vpFREE2 Forums

Is video poker at CA Indian casinos fair?

#1

I don't think Frank in his radio show was referring to tight or changing
paytables or other things that could be deemed "socially" unfair. Instead, I
believe he was talking about games that deliver cards in a non random fashion
where this non randomness lowers the payback you would expect from infinate,
optimal play. I, personally, have not played enough to draw any conclusions
(although my limited results have been very poor), however, Frank wrote a book
about Video Poker, played professional for along time, and said on the radio in
the presence of Bob Dancer and a Nevada State regulator that he's played games
outside of Nevada that were unfair. That's the reason I brought up the topic.

Certainly, its in the realm of possibility that a) IGT makes machines for
certain casinos with software where payback is less than the paytable would
imply or b) casinos manipulate/replace software inside slot machines once they
receive them. I can't prove that either has ever happened and I recognize that
my poor results are not an indication.

···

________________________________
From: mikeymic <mikeymic@yahoo.com>
To: vpFREE@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Thu, March 10, 2011 10:27:24 AM
Subject: [vpFREE] Re: Is video poker at CA Indian casinos fair?

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, kelso 1600 <kelso1600@...> wrote:

If you go to the VPFree webpage, and then go to FAQ you will find a discussion
of Indian casinos. This will answer most of your questions if not all.

I'm not sure that questioning the fairness of Indian casinos is relevant. But I
can see why people think that way. There is the implication that casinos will
cheat players unless (or until) they are caught. And, since Indian casinos are
less monitored, BEWARE!

But, it's like trying to solve a crime where the evidence is always hidden from
you. Video poker is mathematical by design. Certain card combinations come up a
certain number of times in optimal play. Generally, there's only one ideal way
to play a hand. And so forth.

These things occur in an "ideal" world. One plus one should always equal two. So
why is your return so far off from what you'd expect?

The problem occurs when you try to apply clearly defined mathematics to an
imperfect environment like a casino. You might know perfect strategy, but you
can't win if the casino somehow prevents you from doing so. And, as often stated
here on vpFREE, how would you even know what they're doing?

Since we never have perfect information about ANY casino, Indian or otherwise.
We simply hope that gaming commissions, et al will give us all a fair chance.
But, again, you never really "know" with 100% certainty, do you?

For what it's worth, my personal criteria is this: I either need to win (more
than I lose). OR, I need to be treated really well (if I'm losing) in order for
me to want to return to try to win. And, even then, I'm not taking indefinite
unlimited chances.

In response, some of you would say (and have said), "Oh, but Keep playing if
you're losing, eventually the 'math' will catch up with you".

That's certainly true. But that's in a perfect world with perfect information.

Not a casino, Indian or otherwise.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

#2

If you are right then Frank doesn't know what he's talking about. Bob Dancer may or may not know about the rules covering native jurisdictions.

If Frank is referring to Class II games in Indian casinos or VLT's in NY Racinos as rigged or unfair then he definitely doesn't know what he's talking about.

Frank or anyone is free to contact me privately or look at my many past postings on this subject.

···

-----Original Message-----
From: vpFREE@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vpF…@…com] On Behalf Of Natalie Bindner
Sent: Thursday, March 10, 2011 11:24 AM
To: vpFREE@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [vpFREE] Re: Is video poker at CA Indian casinos fair?

I don't think Frank in his radio show was referring to tight or changing
paytables or other things that could be deemed "socially" unfair. Instead, I
believe he was talking about games that deliver cards in a non random fashion
where this non randomness lowers the payback you would expect from infinate,
optimal play. I, personally, have not played enough to draw any conclusions
(although my limited results have been very poor), however, Frank wrote a book
about Video Poker, played professional for along time, and said on the radio in
the presence of Bob Dancer and a Nevada State regulator that he's played games
outside of Nevada that were unfair. That's the reason I brought up the topic.

Certainly, its in the realm of possibility that a) IGT makes machines for
certain casinos with software where payback is less than the paytable would
imply or b) casinos manipulate/replace software inside slot machines once they
receive them. I can't prove that either has ever happened and I recognize that
my poor results are not an indication.

________________________________
From: mikeymic <mikeymic@yahoo.com>
To: vpFREE@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Thu, March 10, 2011 10:27:24 AM
Subject: [vpFREE] Re: Is video poker at CA Indian casinos fair?

