vpFREE2 Forums

IRS 25% witholding of poker winnings, are slots next

Starting 4/08/08 the IRS will begin witholding 25% of poker
tournaments winnings totaling over $5000. This change in the IRS
code went through with very little fanfare. I think it will have a
huge impact on the amount of entrants in future tournaments after
4/08/08.
The IRS probably grew tired of players reporting little or no profit
for the year and didn't want to chase those down that didn't file.
Unlike slot players there is no tracking system if a player were to
say he lost all his tournament winnings in high stakes cash games.
Of course a slot player can decline to use a slot card but it is to
his advantage as it would show he lost money and it would provide
some proof to back up a gaming log.

Casinos have resisted witholding on slot jackpots. The only money
being withheld is in live keno games. Are we one step closer to
witholding on slot and video poker jackpots. You would have to think
that is the case now that poker winnings are subject to the 25%
deduction. Poker tournaments make up a very small percentage of the
casino's profits. Slots are everything. A decline in slot revenue is
devestating for a casino. That is why they will fight tooth and nail
to prevent the same witholding as poker. It is also why they didn't
put a fight. They figure give the IRS a bone and maybe they will go
away.

I think that if the majority of players were honest about their winnings that this never would have happened.

VpKing77 <vpking77@yahoo.com> wrote: Starting 4/08/08 the IRS will begin witholding 25% of poker
tournaments winnings totaling over $5000. This change in the IRS
code went through with very little fanfare. I think it will have a
huge impact on the amount of entrants in future tournaments after
4/08/08.
The IRS probably grew tired of players reporting little or no profit
for the year and didn't want to chase those down that didn't file.
Unlike slot players there is no tracking system if a player were to
say he lost all his tournament winnings in high stakes cash games.
Of course a slot player can decline to use a slot card but it is to
his advantage as it would show he lost money and it would provide
some proof to back up a gaming log.

Casinos have resisted witholding on slot jackpots. The only money
being withheld is in live keno games. Are we one step closer to
witholding on slot and video poker jackpots. You would have to think
that is the case now that poker winnings are subject to the 25%
deduction. Poker tournaments make up a very small percentage of the
casino's profits. Slots are everything. A decline in slot revenue is
devestating for a casino. That is why they will fight tooth and nail
to prevent the same witholding as poker. It is also why they didn't
put a fight. They figure give the IRS a bone and maybe they will go
away.

···

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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

BTW, FWIW, this has been the rule for horserace winnings for a long time.

···

-----Original Message-----
From: vpFREE@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vpF…@…com] On Behalf Of
VpKing77
Sent: Saturday, September 01, 2007 4:52 AM
To: vpFREE@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [vpFREE] IRS 25% witholding of poker winnings, are slots next

Starting 4/08/08 the IRS will begin witholding 25% of poker
tournaments winnings totaling over $5000. This change in the IRS
code went through with very little fanfare. I think it will have a
huge impact on the amount of entrants in future tournaments after
4/08/08.
The IRS probably grew tired of players reporting little or no profit
for the year and didn't want to chase those down that didn't file.
Unlike slot players there is no tracking system if a player were to
say he lost all his tournament winnings in high stakes cash games.
Of course a slot player can decline to use a slot card but it is to
his advantage as it would show he lost money and it would provide
some proof to back up a gaming log.

Casinos have resisted witholding on slot jackpots. The only money
being withheld is in live keno games. Are we one step closer to
witholding on slot and video poker jackpots. You would have to think
that is the case now that poker winnings are subject to the 25%
deduction. Poker tournaments make up a very small percentage of the
casino's profits. Slots are everything. A decline in slot revenue is
devestating for a casino. That is why they will fight tooth and nail
to prevent the same witholding as poker. It is also why they didn't
put a fight. They figure give the IRS a bone and maybe they will go
away.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

VPKing77 wrote:

Starting 4/08/08 the IRS will begin witholding 25% of poker
tournaments winnings totaling over $5000.

(snip)

Casinos have resisted witholding on slot jackpots. The only money
being withheld is in live keno games.

This is an unfortunate decision for most poker tournament players. I
hope it is repealed or at least modified before its implentation date.

I am unaware of any current witholdings from live keno. As recently
as 15 months ago a friend of mine hit a keno jackpot for
approximately 70K and there was nothing witheld from the payout. Has
the IRS changed the rules in the last 15 months?

Gamb00ler

The rule won't hurt smaller tournaments but it will DEVASTATE the major
tournaments. It will wipe out the TV tournaments like the WSOP.

Imagine being a tournament pro running the circuit and every time you
cash for %5,000 or more you have to give 25% of it to the IRS. It will
destroy the bankrolls of even the above average players. Only a small
minority of players could float it.

Maybe a dozen or so years ago the IRS jumped into the middle of poker
tournaments wanting something like 28% withheld from anyone who
cashed. Their directive came down just before the start of the Hall of
Fame Poker Classic at the Horseshoe. The Horseshoe used to hold the
WSOP in the spring and the Hall of Fame in late summer. The
tournament players refused to play and Binion's cancelled the
tournament. And anyone else who tried to hold tournaments wasn't gonna
get any players either. It was a standoff between the players and the
IRS. The players weren't stupid. They knew what would happen to their
bankrolls.

