vpFREE2 Forums

In response to your emails

#1

I was trying to avoid superfluous posts for awhile, but I've been getting an influx of supportive emails from my vpFREE friends asking me to stand up for myself and chastising my detractors. I have to nip this in the butt before my in-box fills up.

First: Thanks to all my fans for your support. Here it might be misguided.

Second: Thanks to all my non-fans for your opinions. I believe you have right on your side.

Here's my reply and I hope this puts an end to it.

In support of my detractors: When you are right you are right. I thought I was posting a bit much. Bob thought I was posting a bit much. The only people that didn't "seem" to think I was posting too much was vpFREE. Every time I would post something, I would get a barrage of private emails praising my posts, or asking for even more information. Those of you that didn't like them, were as silent as the grave. This generated a informational bias, which always leads to bad decisions.

Now look at this from my POV:
1. I post something
2. I get a ton of positive emails, thanks and requests for more
3. I never hear the opposing side because everyone else is silent
4. I come to the false conclusion I should post more

I thought I was giving people what they were asking for and wanted. Nothing more nothing less. I'm a gamma dog, and I like it that way.

To my supporters, try to see this from my detractors POV. They see me posting all the time. They don't see all the private emails you are sending me, and they naturally think the worst. It's a very understandable conclusion given their incomplete information.

THE RESOLUTION: From now on I will try to keep my volume of posts down to a more reasonable level and focus on more important gambling issues...and I'll leave the daily stuff to others.

I have to post about the radio-show anyway, that should be more than enough of my silly irreverent dialogue for one week.

If anyone has a question just for me, send it just to me.

I also reserve the right to use vpFREE to ask questions myself. My myopic career as a progressive pro has left huge gapping holes in my knowledge set that need plugging.

Summed up, I promise not to post more than Mickey:) He's your alpha dog and he's a better all around pro than I am.

Most sincerely,

~FK

P.S. Now if you'd like to respond to this, email me so I don't have to post more about how I'm posting less. Irony is ironic enough as it is.

#2

First of all, that was a very nice conciliatory post. I'm replying to it, because I think you may have misunderstood the reason for some of the "non-fans" unhappiness.

I don't think the volume of posts was the issue, but rather the tone of some of your posts. This site is as much a social network as advantage play forum. You have criticized posts that did not have what you perceived as mathematical rigor, and you have done it in a way that comes across as belittling the poster. The two examples that struck me were the recent post by Bandstand about his losing streak and CoachVee's Derby picks post.

Bandstand posted about his frustration with a losing streak, and wondered how unlikely his string of losses was. Your post had the tone that it was ridiculous to even ask such a question if one was playing with a longterm edge. I think each of us has a point where we get frustrated with a losing spell. I'm afraid I wouldn't believe you if you told me you were completely immune to that feeling of frustration. Your breaking point might be much longer than mine or other posters here, but after say 2 years of constant losing, I'm confident that you, too, would run some calcs on the liklihood of losing so consistently. Bandstand asked his question without making any broader assumptions, and a simple answer was the best response, IMO. A reminder of the importance of thinking longterm would also have been appropriate, but that could have been done without denigrating the question he asked.

Regarding CoachVee's Derby post, I have no idea whether CoachVee caps with an edge. But more importantly, he never claimed to have positive EV with his picks. However, I'm pretty confident he has more knowledge about horseracing than the average vpFREE member who might want to make a 'fun' Derby bet. Your 'where's the math?' post and its followups sounded sarcastic and condescending.

If Bandstand or CoachVee's posts had contained an overblown claim of any sort, it would have been totally appropriate to bring out the math armies. But the posts contained no such claims.

I for one would NOT like to see you post less. Just more thoughtfully! You're a knowledgeable AP and I'm glad you're participating here.

These are just my opinions, and I haven't disussed them with anyone else.

--Dunbar

···

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "Frank" <frank@...> wrote:

I was trying to avoid superfluous posts for awhile, but I've been getting an influx of supportive emails from my vpFREE friends asking me to stand up for myself and chastising my detractors. I have to nip this in the butt before my in-box fills up.

First: Thanks to all my fans for your support. Here it might be misguided.

Second: Thanks to all my non-fans for your opinions. I believe you have right on your side.

Here's my reply and I hope this puts an end to it.

In support of my detractors: When you are right you are right. I thought I was posting a bit much. Bob thought I was posting a bit much. The only people that didn't "seem" to think I was posting too much was vpFREE. Every time I would post something, I would get a barrage of private emails praising my posts, or asking for even more information. Those of you that didn't like them, were as silent as the grave. This generated a informational bias, which always leads to bad decisions.

