vpFREE2 Forums

Indian casinos

#1

This is a huge deterrent. Imagine what would happen to their customer base
if word got out that they were tampering with their machines in order to
increase their win. Remember what happened to Greektown when they foolishly
threw out (and marched out) a few lucky gamblers for the simple crime of winning.
It cost them millions, and that wasn't as bad as reports of tampering would
be.

- Brian in MI

vphobby2 writes:

4. If caught, there would be major repercussions including shutting
down their money factories (casinos).

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#2

This is a huge deterrent. Imagine what would happen to their

customer base

if word got out that they were tampering with their machines in

order to

increase their win. Remember what happened to Greektown when they

foolishly

threw out (and marched out) a few lucky gamblers for the simple

crime of winning.

It cost them millions, and that wasn't as bad as reports of

tampering would

be.

- Brian in MI

vphobby2 writes:

4. If caught, there would be major repercussions including

shutting

down their money factories (casinos).

Plus, has anyone ever been documented as not having a fair game.
Many are alleged, but I am not aware of any proven. Could have been,
but I am not aware of any.

···

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, Marksalot300@... wrote:

#3

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "deuceswild1000" <deuceswild1000@...>
wrote:

Plus, has anyone ever been documented as not having a fair game.
Many are alleged, but I am not aware of any proven. Could have been,
but I am not aware of any.

???

Indian -> Class II (in operation, still hasn't been officially defined
yet)
Nevada -> Larry Volk, rigged Venetian drawing, Ronald Harris, etc.

#4

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "nightoftheiguana2000"
<nightoftheiguana2000@...> wrote:

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "deuceswild1000" <deuceswild1000@>
wrote:
> Plus, has anyone ever been documented as not having a fair game.
> Many are alleged, but I am not aware of any proven. Could have

been,

> but I am not aware of any.

???

Indian -> Class II (in operation, still hasn't been officially defined
yet)
Nevada -> Larry Volk, rigged Venetian drawing, Ronald Harris, etc.

I will try it in different words. Has any Indian casino with "true"
RGN type 52 card deck machines( and don't play on the words, you know
what I mean) been proven to have gaffed any machines in the 20 plus
years they have been in business.

#5

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "deuceswild1000" <deuceswild1000@...>
wrote:

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "nightoftheiguana2000"
<nightoftheiguana2000@> wrote:
>
> --- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "deuceswild1000" <deuceswild1000@>
> wrote:
> > Plus, has anyone ever been documented as not having a fair game.
> > Many are alleged, but I am not aware of any proven. Could have
been,
> > but I am not aware of any.
>
> ???
>
> Indian -> Class II (in operation, still hasn't been officially defined
> yet)
> Nevada -> Larry Volk, rigged Venetian drawing, Ronald Harris, etc.
>

I will try it in different words. Has any Indian casino with "true"
RGN type 52 card deck machines( and don't play on the words, you know
what I mean) been proven to have gaffed any machines in the 20 plus
years they have been in business.

I guess you're trying to ask are there any Class III machines that
have been proven to be gaffed outside of Nevada? (It's proven some
were gaffed in the state of Nevada). Nothing comes to mind, but I'm
sure there are cases. Money and crime go together for some reason.

#6

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "nightoftheiguana2000"
<nightoftheiguana2000@...> wrote:

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "deuceswild1000" <deuceswild1000@>
wrote:
>
> --- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "nightoftheiguana2000"
> <nightoftheiguana2000@> wrote:
> >
> > --- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "deuceswild1000"

<deuceswild1000@>

> > wrote:
> > > Plus, has anyone ever been documented as not having a fair

game.

> > > Many are alleged, but I am not aware of any proven. Could

have

> been,
> > > but I am not aware of any.
> >
> > ???
> >
> > Indian -> Class II (in operation, still hasn't been officially

defined

> > yet)
> > Nevada -> Larry Volk, rigged Venetian drawing, Ronald Harris,

etc.

