vpFREE2 Forums

Is JoB REALLY 99.54%?

#1

I was talking with a couple of CET Seven Star rated players and a very
unusual comment was brought up. One of the players is a friend of mine. The
other I just met but my friend knew well. So this guy who is my friend's
friend is a 'professional gambler' and was dropping a lot of names during
his conversation of big-wigs at the CET, Borgata and Revel properties. He
said that the JoB games in AC do not pay out the full 99.54% but closer to
91% in total payout. He says he has this confirmed from gaming heads at
these casinos but I find it hard to believe.
This would mean that the deal and draw are not random off of a standard
deck but would have to be fixed. It changes the game completely to a slot
machine. Is there any way what he's saying is possible? I just don't
believe it.
Stu

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

#2

It just means a lot of people play badly.

Cogno

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-----Original Message-----
From: vpFREE@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vpF…@…com] On Behalf Of S
Merrian
Sent: Monday, August 6, 2012 7:34 PM
To: acvpp@yahoogroups.com; vpfree@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [vpFREE] Is JoB REALLY 99.54%?

I was talking with a couple of CET Seven Star rated players and a very
unusual comment was brought up. One of the players is a friend of mine. The
other I just met but my friend knew well. So this guy who is my friend's
friend is a 'professional gambler' and was dropping a lot of names during
his conversation of big-wigs at the CET, Borgata and Revel properties. He
said that the JoB games in AC do not pay out the full 99.54% but closer to
91% in total payout. He says he has this confirmed from gaming heads at
these casinos but I find it hard to believe.
This would mean that the deal and draw are not random off of a standard deck
but would have to be fixed. It changes the game completely to a slot
machine. Is there any way what he's saying is possible? I just don't believe
it.
Stu

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

------------------------------------

vpFREE Links: http://www.west-point.org/users/usma1955/20228/V/Links.htm

Yahoo! Groups Links

#3

Stu,

There actual income or holdings for the casino is usually 99-96% range due
to a combo of mistakes, people not max betting, and people who do not play
any strategy.

···

From: acvpp@yahoogroups.com [mailto:ac…@…com] On Behalf Of S
Merrian
Sent: Monday, August 06, 2012 10:34 PM
To: acvpp@yahoogroups.com; vpfree@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [acvpp] Is JoB REALLY 99.54%?

I was talking with a couple of CET Seven Star rated players and a very
unusual comment was brought up. One of the players is a friend of mine. The
other I just met but my friend knew well. So this guy who is my friend's
friend is a 'professional gambler' and was dropping a lot of names during
his conversation of big-wigs at the CET, Borgata and Revel properties. He
said that the JoB games in AC do not pay out the full 99.54% but closer to
91% in total payout. He says he has this confirmed from gaming heads at
these casinos but I find it hard to believe.
This would mean that the deal and draw are not random off of a standard
deck but would have to be fixed. It changes the game completely to a slot
machine. Is there any way what he's saying is possible? I just don't
believe it.
Stu

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

#4

As others have pointed out, what the casino makes is higher than the
theoretical payback due to strategy errors and other suboptimal play.

Also, as I understand it, all VP games in Nevada and New Jersey must be
random and draw from a 52 or 53 card deck. In addition, I read that all
games that emulate card games (VP, video blackjack) certified in Nevada
must not be capable of non-random operation at all. (There is a
blackjack machine made in Japan that has a selectable expectation and
therefore is non-random.)

ECH

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

···

On 8/6/2012 9:33 PM, S Merrian wrote:

<snip>
This would mean that the deal and draw are not random off of a standard
deck but would have to be fixed. It changes the game completely to a slot
machine. Is there any way what he's saying is possible? I just don't
believe it.

#5

"In addition, I read that all
games that emulate card games (VP, video blackjack) certified in Nevada
must not be capable of non-random operation at all."

Not sure exactly what you mean by "certified in Nevada" but there is a belief by many people
that if a machine is manufactured in Nevada that it is a random deal. That is not true.
At the present time, the Nevada law only states that a machine manufactured in Nevada must be legal
in the state where it is shipped to.

To: vpFREE@yahoogroups.com
From: echlist@gmail.com
Date: Mon, 6 Aug 2012 23:20:29 -0500
Subject: Re: [vpFREE] Is JoB REALLY 99.54%?

>
> <snip>
> This would mean that the deal and draw are not random off of a standard
> deck but would have to be fixed. It changes the game completely to a slot
> machine. Is there any way what he's saying is possible? I just don't
> believe it.
>
As others have pointed out, what the casino makes is higher than the
theoretical payback due to strategy errors and other suboptimal play.

Also, as I understand it, all VP games in Nevada and New Jersey must be
random and draw from a 52 or 53 card deck. In addition, I read that all
games that emulate card games (VP, video blackjack) certified in Nevada
must not be capable of non-random operation at all. (There is a
blackjack machine made in Japan that has a selectable expectation and
therefore is non-random.)