Now look at this from my POV:
1. I post something
2. I get a ton of positive emails, thanks and requests for more
3. I never hear the opposing side because everyone else is silent
4. I come to the false conclusion I should post more

I thought I was giving people what they were asking for and wanted. Nothing more nothing less. I'm a gamma dog, and I like it that way.

To my supporters, try to see this from my detractors POV. They see me posting all the time. They don't see all the private emails you are sending me, and they naturally think the worst. It's a very understandable conclusion given their incomplete information.

THE RESOLUTION: From now on I will try to keep my volume of posts down to a more reasonable level and focus on more important gambling issues...and I'll leave the daily stuff to others.

I have to post about the radio-show anyway, that should be more than enough of my silly irreverent dialogue for one week.

If anyone has a question just for me, send it just to me.

I also reserve the right to use vpFREE to ask questions myself. My myopic career as a progressive pro has left huge gapping holes in my knowledge set that need plugging.

Summed up, I promise not to post more than Mickey:) He's your alpha dog and he's a better all around pro than I am.

Most sincerely,

~FK

P.S. Now if you'd like to respond to this, email me so I don't have to post more about how I'm posting less. Irony is ironic enough as it is.

#3

I never felt Frank was condescending, just blunt.

I never got the feeling he was being 'mean', just stating
his opinion about the situation.

There are more than one ways to be 'right' about things,
and frankly, his one 'offensive' email engendered a lot
of very interesting responses posing the other/oppisite
way of looking at things.

Which Frank replied to very nicely, without even
being asked to, by the way.

···

From: Sai Sai <gofastnismo@yahoo.com>
To: vpFREE@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Wednesday, May 11, 2011 7:46 AM
Subject: [vpFREE] Re: In response to your emails

I was about to post but saw what Dunbar had written and he hit it perfectly. Its not your volume of posts but the somewhat condescending tone of some of your posts. Like I had stated earlier most of the players here play well below 100% machines. Do me a favor Frank and take a look at the photos that are archived and you'll see what I'm talking about. I enjoy reading all posts, but some of the non pros might take offense to your claims of "that play isn't good enough or worth my time."

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "dunbar_dra" <h_dunbar@...> wrote:

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "Frank" <frank@> wrote:
>
> I was trying to avoid superfluous posts for awhile, but I've been getting an influx of supportive emails from my vpFREE friends asking me to stand up for myself and chastising my detractors. I have to nip this in the butt before my in-box fills up.
>
> First: Thanks to all my fans for your support. Here it might be misguided.
>
> Second: Thanks to all my non-fans for your opinions. I believe you have right on your side.
>
> Here's my reply and I hope this puts an end to it.
>
> In support of my detractors: When you are right you are right. I thought I was posting a bit much. Bob thought I was posting a bit much. The only people that didn't "seem" to think I was posting too much was vpFREE. Every time I would post something, I would get a barrage of private emails praising my posts, or asking for even more information. Those of you that didn't like them, were as silent as the grave. This generated a informational bias, which always leads to bad decisions.
>
> Now look at this from my POV:
> 1. I post something
> 2. I get a ton of positive emails, thanks and requests for more
> 3. I never hear the opposing side because everyone else is silent
> 4. I come to the false conclusion I should post more
>
> I thought I was giving people what they were asking for and wanted. Nothing more nothing less. I'm a gamma dog, and I like it that way.
>
> To my supporters, try to see this from my detractors POV. They see me posting all the time. They don't see all the private emails you are sending me, and they naturally think the worst. It's a very understandable conclusion given their incomplete information.
>
> THE RESOLUTION: From now on I will try to keep my volume of posts down to a more reasonable level and focus on more important gambling issues...and I'll leave the daily stuff to others.
>
> I have to post about the radio-show anyway, that should be more than enough of my silly irreverent dialogue for one week.
>
> If anyone has a question just for me, send it just to me.
>
> I also reserve the right to use vpFREE to ask questions myself. My myopic career as a progressive pro has left huge gapping holes in my knowledge set that need plugging.
>
> Summed up, I promise not to post more than Mickey:) He's your alpha dog and he's a better all around pro than I am.
>
> Most sincerely,
>
> ~FK
>
> P.S. Now if you'd like to respond to this, email me so I don't have to post more about how I'm posting less. Irony is ironic enough as it is.
>

First of all, that was a very nice conciliatory post. I'm replying to it, because I think you may have misunderstood the reason for some of the "non-fans" unhappiness.