> >
>
> I will try it in different words. Has any Indian casino

with "true"

> RGN type 52 card deck machines( and don't play on the words, you

know

> what I mean) been proven to have gaffed any machines in the 20

plus

> years they have been in business.

I guess you're trying to ask are there any Class III machines that
have been proven to be gaffed outside of Nevada? (It's proven some
were gaffed in the state of Nevada). Nothing comes to mind, but I'm
sure there are cases. Money and crime go together for some reason.

In my question see the word Indian

#7

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "deuceswild1000" <deuceswild1000@...>
wrote:

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "nightoftheiguana2000"
<nightoftheiguana2000@> wrote:
>
> --- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "deuceswild1000" <deuceswild1000@>
> wrote:
> >
> > --- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "nightoftheiguana2000"
> > <nightoftheiguana2000@> wrote:
> > >
> > > --- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "deuceswild1000"
<deuceswild1000@>
> > > wrote:
> > > > Plus, has anyone ever been documented as not having a fair
game.
> > > > Many are alleged, but I am not aware of any proven. Could
have
> > been,
> > > > but I am not aware of any.
> > >
> > > ???
> > >
> > > Indian -> Class II (in operation, still hasn't been officially
defined
> > > yet)
> > > Nevada -> Larry Volk, rigged Venetian drawing, Ronald Harris,
etc.
> > >
> >
> > I will try it in different words. Has any Indian casino
with "true"
> > RGN type 52 card deck machines( and don't play on the words, you
know
> > what I mean) been proven to have gaffed any machines in the 20
plus
> > years they have been in business.
>
> I guess you're trying to ask are there any Class III machines that
> have been proven to be gaffed outside of Nevada? (It's proven some
> were gaffed in the state of Nevada). Nothing comes to mind, but I'm
> sure there are cases. Money and crime go together for some reason.
>

In my question see the word Indian

"Class III" is an Indian designation. It refers to Nevada legal
machines in use in Indian gaming.

#8

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "nightoftheiguana2000"
<nightoftheiguana2000@...> wrote:

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "deuceswild1000" <deuceswild1000@>
wrote:
>
> --- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "nightoftheiguana2000"
> <nightoftheiguana2000@> wrote:
> >
> > --- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "deuceswild1000"

<deuceswild1000@>

> > wrote:
> > >
> > > --- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "nightoftheiguana2000"
> > > <nightoftheiguana2000@> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > --- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "deuceswild1000"
> <deuceswild1000@>
> > > > wrote:
> > > > > Plus, has anyone ever been documented as not having a

fair

> game.
> > > > > Many are alleged, but I am not aware of any proven.

Could

> have
> > > been,
> > > > > but I am not aware of any.
> > > >
> > > > ???
> > > >
> > > > Indian -> Class II (in operation, still hasn't been

officially

> defined
> > > > yet)
> > > > Nevada -> Larry Volk, rigged Venetian drawing, Ronald

Harris,

> etc.
> > > >
> > >
> > > I will try it in different words. Has any Indian casino
> with "true"
> > > RGN type 52 card deck machines( and don't play on the words,

you

> know
> > > what I mean) been proven to have gaffed any machines in the

20

> plus
> > > years they have been in business.
> >
> > I guess you're trying to ask are there any Class III machines

that

> > have been proven to be gaffed outside of Nevada? (It's proven

some

> > were gaffed in the state of Nevada). Nothing comes to mind, but

I'm

> > sure there are cases. Money and crime go together for some

reason.

> >
>
>
> In my question see the word Indian

"Class III" is an Indian designation. It refers to Nevada legal
machines in use in Indian gaming.

  Class III or what ever you want to call them. My question has any
Indian casino been found to have gaffed machines of the type expected
to be random and of a regular deck of cards. Like I said, you know
what I mean, and I would suspect most on here also do as well.