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, kelso 1600 <kelso1600@...> wrote:

If you go to the VPFree webpage, and then go to FAQ you will find a discussion
of Indian casinos. This will answer most of your questions if not all.

I'm not sure that questioning the fairness of Indian casinos is relevant. But I
can see why people think that way. There is the implication that casinos will
cheat players unless (or until) they are caught. And, since Indian casinos are
less monitored, BEWARE!

But, it's like trying to solve a crime where the evidence is always hidden from
you. Video poker is mathematical by design. Certain card combinations come up a
certain number of times in optimal play. Generally, there's only one ideal way
to play a hand. And so forth.

These things occur in an "ideal" world. One plus one should always equal two. So
why is your return so far off from what you'd expect?

The problem occurs when you try to apply clearly defined mathematics to an
imperfect environment like a casino. You might know perfect strategy, but you
can't win if the casino somehow prevents you from doing so. And, as often stated
here on vpFREE, how would you even know what they're doing?

Since we never have perfect information about ANY casino, Indian or otherwise.
We simply hope that gaming commissions, et al will give us all a fair chance.
But, again, you never really "know" with 100% certainty, do you?

For what it's worth, my personal criteria is this: I either need to win (more
than I lose). OR, I need to be treated really well (if I'm losing) in order for
me to want to return to try to win. And, even then, I'm not taking indefinite
unlimited chances.

In response, some of you would say (and have said), "Oh, but Keep playing if
you're losing, eventually the 'math' will catch up with you".

That's certainly true. But that's in a perfect world with perfect information.

Not a casino, Indian or otherwise.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

------------------------------------

vpFREE Links: http://members.cox.net/vpfree/Links.htm

Yahoo! Groups Links

#3

I thought you left?

···

On Thu, Mar 10, 2011 at 12:12 PM, Bill Coleman <vphobby2@cox.net> wrote:

If you are right then Frank doesn't know what he's talking about. Bob
Dancer may or may not know about the rules covering native jurisdictions.

If Frank is referring to Class II games in Indian casinos or VLT's in NY
Racinos as rigged or unfair then he definitely doesn't know what he's
talking about.

Frank or anyone is free to contact me privately or look at my many past
postings on this subject.

#4

.....................................................................

Welcome back Bill.

···

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "Bill Coleman" <vphobby2@...> wrote:

#5

There has apparently been a lot of chatter about my brief comment about having played at an Indian casino and questioned the fairness of their machines. Here's the whole story. First is was about 16 years ago. I'll share what I remember.

1. Somewhere near Sacramento CA.
2. The machines were too good to be true. 9/6 JoB with a triple progressive for the RF, SF, 4K. 1% Meter-Rise on each. THAT'S 3% TOTAL. The RF reset to $5,000, the SF reset to $500 and the 4K reset to $150. Yet you couldn't win to save your life.
3. Applying the chi squared test to a small sample of hands revealed that pay cards were coming up about 15% less often than they should have.
4. They were off brand.
5. It was too far from home to worry about. We left it.

It should have been about a 4.8% edge from reset, but we left. That should tell you something.

Now let me be perfectly clear. We did not play enough to be certain of anything. This was an isolated incident in a single casino, and it was 16 years ago. I have not played in an Indian casino since. It is just a personal choice and mainly based on the fact I don't like to leave my cats at home alone.

Indian casinos may now be just as fair as Nevada casinos. I have no direct evidence either way. Oh, and I like broccoli!

~FK

#6

I too have played in a number of California Casinos, and all seems fair to me- except a dumpy place near Sonora: Chicken Ranch. I stopped in one time and found some strange looking machines but with great paytables. After a little play something didn't seem right, so I dumped a paying hand to see what would happen. Somehow my throw away cards came back and gave me back my paying hand. Also, you can run into things like this at Indian Casinos:

http://www.casinocitytimes.com/news/article/woman-loses-car-prize-over-technicality-193723

···

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "Frank" <frank@...> wrote:

There has apparently been a lot of chatter about my brief comment about having played at an Indian casino and questioned the fairness of their machines. Here's the whole story. First is was about 16 years ago. I'll share what I remember.

1. Somewhere near Sacramento CA.
2. The machines were too good to be true. 9/6 JoB with a triple progressive for the RF, SF, 4K. 1% Meter-Rise on each. THAT'S 3% TOTAL. The RF reset to $5,000, the SF reset to $500 and the 4K reset to $150. Yet you couldn't win to save your life.
3. Applying the chi squared test to a small sample of hands revealed that pay cards were coming up about 15% less often than they should have.
4. They were off brand.
5. It was too far from home to worry about. We left it.