I don't think the volume of posts was the issue, but rather the tone of some of your posts. This site is as much a social network as advantage play forum. You have criticized posts that did not have what you perceived as mathematical rigor, and you have done it in a way that comes across as belittling the poster. The two examples that struck me were the recent post by Bandstand about his losing streak and CoachVee's Derby picks post.

Bandstand posted about his frustration with a losing streak, and wondered how unlikely his string of losses was. Your post had the tone that it was ridiculous to even ask such a question if one was playing with a longterm edge. I think each of us has a point where we get frustrated with a losing spell. I'm afraid I wouldn't believe you if you told me you were completely immune to that feeling of frustration. Your breaking point might be much longer than mine or other posters here, but after say 2 years of constant losing, I'm confident that you, too, would run some calcs on the liklihood of losing so consistently. Bandstand asked his question without making any broader assumptions, and a simple answer was the best response, IMO. A reminder of the importance of thinking longterm would also have been appropriate, but that could have been done without denigrating the question he asked.

Regarding CoachVee's Derby post, I have no idea whether CoachVee caps with an edge. But more importantly, he never claimed to have positive EV with his picks. However, I'm pretty confident he has more knowledge about horseracing than the average vpFREE member who might want to make a 'fun' Derby bet. Your 'where's the math?' post and its followups sounded sarcastic and condescending.

If Bandstand or CoachVee's posts had contained an overblown claim of any sort, it would have been totally appropriate to bring out the math armies. But the posts contained no such claims.

I for one would NOT like to see you post less. Just more thoughtfully! You're a knowledgeable AP and I'm glad you're participating here.

These are just my opinions, and I haven't disussed them with anyone else.

--Dunbar

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

#4

Hi everyone,

We've been given a voucher for a 7-day cruise on this line, and in researching it I've found a LOT of negative comments mainly regarding rude service by the ship employees, dirty staterooms and bad food.
I know quite a few here have gone on these cruises - have you found this to be true?

I'm feeling a bit leery about it now.

Valerie

__________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 6113 (20110511) __________

The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus.

http://www.eset.com

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

#5

My expectations on NCL are never high since I consider it to be the "Chevrolet" of cruise lines. I have never had a dirty stateroom or bad food.

However my 4-day cruise in March to the Bahamas was much better than my previous NCL cruises and I would rate it a good -- bedding was much better and the food and we never went to one of the upgrade restaurants since the main dining room was so good.

Don't know if NCL has upgraded or it is just luck.

But I would not go on one of these "free" cruises unless you had plans to go on a cruise or vacation. When all is said and done, they really are not free and can easily cost $500 for fees, tips and incidentals plus travel costs to the port.

To: vpFREE@yahoogroups.com
From: vpollard@socal.rr.com
Date: Wed, 11 May 2011 08:52:29 -0700
Subject: [vpFREE] NCL cruise questions

Hi everyone,

We've been given a voucher for a 7-day cruise on this line, and in researching it I've found a LOT of negative comments mainly regarding rude service by the ship employees, dirty staterooms and bad food.
I know quite a few here have gone on these cruises - have you found this to be true?

I'm feeling a bit leery about it now.

Valerie

__________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 6113 (20110511) __________

The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus.

http://www.eset.com

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

------------------------------------

vpFREE Links: http://members.cox.net/vpfree/Links.htm

Yahoo! Groups Links

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

#6

That's pretty much the way I see it too. I think people have misunderstood Frank. First off, it's sometimes difficult to interpret people's tone through the written word. But if you've listened to him on the radio or a podcast, the guy is very light-hearted and seems very good-natured. He's a lot better with people than I am. I would have already told people to go F themselves.

Frank is smart, upbeat, funny, what's not to like? I think he is probably more considerate and thoughtful than some of the people who have criticized him.

···

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, Bruce Cohen <brucedcohen2002@...> wrote:

I never felt Frank was condescending, just blunt.
Â
I never got the feeling he was being 'mean', just stating
his opinion about the situation.
Â
There are more than one ways to be 'right' about things,
and frankly, his one 'offensive' email engendered a lot
of very interesting responses posing the other/oppisite
way of looking at things.
Â
Which Frank replied to very nicely, without even
being asked to, by the way.

#7

Our experience on NCL has varied. The older ships such as the Spirit out of New Oeleans is worn out and does not have a comfortable feel.

We went on the Pearl out of Miami and found to to be very good in every way.

Be wary of all ship casinos.