#9

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "deuceswild1000" <deuceswild1000@...>
wrote:

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "nightoftheiguana2000"
<nightoftheiguana2000@> wrote:
>
> --- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "deuceswild1000" <deuceswild1000@>
> wrote:
> >
> > --- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "nightoftheiguana2000"
> > <nightoftheiguana2000@> wrote:
> > >
> > > --- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "deuceswild1000"
<deuceswild1000@>
> > > wrote:
> > > >
> > > > --- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "nightoftheiguana2000"
> > > > <nightoftheiguana2000@> wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > --- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "deuceswild1000"
> > <deuceswild1000@>
> > > > > wrote:
> > > > > > Plus, has anyone ever been documented as not having a
fair
> > game.
> > > > > > Many are alleged, but I am not aware of any proven.
Could
> > have
> > > > been,
> > > > > > but I am not aware of any.
> > > > >
> > > > > ???
> > > > >
> > > > > Indian -> Class II (in operation, still hasn't been
officially
> > defined
> > > > > yet)
> > > > > Nevada -> Larry Volk, rigged Venetian drawing, Ronald
Harris,
> > etc.
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > > I will try it in different words. Has any Indian casino
> > with "true"
> > > > RGN type 52 card deck machines( and don't play on the words,
you
> > know
> > > > what I mean) been proven to have gaffed any machines in the
20
> > plus
> > > > years they have been in business.
> > >
> > > I guess you're trying to ask are there any Class III machines
that
> > > have been proven to be gaffed outside of Nevada? (It's proven
some
> > > were gaffed in the state of Nevada). Nothing comes to mind, but
I'm
> > > sure there are cases. Money and crime go together for some
reason.
> > >
> >
> >
> > In my question see the word Indian
>
> "Class III" is an Indian designation. It refers to Nevada legal
> machines in use in Indian gaming.
>
  Class III or what ever you want to call them. My question has any
Indian casino been found to have gaffed machines of the type expected
to be random and of a regular deck of cards. Like I said, you know
what I mean, and I would suspect most on here also do as well.

I already answered that question. They are called Class II machines
and are legal in some Indian casinos but would be considered gaffed in
Nevada, New Jersey, Mississippi. The typical way to identify a Class
II machine is that if you throw away a made pair, such as two pair,
you will be dealt back two pair or better. A Class II machine
predetermines what your result is, independent of how you actually play.

#10

http://www.lvrj.com/business/17905819.html

"Indian-gaming regulator fights tribe consultation bill"

"Rahall also cited last year's decision by the National Indian Gaming
Commission to redefine Class II, or non-casino gambling operations,
such as tribal bingo. The new definition would classify electronic
bingo machines as Class III gaming, which would require them to be
regulated like casinos and "negatively impact the revenues of Indian
tribes.""

#11

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "nightoftheiguana2000"
<nightoftheiguana2000@...> wrote:

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "deuceswild1000" <deuceswild1000@>
wrote:
>
> --- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "nightoftheiguana2000"
> <nightoftheiguana2000@> wrote:
> >
> > --- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "deuceswild1000"

<deuceswild1000@>

> > wrote:
> > >
> > > --- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "nightoftheiguana2000"
> > > <nightoftheiguana2000@> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > --- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "deuceswild1000"
> <deuceswild1000@>
> > > > wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > --- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "nightoftheiguana2000"
> > > > > <nightoftheiguana2000@> wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > --- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "deuceswild1000"
> > > <deuceswild1000@>
> > > > > > wrote:
> > > > > > > Plus, has anyone ever been documented as not having

a

> fair
> > > game.
> > > > > > > Many are alleged, but I am not aware of any proven.
> Could
> > > have
> > > > > been,
> > > > > > > but I am not aware of any.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > ???
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Indian -> Class II (in operation, still hasn't been
> officially
> > > defined
> > > > > > yet)
> > > > > > Nevada -> Larry Volk, rigged Venetian drawing, Ronald
> Harris,
> > > etc.
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > I will try it in different words. Has any Indian casino
> > > with "true"
> > > > > RGN type 52 card deck machines( and don't play on the

