vpFREE2 Forums

Is VP a zero-sum game? (was penalty cards)

cdfsrule wrote (snip):

Now VP is NOT a zero-sum 2 player game.

That statement is true only if the IRS is considered to be involved in the game. Other than personal income taxes, all exchanges of values are between the player and the casino, with nothing being added or subtracted by an outside party, so video poker IS a zero sum two-player game.

If taxes are to be considered, then we can reduce the game's expected return by the amount of taxes, and from the player's point of view it can still be analyzed as a zero sum game.

Dan

···

--
Dan Paymar
Author of best selling book, "Video Poker - Optimum Play"
Editor/Publisher of VP newsletter "Video Poker Times"
Developer of VP analysis/trainer software "Optimum Video Poker"
Visit my web site at www.OptimumPlay.com

"Chance favors the prepared mind." -- Louis Pasteur

Good points, but the problem lies with the 2 player part. I guess I should have been more
elaborative: VP is considered a 1 player game since only 1 player requires a strategy. In
other words, the computer doesn't respond to the players actual play and it doesn't need a
strategy.

BTW, though the mixed-stragtegy game theory stuff (developed by Von Neumon, beleive)
has been known for a long time, until the recent hold-em frenzy very few talked about it.
In (heads up) hold'em it is correct, actually optimal, at times to play "randomly". What I
mean is that, for a cartain hand, the correct play may be to bluff 50% of the time and fold
50% of the time. Likewise, it would be wrong (for the same hand) to always bluff or always
fold (because your opponent would figure this out!). These kind of stratgeies pop up all
over the place. For example, in Ro Sham Bo (rock paper scissors or RPS). You see, there is
actually some skill involved in RPS-- besides being able to read your opponent. Since VP
is a single player game, this stuff doesn't really apply. That said, if your VP stratgey
depended on your current bankroll, and that strategy required a bet that could not be
made (given the current bankroll) due to machine limitations, one might be able to use a
mixed-strategey apporach to acheive better results. The mixed-strategy need not be
random, but it does need to be probablistic.

···

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, Dan Paymar <Dan@O...> wrote:

cdfsrule wrote (snip):
>Now VP is NOT a zero-sum 2 player game.

That statement is true only if the IRS is considered to be involved
in the game. Other than personal income taxes, all exchanges of
values are between the player and the casino, with nothing being
added or subtracted by an outside party, so video poker IS a zero sum
two-player game.

If taxes are to be considered, then we can reduce the game's expected
return by the amount of taxes, and from the player's point of view it
can still be analyzed as a zero sum game.

Dan

--

the casino responds to the player's actual play
it's a common newbie mistake to think they are just playing against a
machine
the game is much more complex than that, particularly today's game
where the edge is largely found in promotions
an individual plays against the casino and competes with the other
players, the casino plays against the group of players, but will
target individual players under certain circumstances

Good points, but the problem lies with the 2 player part. I guess I

should have been more

elaborative: VP is considered a 1 player game since only 1 player

requires a strategy. In

other words, the computer doesn't respond to the players actual play

and it doesn't need a

strategy.

BTW, though the mixed-stragtegy game theory stuff (developed by Von

Neumon, beleive)

has been known for a long time, until the recent hold-em frenzy very

few talked about it.

In (heads up) hold'em it is correct, actually optimal, at times to

play "randomly". What I

mean is that, for a cartain hand, the correct play may be to bluff

50% of the time and fold

50% of the time. Likewise, it would be wrong (for the same hand) to

always bluff or always

fold (because your opponent would figure this out!). These kind of

stratgeies pop up all

over the place. For example, in Ro Sham Bo (rock paper scissors or

RPS). You see, there is

actually some skill involved in RPS-- besides being able to read

your opponent. Since VP

is a single player game, this stuff doesn't really apply. That

said, if your VP stratgey

depended on your current bankroll, and that strategy required a bet

that could not be

made (given the current bankroll) due to machine limitations, one

might be able to use a

mixed-strategey apporach to acheive better results. The

mixed-strategy need not be

···

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "cdfsrule" <groups.yahoo@v...> wrote:

random, but it does need to be probablistic.

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, Dan Paymar <Dan@O...> wrote:
>
> cdfsrule wrote (snip):
> >Now VP is NOT a zero-sum 2 player game.
>
> That statement is true only if the IRS is considered to be involved
> in the game. Other than personal income taxes, all exchanges of
> values are between the player and the casino, with nothing being
> added or subtracted by an outside party, so video poker IS a zero sum
> two-player game.
>
> If taxes are to be considered, then we can reduce the game's expected
> return by the amount of taxes, and from the player's point of view it
> can still be analyzed as a zero sum game.
>
> Dan
>
> --