It should have been about a 4.8% edge from reset, but we left. That should tell you something.

Now let me be perfectly clear. We did not play enough to be certain of anything. This was an isolated incident in a single casino, and it was 16 years ago. I have not played in an Indian casino since. It is just a personal choice and mainly based on the fact I don't like to leave my cats at home alone.

Indian casinos may now be just as fair as Nevada casinos. I have no direct evidence either way. Oh, and I like broccoli!

~FK

#7

Near Sacremento sounds like Jackson Rancheria. Was at a conference (from Boston) and visited. I remember driving by the nuke plant that was closed and had solar panels around it.

I remember that game. It was legit. The machines were Nevada made. The edge was very attractive. The auto hold was on and you had to watch if hold was correct. My wife hit the Royal. Beautiful area even nicer driving back to Town. :slight_smile:

···

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "Frank" <frank@...> wrote:

There has apparently been a lot of chatter about my brief comment about having played at an Indian casino and questioned the fairness of their machines. Here's the whole story. First is was about 16 years ago. I'll share what I remember.

1. Somewhere near Sacramento CA.
2. The machines were too good to be true. 9/6 JoB with a triple progressive for the RF, SF, 4K. 1% Meter-Rise on each. THAT'S 3% TOTAL. The RF reset to $5,000, the SF reset to $500 and the 4K reset to $150. Yet you couldn't win to save your life.
3. Applying the chi squared test to a small sample of hands revealed that pay cards were coming up about 15% less often than they should have.
4. They were off brand.
5. It was too far from home to worry about. We left it.

It should have been about a 4.8% edge from reset, but we left. That should tell you something.

Now let me be perfectly clear. We did not play enough to be certain of anything. This was an isolated incident in a single casino, and it was 16 years ago. I have not played in an Indian casino since. It is just a personal choice and mainly based on the fact I don't like to leave my cats at home alone.

Indian casinos may now be just as fair as Nevada casinos. I have no direct evidence either way. Oh, and I like broccoli!

~FK

#8

Oh correction. When I said 16 years ago, I should have said, "somewhere in the late nighties". I was with my old partner "The Pumper Thumper", he would remember better, but I can't see how it really matters. It was a long time ago, and not representational of the climate today.

~FK

#9

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "Dave" <haaljo@...> wrote:Near Sacremento sounds like Jackson Rancheria.

That does not sound familiar. For all we know, it's changed names in the long years since I was there. It may not even exist anymore. I have tried but cannot remember the name at all.

If only I could remember all the times I've had amnesia.

~FK

#10

It REALLY sounds like the bartops they had at the Bo's Waterin' Hole...@ Jackson Rancheria..
In the late 90's, I don't think there would have been any other casino in the Sac area...

···

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "Frank" <frank@...> wrote:

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "Dave" <haaljo@> wrote:Near Sacremento sounds like Jackson Rancheria.

That does not sound familiar. For all we know, it's changed names in the long years since I was there. It may not even exist anymore. I have tried but cannot remember the name at all.

If only I could remember all the times I've had amnesia.

~FK

#11

Tim, what about Cache Creek? I've never been there but I used to play poker in Sac, in the 90s, and I remember some of the other players going up to Cache Creek, I think it's in Woodland, just outside of Sac.

···

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "TIMSPEED" <corvetteracing87@...> wrote:

It REALLY sounds like the bartops they had at the Bo's Waterin' Hole...@ Jackson Rancheria..
In the late 90's, I don't think there would have been any other casino in the Sac area...

#12

Cache Creek advertises heavily in the San Francisco Bay Area. It's located near Napa not Sacramento. I've never been there because I prefer Vegas!

James Thompson

···

To: vpFREE@yahoogroups.com
From: bobbartop@yahoo.com
Date: Fri, 11 Mar 2011 21:57:54 +0000
Subject: [vpFREE] Re: Is video poker at CA Indian casinos fair?

      --- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "TIMSPEED" <corvetteracing87@...> wrote:

It REALLY sounds like the bartops they had at the Bo's Waterin' Hole...@ Jackson Rancheria..

In the late 90's, I don't think there would have been any other casino in the Sac area...

