immediately discerned from the information
displayed, you can bet that the game has a very poor return. There's
no incentive to the casino to do otherwise. They rely upon the simple
novelty of the games, and the pseudo slot machine play nature, to
attract players.

What about Super times pay? I read that the ER for the 9/6 JB is slightly
higher than a "regular" 9/6 game. The "times pay" card seems to be random
so I assume someone got the payback info from the manufacturer.

Sylvia

#4

I wrote:

> Any time there's a non-skill feature in a vp game for which the
> addition to ER can't be immediately discerned from the information
> displayed, you can bet that the game has a very poor return.

Sylvia replied:

What about Super times pay? I read that the ER for the 9/6 JB is
slightly higher than a "regular" 9/6 game. The "times pay" card
seems to be random so I assume someone got the payback info from the
manufacturer.

That's an excellent question. Were it not for the availability of
additional information (the IGT promo lit or Dancer's article), this
would be a game I'd avoid.

Before accounting for the bonus multiplier, the base return on these
machines is cut by 1/6 since you're wagering 6 coins but only
receiving a 5 coin paytable return on any hand (in absence of a
bonus). That makes for a lot of return (around 17%) that has to be
compensated by the bonus, and I would want tons of confidence I could
expect that.

If the bonus frequency is variable (that is, it can be adjusted by the
casino), then I'd bet on the casino setting it to the lower values
available -- providing for a very subpar game.

Fortunately both the manufacturer and Dancer's article indicate that
the bonus is fixed (expected about once in 15 hands). Further, the
distribution of bonuses (they run 2x to 10x) are fixed. The frequency
and distribution is the same for all games as well. The addition to
expected return of the bonus in most cases is just under .3% (over and
above the 17% necessary to compensate for the payout cut).

Armed with this info, it's possible to confidently approach the game
knowing what you're getting into.

However, in the case of Double Trouble, and many other vp games with
unusual bonuses (Goldmine BP comes to mind as another example), bonus
frequency is a variable that can be set by the casino. As a player
you have no idea what you're looking at unless you, or someone else,
puts the machine through a large number of trials - recording bonus
frequency and amount.
  
For these games, unless I have advance information otherwise, I'm
satisfied that the casino sets the bonus fequency very low. (More
precisely, the casino actually selects ER, which drives the displayed
paytable and an associated bonus frequency.)

- Harry