To: vpfree@yahoogroups.com
From: kelso1600@hotmail.com
Date: Wed, 11 May 2011 17:21:23 +0000
Subject: RE: [vpFREE] NCL cruise questions

My expectations on NCL are never high since I consider it to be the "Chevrolet" of cruise lines. I have never had a dirty stateroom or bad food.

However my 4-day cruise in March to the Bahamas was much better than my previous NCL cruises and I would rate it a good -- bedding was much better and the food and we never went to one of the upgrade restaurants since the main dining room was so good.

Don't know if NCL has upgraded or it is just luck.

But I would not go on one of these "free" cruises unless you had plans to go on a cruise or vacation. When all is said and done, they really are not free and can easily cost $500 for fees, tips and incidentals plus travel costs to the port.

> To: vpFREE@yahoogroups.com
> From: vpollard@socal.rr.com
> Date: Wed, 11 May 2011 08:52:29 -0700
> Subject: [vpFREE] NCL cruise questions
>
> Hi everyone,
>
> We've been given a voucher for a 7-day cruise on this line, and in researching it I've found a LOT of negative comments mainly regarding rude service by the ship employees, dirty staterooms and bad food.
> I know quite a few here have gone on these cruises - have you found this to be true?
>
> I'm feeling a bit leery about it now.
>
> Valerie
>
>
>
> __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 6113 (20110511) __________
>
> The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus.
>
> http://www.eset.com
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> vpFREE Links: http://members.cox.net/vpfree/Links.htm
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

------------------------------------

vpFREE Links: http://members.cox.net/vpfree/Links.htm

Yahoo! Groups Links

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

#8

My problem with many of your posts are. that you just cannot tolerate anyone who gambles "for the fun of it", since you cannot comprehend that. Remember it is those of us "chumps" that buy into all those books written by "the pros". If it wasn't for us, you and Bob would not have a radio show, or income from your book sales that allow you to play $5, and up video poker. That I don't bet on things that eat remark, just sounded like an insult to hundreds of thousand sport fans in the face.

···

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "Frank" <frank@...> wrote:

HE RESOLUTION: From now on I will try to keep my volume of posts down to a more reasonable level and focus on more important gambling issues...and I'll leave the daily stuff to others.

Summed up, I promise not to post more than Mickey:) He's your alpha dog and he's a better all around pro than I am.

Most sincerely,

~FK

#9

I agree %100. He just says he is not interested in any gambling that can't be number crunched, and he really can't understand why anyone would gamble for fun.
There is no way that he was dissing coach vee. He just isn't interested in anything as esoteric as handicapping the ponies. The only suggestion, that I have for frank is to be more aware of the demographics of your audience, both on the air and on this forum.

I guess that talking with Frank about gambling is like talking with a doctor about taking care of yourself. Lose weight, exercise, eat only healthy foods,etc. etc. We do things that we can comfortably live with.

It's not that we don't respect you Frank, but some of us like junk food a little too much.

The man is a pro.
This reminds of a cartoon, picture this.....

Two professional fisherman working away on a big fishing trawler, they look over the side and in the near distance they see a rowboat with 2 guys on it that are happily fishing.
The caption " Those guys must be crazy" .

Frank is on the trawler, most of the rest of us are on the rowboat. The smartest of us will follow the trawler, because that is where the best fishing is.

Regards

A.P.

···

--- On Wed, 5/11/11, Bob Bartop <bobbartop@yahoo.com> wrote:

From: Bob Bartop <bobbartop@yahoo.com>
Subject: [vpFREE] Re: In response to your emails
To: vpFREE@yahoogroups.com
Date: Wednesday, May 11, 2011, 2:23 PM

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, Bruce Cohen <brucedcohen2002@...> wrote:

I never felt Frank was condescending, just blunt.
Â
I never got the feeling he was being 'mean', just stating
his opinion about the situation.
Â
There are more than one ways to be 'right' about things,
and frankly, his one 'offensive' email engendered a lot
of very interesting responses posing the other/oppisite
way of looking at things.
Â
Which Frank replied to very nicely, without even
being asked to, by the way.

That's pretty much the way I see it too. I think people have misunderstood Frank. First off, it's sometimes difficult to interpret people's tone through the written word. But if you've listened to him on the radio or a podcast, the guy is very light-hearted and seems very good-natured. He's a lot better with people than I am. I would have already told people to go F themselves.

Frank is smart, upbeat, funny, what's not to like? I think he is probably more considerate and thoughtful than some of the people who have criticized him.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

#10

Give me a break. Frank is just saying that he is not a gambler. He invests in things with a positive probability of making money. I can't see how that can be taken as an insult.

Regards

A.P.