ECH

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

------------------------------------

vpFREE Links: http://www.west-point.org/users/usma1955/20228/V/Links.htm

Yahoo! Groups Links

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

···

On 8/6/2012 9:33 PM, S Merrian wrote:

#6

Adding to other observations here, I have to express surprise that your well informed friend (and friend of friend) aren't aware that CET has set the theoretical earn on machines with 9/6 Jacks in the AC properties to 0.46% -- a rate that suggests that these machines get nothing but precision play, and that no one ever plays the lesser return games on these machines.

Surely the "professional gambler" is all too acutely aware that play on these machines now returns next to nothing to the player in the form of benefits.

Now, that wouldn't be the case if CET really held 9% of every wager on average on these machines, would it?

···

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, S Merrian <sauronsboy@...> wrote:

I was talkingwith a couple of CET Seven Star rated players and a
very unusual comment was brought up. One of the players is a friend
of mine. The other I just met but my friend knew well. So this guy
who is my friend's friend is a 'professional gambler' and was
dropping a lot of names during his conversation of big-wigs at the
CET, Borgata and Revel properties. He said that the JoB games in AC
do not pay out the full 99.54% but closer to 91% in total payout.
He says he has this confirmed from gaming heads at these casinos
but I find it hard to believe.

#7

Maybe the software now rates casino hold for each game on the machine?

Saw that happen over the years including at Mohegan and LV Hilton.

Last year, Mohegan eliminated points on machines if even one game had an E.V. of ~98%. Curiously, the no points signs appear to attract people that figure the games must be better (and some are). But a lot of these folks are gambling one coin at a time on the games that are much less than 98%.

At the Vegas Hilton, guests discovered the 9/6 JB had almost no theo hold when they got downgraded in club status. Funny thing was the ~100% EV game(s) theo stayed at around 3%.

And here in Boston, the casino commission is taking applications from prosepective licensee's. The application fee is $400K.

···

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "vp_wiz" <harry.porter@...> wrote:

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, S Merrian <sauronsboy@> wrote:
>
> I was talkingwith a couple of CET Seven Star rated players and a
> very unusual comment was brought up. One of the players is a friend
> of mine. The other I just met but my friend knew well. So this guy
> who is my friend's friend is a 'professional gambler' and was
> dropping a lot of names during his conversation of big-wigs at the
> CET, Borgata and Revel properties. He said that the JoB games in AC
> do not pay out the full 99.54% but closer to 91% in total payout.
> He says he has this confirmed from gaming heads at these casinos
> but I find it hard to believe.

Adding to other observations here, I have to express surprise that your well informed friend (and friend of friend) aren't aware that CET has set the theoretical earn on machines with 9/6 Jacks in the AC properties to 0.46% -- a rate that suggests that these machines get nothing but precision play, and that no one ever plays the lesser return games on these machines.

Surely the "professional gambler" is all too acutely aware that play on these machines now returns next to nothing to the player in the form of benefits.

Now, that wouldn't be the case if CET really held 9% of every wager on average on these machines, would it?

#8

I was talking with a couple of CET Seven Star rated players and a very
unusual comment was brought up. One of the players is a friend of mine. The other I just met but my friend knew well. So this guy who is my friend's friend is a 'professional gambler' and was dropping a lot of names during his conversation of big-wigs at the CET, Borgata and Revel properties. He said that the JoB games in AC do not pay out the full 99.54% but closer to 91% in total payout. He says he has this confirmed from gaming heads at these casinos but I find it hard to believe.

Wow, 91% is hard to believe. Even if you short coin ( -1.375%) you would still have to give up over 7% in play errors. That's tough to do in jacks or better.

So, if AC is really holding more than 8% on JOB, they could put in much better games and still make money. I think they should put in 10/7/50 DB and 17/10 loose deuces. With a player return 8% below optimal, why not?

···

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, S Merrian <sauronsboy@...> wrote:

#9

Many years ago, the Stardust had some 100%+ games. I knew some of the suits. They told me that these games had a hold of 4%
This was during a time when the pros were banging away.

···

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "johnnyzee48127" <greeklandjohnny@...> wrote:

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, S Merrian <sauronsboy@> wrote:
>
I was talking with a couple of CET Seven Star rated players and a very
unusual comment was brought up. One of the players is a friend of mine. The other I just met but my friend knew well. So this guy who is my friend's friend is a 'professional gambler' and was dropping a lot of names during his conversation of big-wigs at the CET, Borgata and Revel properties. He said that the JoB games in AC do not pay out the full 99.54% but closer to 91% in total payout. He says he has this confirmed from gaming heads at these casinos but I find it hard to believe.

Wow, 91% is hard to believe. Even if you short coin ( -1.375%) you would still have to give up over 7% in play errors. That's tough to do in jacks or better.

So, if AC is really holding more than 8% on JOB, they could put in much better games and still make money. I think they should put in 10/7/50 DB and 17/10 loose deuces. With a player return 8% below optimal, why not?

#10

Impossible.

···

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, S Merrian <sauronsboy@...> wrote:

He
said that the JoB games in AC do not pay out the full 99.54% but closer to
91% in total payout.

#11

If only $910 worth of tickets are being cashed out per $1000 worth of bills going into the machine does that mean that the game is only 91%? No. Some casino employee's make this mistake. They shuould be looking at total wager instead of the money count.