words,

> you
> > > know
> > > > > what I mean) been proven to have gaffed any machines in

the

> 20
> > > plus
> > > > > years they have been in business.
> > > >
> > > > I guess you're trying to ask are there any Class III

machines

> that
> > > > have been proven to be gaffed outside of Nevada? (It's

proven

> some
> > > > were gaffed in the state of Nevada). Nothing comes to mind,

but

> I'm
> > > > sure there are cases. Money and crime go together for some
> reason.
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > > In my question see the word Indian
> >
> > "Class III" is an Indian designation. It refers to Nevada legal
> > machines in use in Indian gaming.
> >
> Class III or what ever you want to call them. My question has

any

> Indian casino been found to have gaffed machines of the type

expected

> to be random and of a regular deck of cards. Like I said, you

know

> what I mean, and I would suspect most on here also do as well.

I already answered that question. They are called Class II machines
and are legal in some Indian casinos but would be considered gaffed

in

Nevada, New Jersey, Mississippi. The typical way to identify a Class
II machine is that if you throw away a made pair, such as two pair,
you will be dealt back two pair or better. A Class II machine
predetermines what your result is, independent of how you actually

play.

I do not consider that an answer. You are using words to make it
seem that way. My simple question is, using your definitio, have any
Indian casinos with Class III games ever been proven to have gaffed
any vp games. I do not care if class II games would appear gaffed
in Nevada.

Simple question, seems like could get a simple answer, without trying
kto show put me down.

#12

The answer to the question is no, no Tribal casino has ever been found to be tampering with the machines.

And Night is not correct about Class II machines in that they would be considered "gaffed" in Nevada. In fact, any Tribe can open a casino on tribal land and put in Bingo, pull tab or punchboard games (the definition of Class II). If those games are mechanized in what appears to be a slot or video poker machine, so be it. But they would be perfectly legal here on a reservation.

As I've said many times before, Class II machines and VLT's in Washington and New York States are in no way, shape or form "gaffed" (which implies tampered with in a way to cheat). They operate as designed. However, they do not deal with every card having an equal chance to appear but instead either run a Bingo (or other Class II) game to discover the outcome or they scratch off a scratch-off ticket. Absolutely random and fair, just that the video poker is not a skill game but operates more like a slot.

B

···

At 02:38 PM 5/3/2008, you wrote:

> > > > > > > Indian -> Class II (in operation, still hasn't been
> > officially
> > > > defined
> > > > > > > yet)
> > > > > > > Nevada -> Larry Volk, rigged Venetian drawing, Ronald
> > Harris,
> > > > etc.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > >
> I already answered that question. They are called Class II machines
> and are legal in some Indian casinos but would be considered gaffed
in
> Nevada, New Jersey, Mississippi. The typical way to identify a Class
> II machine is that if you throw away a made pair, such as two pair,
> you will be dealt back two pair or better. A Class II machine
> predetermines what your result is, independent of how you actually
play.
>

I do not consider that an answer. You are using words to make it
seem that way. My simple question is, using your definitio, have any
Indian casinos with Class III games ever been proven to have gaffed
any vp games. I do not care if class II games would appear gaffed
in Nevada.

Simple question, seems like could get a simple answer, without trying
kto show put me down.

------------------------------------

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#13

Thanks for a nice plain simple answer and not a gotcha answer.

DWK

···

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, Bill Coleman <vphobby2@...> wrote:

The answer to the question is no, no Tribal casino has ever been
found to be tampering with the machines.

#14

Probably, most, if any, cheating going on would be employees cheating
the casino.

#15

Linda Boyd has done considerable research on Indian casinos, Class II
machines, etc. Maybe she'll come along and share some information with
us. I found the chapter on this in her book; "The Video Poker Edge"
was very interesting.

Mac
www.CasinoCamper.com