···

--- On Wed, 5/11/11, pumsparky <dianalnagy@aol.com> wrote:

From: pumsparky <dianalnagy@aol.com>
Subject: [vpFREE] Re: In response to your emails
To: vpFREE@yahoogroups.com
Date: Wednesday, May 11, 2011, 5:13 PM

My problem with many of your posts are. that you just cannot tolerate anyone who gambles "for the fun of it", since you cannot comprehend that. Remember it is those of us "chumps" that buy into all those books written by "the pros". If it wasn't for us, you and Bob would not have a radio show, or income from your book sales that allow you to play $5, and up video poker. That I don't bet on things that eat remark, just sounded like an insult to hundreds of thousand sport fans in the face.

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "Frank" <frank@...> wrote:

HE RESOLUTION: From now on I will try to keep my volume of posts down to a more reasonable level and focus on more important gambling issues...and I'll leave the daily stuff to others.

Summed up, I promise not to post more than Mickey:) He's your alpha dog and he's a better all around pro than I am.

Most sincerely,

~FK

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

#11

It's a matter of preference. We've probably been on 8-10 NCL cruises and have
always found the staff to be very friendly. The staterooms are very clean and
we've always found the bed to be comfortable. The food is okay but some of the
specialty restaurants are excellent. We love the freestyle dining. You eat when
and where you want. The ship is more laid back with fewer rules than other
lines. For example on Celebrity you have a choice of two dining times, there are
2 formal nights and when we went to see what was supposed to be a Rock show in
the nightclub most of the music they played was from the 50's and 40's. For the
$500 or so it taxes, fees and port charges it is an amazing vacation.

···

________________________________
From: Valerie Pollard <vpollard@socal.rr.com>
To: vpFREE@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Wed, May 11, 2011 11:52:29 AM
Subject: [vpFREE] NCL cruise questions

Hi everyone,

We've been given a voucher for a 7-day cruise on this line, and in researching
it I've found a LOT of negative comments mainly regarding rude service by the
ship employees, dirty staterooms and bad food.
I know quite a few here have gone on these cruises - have you found this to be
true?

I'm feeling a bit leery about it now.

Valerie

__________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature
database 6113 (20110511) __________

The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus.

http://www.eset.com

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

#12

I've been on 6 cruises and five were excellent. The one NCL cruise that was a disaster is when I got the novo virus. I was deathly sick and cried screaming to get off the ship. You must wash your hands constantly.
The other negative is that they are ALWAYS trying to sell you something.
I'm taking my 14 yo son to Alaska in June. We are leaving from San Francisco, an hour drive from our house in Saratoga. It is not a comp, but I found a great deal in an email from Princess.

James Thompson

···

To: vpFREE@yahoogroups.com
From: joel0457@yahoo.com
Date: Wed, 11 May 2011 16:04:09 -0700
Subject: Re: [vpFREE] NCL cruise questions

      It's a matter of preference. We've probably been on 8-10 NCL cruises and have

always found the staff to be very friendly. The staterooms are very clean and

we've always found the bed to be comfortable. The food is okay but some of the

specialty restaurants are excellent. We love the freestyle dining. You eat when

and where you want. The ship is more laid back with fewer rules than other

lines. For example on Celebrity you have a choice of two dining times, there are

2 formal nights and when we went to see what was supposed to be a Rock show in

the nightclub most of the music they played was from the 50's and 40's. For the

$500 or so it taxes, fees and port charges it is an amazing vacation.

________________________________

From: Valerie Pollard <vpollard@socal.rr.com>

To: vpFREE@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Wed, May 11, 2011 11:52:29 AM

Subject: [vpFREE] NCL cruise questions

Hi everyone,

We've been given a voucher for a 7-day cruise on this line, and in researching

it I've found a LOT of negative comments mainly regarding rude service by the

ship employees, dirty staterooms and bad food.

I know quite a few here have gone on these cruises - have you found this to be

true?

I'm feeling a bit leery about it now.

Valerie

__________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature

database 6113 (20110511) __________

The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus.

http://www.eset.com

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

#13

I am kinda the same way. I am not even close to Frank in the math department, but since I was a teenager (long ago) I don't think I have ever made what I thought was a negative bet just for some gambling urge. And I love to gamble! But with me it's got to be something I perceive as potentially positive. I've never played baccarat, craps, keno, etc.

But people are different. Whatever floats their boats. No problem with that.

···

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, Albert Pearson <ehpee@...> wrote:

Give me a break. Frank is just saying that he is not a gambler. He invests in things with a positive probability of making money. I can't see how that can be taken as an insult.Â