Tim, what about Cache Creek? I've never been there but I used to play poker in Sac, in the 90s, and I remember some of the other players going up to Cache Creek, I think it's in Woodland, just outside of Sac.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

#13

Not too far from either one, James, but I think a little closer to Sac. It's outside of Woodland.

···

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, James Thompson <jamesgthompson@...> wrote:

Cache Creek advertises heavily in the San Francisco Bay Area. It's located near Napa not Sacramento. I've never been there because I prefer Vegas!

#14

I don't think Cache creek was there in the 90's but MAAAYBE.
I went to it back in like 01 and it seems like it had just opened...
Cache creek is closer to Sac than Napa (I THINK anyway)
FWIW: I've hit a royal at three different indian casino's here in California...

···

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "bobbartop" <bobbartop@...> wrote:

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, James Thompson <jamesgthompson@> wrote:
>
>
> Cache Creek advertises heavily in the San Francisco Bay Area. It's located near Napa not Sacramento. I've never been there because I prefer Vegas!
>

Not too far from either one, James, but I think a little closer to Sac. It's outside of Woodland.

#15

When we were there way back when, they were not bartops. I don't think they even served booze back then. Had a motel on premises. Being from Boston, we found the "rancheria" concept of a reservation interesting. It is maybe 10 acres of land?

We stopped at a pow-wow at a state park. The park had artifacts including a grinding mound. Their literature said that half of all U.S. first nation population lived in California before the European invasion.

···

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "TIMSPEED" <corvetteracing87@...> wrote:

It REALLY sounds like the bartops they had at the Bo's Waterin' Hole...@ Jackson Rancheria..
In the late 90's, I don't think there would have been any other casino in the Sac area...

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "Frank" <frank@> wrote:
>
> --- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "Dave" <haaljo@> wrote:Near Sacremento sounds like Jackson Rancheria.
>
> That does not sound familiar. For all we know, it's changed names in the long years since I was there. It may not even exist anymore. I have tried but cannot remember the name at all.
>
> If only I could remember all the times I've had amnesia.
>
> ~FK
>

#16

I'm sure it was open in some regard back then. I used to play lowball at the Sundowner in Sac., and that was like '94 or '95. I just remember some of the fellas talking about going up to Cache Creek. I don't know if it was just bingo or whatever. Maybe they have re-done it since then, probably have, but there was something there back in the mid-90s, I don't know what it was exactly. Heck, a lot of these Indian joints just started out with a trailer or a tent. I first went to Sycuan outside of San Diego, waaay back when, before all this Indian casino stuff took off, I mean like back in the 80s. It was just a couple of trailers, maybe three poker tables, not much of anything. Now it's a major casino, pretty fancy too. I guess it's a license to print money. Then grease the politicians, and it snowballed into something huge.

···

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "TIMSPEED" <corvetteracing87@...> wrote:

I don't think Cache creek was there in the 90's but MAAAYBE.
I went to it back in like 01 and it seems like it had just opened...
Cache creek is closer to Sac than Napa (I THINK anyway)
FWIW: I've hit a royal at three different indian casino's here in California...

#17

Well, I mean bar-tops, becuase it was a bar-style..they did and do not serve booze. It was just designed that way, but they just had soda/coffee/juice.
The bartops were there in 98, I can say for sure.

···

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "Dave" <haaljo@...> wrote:

When we were there way back when, they were not bartops. I don't think they even served booze back then. Had a motel on premises. Being from Boston, we found the "rancheria" concept of a reservation interesting. It is maybe 10 acres of land?

We stopped at a pow-wow at a state park. The park had artifacts including a grinding mound. Their literature said that half of all U.S. first nation population lived in California before the European invasion.

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "TIMSPEED" <corvetteracing87@> wrote:
>
> It REALLY sounds like the bartops they had at the Bo's Waterin' Hole...@ Jackson Rancheria..
> In the late 90's, I don't think there would have been any other casino in the Sac area...
>
> --- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "Frank" <frank@> wrote:
> >
> > --- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "Dave" <haaljo@> wrote:Near Sacremento sounds like Jackson Rancheria.
> >
> > That does not sound familiar. For all we know, it's changed names in the long years since I was there. It may not even exist anymore. I have tried but cannot remember the name at all.
> >
> > If only I could remember all the times I've had amnesia.
> >
> > ~FK
> >
>