The IRS finally saw the handwriting on the wall. If they held to their
position they weren't gonna get zilch! Nada!! Nothing!!! So they
backed off by allowing tournament players to keep their winnings but
they had to be issued a W2G for any cashes above, I believe, $600.
Before then W2G's were not issued.

But their was a loophole in the language. Something about the W2G
having to be issued if the winnings were "$600 or 300 times the buy'in."
Most houses honored the $600 rule but some used the "300 times the
buy'in to not issue W2G's.

When the IRS backed down Binion's cranked up the Hall of Fame
tournaments and everything has been lovey-dovey since.

I haven't seen anything in the poker press about the new rule yet.
But if what you say is true, trust me, there will be major
fireworks.

···

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "VpKing77" <vpking77@...> wrote:

Starting 4/08/08 the IRS will begin witholding 25% of poker
tournaments winnings totaling over $5000. This change in the IRS
code went through with very little fanfare. I think it will have a
huge impact on the amount of entrants in future tournaments after
4/08/08.

>
> Starting 4/08/08 the IRS will begin witholding 25% of poker
> tournaments winnings totaling over $5000. This change in the IRS
> code went through with very little fanfare. I think it will have

a

> huge impact on the amount of entrants in future tournaments

after

> 4/08/08.
>

The rule won't hurt smaller tournaments but it will DEVASTATE the

major

tournaments. It will wipe out the TV tournaments like the WSOP.

Imagine being a tournament pro running the circuit and every time

you

cash for %5,000 or more you have to give 25% of it to the IRS. It

will

destroy the bankrolls of even the above average players. Only a

small

minority of players could float it.

Maybe a dozen or so years ago the IRS jumped into the middle of

poker

tournaments wanting something like 28% withheld from anyone who
cashed. Their directive came down just before the start of the

Hall of

Fame Poker Classic at the Horseshoe. The Horseshoe used to hold

the

WSOP in the spring and the Hall of Fame in late summer. The
tournament players refused to play and Binion's cancelled the
tournament. And anyone else who tried to hold tournaments wasn't

gonna

get any players either. It was a standoff between the players and

the

IRS. The players weren't stupid. They knew what would happen to

their

bankrolls.

The IRS finally saw the handwriting on the wall. If they held to

their

position they weren't gonna get zilch! Nada!! Nothing!!! So

they

backed off by allowing tournament players to keep their winnings

but

they had to be issued a W2G for any cashes above, I believe,

$600.

Before then W2G's were not issued.

But their was a loophole in the language. Something about the W2G
having to be issued if the winnings were "$600 or 300 times the

buy'in."

Most houses honored the $600 rule but some used the "300 times the
buy'in to not issue W2G's.

When the IRS backed down Binion's cranked up the Hall of Fame
tournaments and everything has been lovey-dovey since.

I haven't seen anything in the poker press about the new rule

yet.

But if what you say is true, trust me, there will be major
fireworks.

New Tax Law Takes Bite Out of Tournament Winnings
Law Will Require Casinos to Take 25 Percent of $5,000 or More
A new tax code has been released that spells out just how much money
the government will take from those who are lucky enough to cash for
$5,000 or more in poker tournaments.

Starting March 4, 2008, casinos and cardrooms are supposed to start
withholding 25 percent of any poker tournament winnings of $5,000 or
more. This will particularly affect the poker hobbyists who go deep
in tournaments with buy-ins that range from $100 to $550, and of
course those who make their living humping the tournament poker
trail.

Language in the new tax code pointed to a tax court ruling that took
place earlier this year. The ruling held that tournament poker is
not a skillful competition and should be considered a gambling
activity, at least for the purposes of taxation.

The law requires casinos and cardrooms to withhold and report the
winnings from a player if it amounts to $5,000 or more in a tax
year. The code does not address winnings from online poker sites or
from casinos off U.S. soil.

Here's an example of how much money the government will be making
off of poker tournaments after March 4, 2008. If the law was in
effect earlier this month, the top seven finishers of the $500 event
that took place Aug. 7, at the Legends of Poker would have paid a
total of $40,221 in taxes.

The runner-up of this tournament, which attracted a healthy 460
entrants, would have taken home $27,972 after taxes ($37,295
before). The winner received $74,585. If the law was in place, that
amount would've been $18,646 less.

The notice that was released to accounting firms this week follows:

···

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "mickeycrimm" <mickeycrimm@...> wrote:

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "VpKing77" <vpking77@> wrote:

Most of us have tax witheld from our paychecks. Why should it be different for poker players? The total tax liability will not change, just the timing of paying some of the tax.

Starting 4/08/08 the IRS will begin witholding 25% of poker
tournaments winnings totaling over $5000. This change in the IRS
code went through with very little fanfare. I think it will have a
huge impact on the amount of entrants in future tournaments after
4/08/08.

