vpFREE2 Forums

IRS 25% witholding of poker winnings, are slots next

In a message dated 9/6/2007 11:53:35 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
jackiek@ttlv.net writes:

I could easily compare a bass fishing tournament where it could
be said that catching a fish is a matter of luck and therefore gambling.

Except that nobody is winning $8 million at bass fishing. This is all about
the $ involved.

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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

In a message dated 9/6/2007 11:53:35 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
jackiek@... writes:

I could easily compare a bass fishing tournament where it could
be said that catching a fish is a matter of luck and therefore

gambling.

Except that nobody is winning $8 million at bass fishing. This is

all about

the $ involved.

Over 600 players cashed at the final event of the WSOP this year.
The prize pool was above $60,000,000. I think the minimum cash was
somewhere around %20,000. If the rule applied to this year the IRS
would have taken around $16,000,000 out of the poker economy.

···

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, vp1040@... wrote:

>
>
> In a message dated 9/6/2007 11:53:35 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
> jackiek@ writes:
>
> I could easily compare a bass fishing tournament where it could
> be said that catching a fish is a matter of luck and therefore
gambling.
>
>
>
> Except that nobody is winning $8 million at bass fishing. This

is

all about
> the $ involved.
>
>
>

Over 600 players cashed at the final event of the WSOP this year.
The prize pool was above $60,000,000. I think the minimum cash was
somewhere around %20,000. If the rule applied to this year the IRS
would have taken around $16,000,000 out of the poker economy.

I have to correct myself here. The last sentence should read: If
the rule applied to this year the IRS would have taken around
$16,000,000 out of the poker economy on just this one tournament.

···

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "mickeycrimm" <mickeycrimm@...> wrote:

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, vp1040@ wrote:

Are you saying that the IRS will never see the $16,000,000, under the present regulations?

Or, are you saying the $16,000,000 is really only a "paper profit" since some of it would have
been counterbalanced with losses. I guess if this latter point is the case, the money that
would have been withheld would ultimately have been returned to the tax filer and so is not
lost to the poker economy (in the long run).

It seems to me that if someone has winnings, not counterbalanced by losses, there should be
the proper taxes paid, either through withholding or with a standard tax filing. This really
has nothing to do wiith the "poker economy", or am I missing something?

..... bl

···

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "mickeycrimm" <mickeycrimm@...> wrote:

I have to correct myself here. The last sentence should read: If
the rule applied to this year the IRS would have taken around
$16,000,000 out of the poker economy on just this one tournament.

Fishing tournaments have place prizes in the millions, but you are right, nobody is winning 8 million.
I made that statement to show that IN COURT, skill rather than luck wins tournaments, and as
you pointed out, golf, billiards, etc. tournaments are not gambling whereas a fishing tournament has
all the same conditions as a poker tournament (regarding the "gambling" theory).

···

----- Original Message ----- From: "mickeycrimm" <mickeycrimm@yahoo.com>
To: <vpFREE@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Thursday, September 06, 2007 9:35 AM
Subject: [vpFREE] Re: IRS 25% witholding of poker winnings, are slots next

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, vp1040@... wrote:

In a message dated 9/6/2007 11:53:35 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, jackiek@... writes:

I could easily compare a bass fishing tournament where it could
be said that catching a fish is a matter of luck and therefore

gambling.

Except that nobody is winning $8 million at bass fishing. This is

all about

the $ involved.

Over 600 players cashed at the final event of the WSOP this year. The prize pool was above $60,000,000. I think the minimum cash was somewhere around %20,000. If the rule applied to this year the IRS would have taken around $16,000,000 out of the poker economy.

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "bornloser1537" <bornloser1537@...>
wrote:

Are you saying that the IRS will never see the $16,000,000, under

the present regulations?

No. Poker players are like all other enterprising americans. They
have to pay their taxes.

Or, are you saying the $16,000,000 is really only a "paper profit"

since some of it would have

been counterbalanced with losses. I guess if this latter point is

the case, the money that

would have been withheld would ultimately have been returned to the

tax filer and so is not

lost to the poker economy (in the long run).

I'm saying that tournament pool players, bowlers, bullriders, bass
fishers, golfers are doing the same thing as poker players. They are
posting a buy-in/entry fee and gambling that they can win money. But
the new rule won't apply to them. When they cash in an event all of
that money is available for future buy-ins. The rule applies only to
poker players.

It seems to me that if someone has winnings, not counterbalanced by

losses, there should be

the proper taxes paid, either through withholding or with a

standard tax filing. This really

has nothing to do wiith the "poker economy", or am I missing

something?

..... bl

Joe Pokerplayer from Podunk, Kansas has a $20,000 bankroll. He heads
on down to the WSOP for some action, baby. For his few week stay in
Vegas he budgets $2,000 for travel, meals and lodging. Then buys his
way into $l8,000 worth of events. He plays several tournaments and
cashes once for $8,000 and once for $12,000. So now his bankroll is
back up to, er, I mean down to $15,000 since the IRS nabbed $5,000 of
his winnings.

So after the WSOP he heads on down to LA to the Bicycle CLub for
their tournaments. He spends another $2,000 on travel, meals and
lodging. Then fires the other $13,000 at the tournaments. He plays
in several events and cashes once for $6,000 amd once for $8,000. So
now his bankroll is up to, I mean down to $10,500.

So now Joe heads on down to....Podunk, Kansas. He sees the
handwriting on the wall. The cost of travel, meals and lodging can
really eat into a bankroll. He actually showed a $3,000 profit in
the tournaments but the IRS lifted $8,500 from him in the process.
He thinks "Man, if they hadn't done that I could keep on playing for
awhile to see if I could make that big score. If not for them my
bankroll would be at $19,000."

No, Joe is just going to have to wait nine months until tax time to
get back his interest free loans to the IRS. Minus the $840 he owes
on the $3,000 win, of course.

But, Joe still has only paid the taxes that are due.

And, the loans are not made to the IRS. The IRS is only the "middle man". Take up your
argument with the Congress that writes the laws that the IRS acts on.

..... bl

···

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "mickeycrimm" <mickeycrimm@...> wrote:

Joe is just going to have to wait nine months until tax time to
get back his interest free loans to the IRS. Minus the $840 he owes
on the $3,000 win, of course.

Now that's an interesting point, did the IRS or Congress institute this change?
Either of them could, but the IRS can only if a useable rule is already in place.

I think the tournament organizers will interpret this law to mean winnings minus entry fees.
The problem is that Joe will not be able to count the entry fees to SNG where he lost.
Those fees will have to wait the 9 months to be counted in his tax return.

···

----- Original Message ----- From: "bornloser1537" <bornloser1537@yahoo.com>
To: <vpFREE@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Friday, September 07, 2007 12:59 PM
Subject: [vpFREE] Re: IRS 25% witholding of poker winnings, are slots next

But, Joe still has only paid the taxes that are due.

And, the loans are not made to the IRS. The IRS is only the "middle man". Take up your argument with the Congress that writes the laws that the IRS acts on.

..... bl