The rule won't hurt smaller tournaments but it will DEVASTATE the major
tournaments. It will wipe out the TV tournaments like the WSOP.

Imagine being a tournament pro running the circuit and every time you
cash for %5,000 or more you have to give 25% of it to the IRS. It will
destroy the bankrolls of even the above average players. Only a small
minority of players could float it.

Maybe a dozen or so years ago the IRS jumped into the middle of poker
tournaments wanting something like 28% withheld from anyone who
cashed. Their directive came down just before the start of the Hall of
Fame Poker Classic at the Horseshoe. The Horseshoe used to hold the
WSOP in the spring and the Hall of Fame in late summer. The
tournament players refused to play and Binion's cancelled the
tournament. And anyone else who tried to hold tournaments wasn't gonna
get any players either. It was a standoff between the players and the
IRS. The players weren't stupid. They knew what would happen to their
bankrolls.

The IRS finally saw the handwriting on the wall. If they held to their
position they weren't gonna get zilch! Nada!! Nothing!!! So they
backed off by allowing tournament players to keep their winnings but
they had to be issued a W2G for any cashes above, I believe, $600.
Before then W2G's were not issued.

But their was a loophole in the language. Something about the W2G
having to be issued if the winnings were "$600 or 300 times the buy'in."
Most houses honored the $600 rule but some used the "300 times the
buy'in to not issue W2G's.

When the IRS backed down Binion's cranked up the Hall of Fame
tournaments and everything has been lovey-dovey since.

I haven't seen anything in the poker press about the new rule yet.
But if what you say is true, trust me, there will be major
fireworks.

···

mickeycrimm <mickeycrimm@yahoo.com> wrote: --- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "VpKing77" <vpking77@...> wrote:

---------------------------------
Luggage? GPS? Comic books?
Check out fitting gifts for grads at Yahoo! Search.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Sigh! So true, so true. IMO, this is one of the most dastardly deeds done to us by the
Congress (AM is the second...<smile>).

Can you imagine what the outcry woould be if automatic withholding was not done and we
had to write out a monthly or a quarterly check to the IRS for our "income taxes".

..... bl

···

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, pesach kremen <royalflush2222@...> wrote:

Most of us have tax witheld from our paychecks.

Of course, I meant to type "AMT". Apologies for wasted bandwidth.

..... bl

···

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "bornloser1537" <bornloser1537@...> wrote:

(AM is the second...<smile>).

different for poker players? The total tax liability will not change,
just the timing of paying some of the tax.

Because poker playing is not like a regular paycheck, it's gambling,
and therefore, bankroll, a concept which most gamblers don't even
understand, is critical.

···

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, pesach kremen <royalflush2222@...> wrote:

Most of us have tax witheld from our paychecks. Why should it be

Most of us have tax witheld from our paychecks. Why should it be

different for poker players? The total tax liability will not change,
just the timing of paying some of the tax.

Because it is different for tournament pool players, bowlers, golfers,
etc. They are not getting the same treatment. The IRS is doing it
for one reason--They got a favorable ruling in Tax Court. The Tax
Court, according to VpKing77's post, has said that poker tournaments
are luck not skill (what a joke!!!). So the IRS is doing it's usual
money grab. Ironically, it was a poker player, Billy Baxter, who took
the IRS to court about twenty years ago saying he had a right to deduct
his losing poker sessions as a business expense. The IRS thought he
should have to pay taxes on his winning sessions but couldn't deduct
his lossing sessions (what a joke!!). He won the case. But the ruling
was for cash games.

I've given some more thought to what tournament players will do this
time around. I don't think there will be a united front this time.
Many of the top players have too much at stake. Many are getting a
free ride through corporate sponsorship (Their buy-ins are paid for
them).

It's in the grapevine that Danial Negreanu got $5,000,000 for the
Pokerstars commercials currentlly on television. So many of the top
pros will have a cavalier attitude toward the new ruling.

The one entity that has the power to kill the poker boom is the IRS.
And it looks like they are on their way to doing it.

···

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, pesach kremen <royalflush2222@...> wrote:

From past experience in life, I can make an educated guess as to what will happen.
This whole issue is about money and no one forcibly gives up money without a fight.
So, some player, organization, or business will simply challenge the ruling in court.
They will also seek a restraining order to prevent the IRS from collecting this
withholding until a court decision is reached.

One of the issues that will be hotly contested is whether or not poker games are
contests of skill. I could easily compare a bass fishing tournament where it could
be said that catching a fish is a matter of luck and therefore gambling.

···

----- Original Message ----- From: "mickeycrimm" <mickeycrimm@yahoo.com>
To: <vpFREE@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Thursday, September 06, 2007 5:48 AM
Subject: [vpFREE] Re: IRS 25% witholding of poker winnings, are slots next

I've given some more thought to what tournament players will do this time around. I don't think there will be a united front this time. Many of the top players have too much at stake. Many are getting a free ride through corporate sponsorship (Their buy-ins are paid for them).